Knife rework suggestions

Discussion in 'NOTD Discussion' started by JohnyM, Feb 21, 2017.

  1. JohnyM

    JohnyM Member

    I've been verbal about this for some time, they said it's an good idea, write a post, so thats what im doing.

    Right now, knife is an 180° aura, that grants you CONSTANT 70% slow and deals from 30 to about 112 dps (high exp vet, late game). That makes you able to kite every mele dd enemy without taking any damage.
    It requires nothing from player, other than "D" key pressed all the time like MOST PLAYERS DO. If you have keyboard with antighotsing or use macro - it makes it even more trivial. This is no SKILL, this is basically an forward aura.
    It makes LOUD sound per every player using - which in effect end up in pissing off players or forcing them to mute the game (i already requested tone down for the sound).
    It is useless APM eater, some players without doing anything extraordinary get 300-400 apm on chart, just by holding one button whole game.

    Mkay so now my ideas:
    1) Turn it into SKILL - increase damage a lot, increase -70% duration A BIT, increase cooldown A LOT.

    Im thinnking about 3x dd, 4 seconds cooldown, 3 seconds -70% speed debuff.
    So right now you gonna have to time the usage properly, maybe even tank few ghouls before using the skill, so it affect bigger ball of charging enemies. It also gonna give 1 second window for mele attackers to hit the player UNLESS HE GONNA TAKE PROPER PRECAUTIONS which will result in lowering player DPS.

    OR just multiply every number, so it get same numbers as current knife, just give it a proper cooldown.

    2) make it disable other actions - including basic attack, skills, marine actions, possibly user speed debuff during use.

    Try to go on shooting range, shoot with right hand, and keep spasming knife with your left hand and see what happens (pro tip: dont do that).
    Not only it gonna make much more sense, also it gonna force player for a decision, what to do ATM.

    3) mixture of 1 and 2

    So, give your opinions. It's gonna be eazy fix if gonna get green light, so get verbal about it.

    P.S: maybe consider it not hitting mutas. Flamethrowers cant, and modern flamers got 40+ meters of range. No knife can do that, maybe throwing one...
    Last edited: Feb 21, 2017
  2. Pickles

    Pickles New Member

    Hey Jm. In resonance to when you've previously shared this, I'm in complete agreement.
  3. stanK

    stanK Member

    Also could make knife cost energy, as a possible anti-spam measure.
  4. JohnyM

    JohnyM Member

    I dont think energy cost is a good method without other changes. It would probabely end up as "dont use knife as it only waste your energy" instead of skilled usage.
    All of those things were discussed on discord, and were generally appreciated by active players. Those topics are prolly only for ArcanePariah, so he can see the reasoning, support from players, and he can give it a green light. Knife would prolly require some testing first, prolly in that dps calc that stinK made.
    Last edited: Feb 21, 2017
  5. Pickles

    Pickles New Member

    In further agreement here - tweaking CD value in the way Jm is suggesting already considers use frequency.

    Although we could - perhaps - assign CD values as a function of character/class, with specific consideration to major class categories: tank, support, dps, med...

    ...perhaps a bit nitpicky, so I'm not sure.
  6. rockz
    • Donator

    rockz Well-Known Member

    I'm more of a fan of removing its ability to hit air, making the sound 50% as loud, and adding an energy cost of 1. Increasing cooldown is probably also OK, but I think 3s is a bit much coupled with the energy cost.

    Spending 5 energy to save your life is well worth it. I don't think that knife will ever end up as a "don't use knife as it only waste your energy" skill.
  7. stanK

    stanK Member

    I already sent pull request that reduces knife volume to AP.
    Also, blaqk once reworked predator "knife", maybe he has something to add?
  8. ozzy

    ozzy Member

    knife can hold multiple charges
  9. JohnyM

    JohnyM Member

    Yes, that's all viable. Whole point is to keep current damage output and utility, but also include skill factor. So what's the best way to do it?
    Mana resource cost - will allow to spam for prolonged time, but will result in reducing other skills output after abuse. Still abuse happens.
    Longer cooldown - will reduce overall uses, timing can be crucial life/death situation (thats why i think it's best)
    Disabling other skills - beside being realistic, will result in trade in dps for slow - so should also bring the desired effect, as holding the knife wont fix most problems. I think it should be balanced so it wont OSOK ghouls, and this should also work.

    Gimme your thoughts beside ideas, and "forecast".
  10. rockz
    • Donator

    rockz Well-Known Member

    If it has a longer cooldown, I'm still going to spam it with a macro. Still abuse happens.

    If it has a mana cost, I'll use it in life/death/free situations. If abuse happens, it's a detriment to the team and makes you a bad player.

    I always thought that the knife was attached to the suit and was something like a lightsabre or something, hence why an energy cost is my preferred method of preventing overuse.

    Multiple charges a la pathfinder jump will work, but doesn't make story mode sense to me as much as using suit energy. Then again, nukes using suit energy doesn't make sense either, so I'm fine with 5-10 stacks and a 5-10 second cooldown.
  11. rockz
    • Donator

    rockz Well-Known Member

    I would like to implement same cooldown knife with 10 charges, and charges return once every 10 seconds. Anyone opposed?

    I will also remove the air hitting if it's not already done. Stank already pushed the knife volume.
  12. tomazkid

    tomazkid Member

    Regarding removing knife ability to hit air.
    That is unrealistic.
    Knife has short range, so you wield it forward, but can as well wield it upwards = air.
    it is shortrange, so as well you can fight in front of you, by wielding knife upwards you can hit flyers that come too close to you.

    If you think knifing air is unrealistic, then you need to remove the ability to knife parasites as well. They crawl on the ground, and it is even harder to knife worms on the ground without hitting the ground all the time than air ;)
    Last edited: Mar 10, 2017
  13. stanK

    stanK Member

    I'm not opposed to charges idea, but prolly need more feedback than just me.

    As for air -- was this intended by original dev team? cos if it was, were messing with balance.
  14. JohnyM

    JohnyM Member

    Im positive for both changes, but I think it would require some testing first. So maybe upload to PTR, lets play few games there, and see how it really works. I would start with 5 charges, 5 secs cooldown and tweak up/down from there.

    BTW Tom - something that is on level of your forehead is considered hovering rather than flying targer (ie: Perses) so you can hit it with anything including knife on extended arm. So hit paras and perses with knife.
    Now go outside and try to hit a bird with your knife (i only suggest that cause im pretty sure birds are safe).
  15. rockz
    • Donator

    rockz Well-Known Member

    Linnard and some other members expressed concerns about 3 man runs and the necessity of knifing.

    My concern with knife is 2 fold:
    1) it hits mutalisks, which flamers can't hit. Also, balance in NOTD?
    2) it is really a fire and forget skill. You can literally hold down d the entire game and it would help you tremendously.

    If we increase the cooldown, it changes the way knife works dramatically. It decreases the damage output during holdouts dramatically, so instead of spreading little damage over a quick amount of time, you'd deal lots of extra damage and there would be more pockets with less or inadequate damage.

    NOTD is big on cooldowns that are shorter than durations, so I would expect charges to be a similar "you need to save your knife for the opportune time" sort of deal.

    I'll need to find out what specifically is so useful about knife during 3 mans. I know it's very nice for 3 man ECNM before demo gets level 3, but I would expect that increasing the cooldown to 4 seconds would do just as much harm to dps then.
  16. stanK

    stanK Member

    We only expressed concern about things that were obvious, some extra issues:
    1) 1-2 ghouls jump you often
    2) parasites from ags tend to come in packs, forcing charge waste
    3) knife used to charge adren (might be a bug)
    4) knife on recon to kill rocks, ghouls
    5) knife when blinded

    The more I think about it, the more issues pop up. I fear reworking knife will introduce more problems than it will solve.
  17. JohnyM

    JohnyM Member

    More i think about it, more often i come to conclusion that best fix is disabling other marines action as i stated in 1st post point 2).

    Spam knife? Ok, but you dont shoot / do anything else in this time.
  18. tomazkid

    tomazkid Member

    does not cloak count as a marine action ?

    Imho, let knife be as it is, lower it's volume, and then let be.
    Any change to it except for volume will change gameplay too much.
  19. JohnyM

    JohnyM Member

    Yea, agree. Knife should also disable cloaking.
  20. rockz
    • Donator

    rockz Well-Known Member

    The negative aspect of not fixing knife is extremely minor. I won't do this change. Most people do NOT use a hotkey to autocast knife all game. The only time i've seen this actually happen is with surveillance recon on a 2nd computer on a 2nd account, or when I decide to go to the bathroom while tanking and macro sdv.

    About the only change I would make now is to remove the ability to hit things that crowbar/flamer can't hit. It makes the game harder, which is a good thing right? It's also a simple change with little effect, which are the sorts of changes we need to make to this game.

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