Kith's Rifleman Rework

Discussion in 'Class Discussion' started by Kith, Apr 25, 2012.

  1. Lord NiteShade
    • Wiki Founder
    • Community Leader

    Lord NiteShade NOTD Staff: Wiki Founder/TeamSpeak Admin

    Except players are quick to forget, or too new to remember, that way way waaaaaaaay back we did complain that you could use multiple ammo types. That was an issue "back in the day." However, now its just taken at face value.
  2. Kith
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    • Designer

    Kith NOTD Staff: Anti-Fun Wizard Skeleton

    I consider hybrid viability, yes. Of course, hybrids are not going to be as strong as they would be at a single task as if they went full right or full left, but they will have their uses.

    As for everyone else, the reason that I did the things that I did have been outlined in the OP. I'm just going to go ahead and say right now that I'm pretty set in my ways about this rework. I honestly don't care if you like how it is now, or if what we have right now "works". From a design perspective, it's flawed, and I'm fixing that.

    I'll respond to the order flamer/fort demo comparison when I have more time.
  3. ArcturusV

    ArcturusV New Member

    Or that you could have things like High Explosive Hollow Point Full Metal Jacketed Crowbars.
  4. MSluiter

    MSluiter Member

    Then what is the point of having this discussion? Why have this topic on the forum at all?

    This just seems like a big "Fuck You" I'm gonna do what I want who cares about the players.
  5. Khorne25

    Khorne25 Member

    I take it you havent met Kith.
  6. ArcturusV

    ArcturusV New Member

    It's not like he hasn't changed his mind on things before, however he often seems to require a higher level of proof than mere "I like it how it is". Just got to rationalize things a bit more. The discussion might be good anyway. At the very least, you won't get blindsided when you NOTD one day and see your marine doesn't look like you expected it when you picked it.

    For example, one of the things that got this topic kicked off was me mentioning how Sonic Traps are basically the Marquee skill of the Survival Rifleman. It's what you get the tree for. It has the largest effect on the game. And how they basically don't scale to storyline. In Easy Company they are incredibly powerful and have a HUGE effect on the difficulty of the campaign (Regardless of Difficulty), however in Alpha Company and Apollo Security Team they quickly lose out effectiveness across all difficulties. Due to large massive hordes. High preponderance of Ranged enemies, etc. Which is one of the reasons why it now slows Heroic/Massive as well.
  7. ArcanePariah
    • Development Team
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    ArcanePariah Miracle Worker

    MS, you just have to provide fairly logical arguments for most people, including Kith, to convince them to change their mind.

    An example of a bad argument "Don't swap weapon prof to combat, he will be IMBA/OP, screw that"

    A good example would be "Kith, swapping Weapon Prof in its current form will increase the dps of combat to much more then you may intend. If left as, a maxed out combat Rifle would have about 1/2 or more of the opcomms powers, with none of the disadvantages. Combining Rapid Fire + Lust gives you lvl 3 adrenaline at half power (15 stacks at 6% per stack), Surgical at lvl 2 (Crits + Lust + Weapon Prof bonus) and permanent combo reload (Weapon Prof level 2), all requiring no energy management or skill whatsoever (just spam W the entire game)".
  8. Kith
    • Development Team
    • Designer

    Kith NOTD Staff: Anti-Fun Wizard Skeleton

    You cut off the very reason why. "Because the design is flawed, and I aim to fix that". If you can point out a flaw in the design that I've presented over the one that we have now, then I'll give you the time of day. However, if all you have to say is "I want it that way," then I'm sorry, but I'm going to tune it out immediately. I am not here to make designs that cater to the whims of players. I'm here to design things that a professional will look at and nod approvingly, not ask "now why the hell would they do that?"

    You want to know who cares about the players? Me. If I didn't, I wouldn't agree with letting everyone have their say. I wouldn't agree with the idea of working really damn hard to design and redesign entire classes and trees. I wouldn't comply with making everything different and unique and fun to play and genuinely effective so nobody feels left out on a team. I wouldn't be interested in rebalancing everything so everyone has a fair shake, I would exploit the system and rise above because I wouldn't give a fuck.

    Keep that in mind next time you would say that I don't care. I would not work as hard as I do or as hard as I have if I didn't care, and to be honest? It offends me that you think that I don't care. I consider every suggestion from every person, and an admittance that little will be able to change my mind considering the gauntlet this rework has already run is not an outright decline of all future suggestions. It is a warning to people to not get too heartset on certain ideas being substituted. Until you can convince me that the design would be better off how it is now (without comparisons, mind you, because there's a reason why those classes are the way that they are) or that it would be better off with a substitute of your suggestion, I'm going to say no.
  9. SirGalahad

    SirGalahad New Member

    I did skim this back when it was originally posted but it kind of slipped my mind. Anyways, my biggest concern with the proposed changes to the survival rifleman is that he will now have zero DPS. With all other non-tanking support classes, there is some way in which to farm/level. Recon and med have increased shared XP, FS Engy has plasma satchels, Mind Psi Ops now has projections, etc. The new Survival Rifleman has none until his T3. His upgrade to Focus Fire no longer improves DPS (though IFF really really sucks) and his passive DPS skill was removed in favour of a low-damage, moderate-energy cost, single-target Active. This is a step in the wrong direction for a starting class, as killing mobs should be simpler, not harder.

    One solution to this would be to move grenades to Survival instead of Precision Shot. This will preserve the Combat Rifleman's lone disable while granting the Survival Rifle the ability to kill mobs prior to T3 and still support his team in emergency situations (since grenades have no Friendly Fire). Crippling Fire (or traps) + Grenades synergize very well as mobs will bunch up. The Combat Rifle's DPS is weapon-based anyways, and he really doesn't need grenades on top of his Tier1 and 3 skills. Simply modify the Fired Up skill to make it affect Precision Shot damage instead of grenades. Bloodlust already affects Precision Shot so its utility is inherently higher on the Combat Tree. Besides, what survivalist wouldn't carry all-purpose grenades? Just make them thrown instead of launched if Lore is an issue.
  10. Mick

    Mick New Member

    I'm with SirGalahad on this one - well presented argument and all in the favor of synergy.
  11. Kith
    • Development Team
    • Designer

    Kith NOTD Staff: Anti-Fun Wizard Skeleton

    ... lol, galahad. "What kind of survivalist wouldn't carry all purpose grenades?" What kind WOULD? :E

    Either way, I'm going to have to decline. If the Order Flamer can do his job and level (in some cases) faster than an Opsmando by snatching kills with Shatter? The new Survival Rifleman will have no issues with making use of Precision Shot and Focus Fire to pick up kills where he can. Its going to become a question of skill: bad survrofls will level slowly, and good ones... won't.
  12. TuRKeYMaN

    TuRKeYMaN Member

    This ^^^^
  13. ArcturusV

    ArcturusV New Member

    Heh. Gonna just have to learn to use Precision Shot. It actually has no problem putting down midranged threats. Stalkers, Devourers, Immortals, Hulks, etc. Not to mention just crippling an Agron into nothing but a walking target. I've always said it was an underrated talent. That and I think the added DPS from Weapon Proficiency is sometimes over inflated in the minds of it's users. Yes, it's great with a HMG, or relatively slow loading weapon like a Barrett, Stinger, Flamethrower, M45, Shotgun. But only on those weapons. The damage boost itself is typically worse than what you'd get from throwing on an AP Ammo mod (Which you typically won't get as DPS classes will take it up first). It's only the reload rate that makes or breaks it. I do believe Bocete crunched the numbers pretty good and pointed out something like the hugely diminishing returns you get on a weapon that fires and reloads faster than a certain point.
  14. Kith
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    • Designer

    Kith NOTD Staff: Anti-Fun Wizard Skeleton

    Well, Crippling Fire doubles Precision Shot's base damage (before the 25% bonus damage from focus fire), so I'm fairly sure snatching kills won't be a problem for anyone with half a brain in their head. I don't forsee SurvRofls having trouble leveling unless they forsake Precision shot in some way (either they don't get it period or they don't use it once they get it).
  15. SirGalahad

    SirGalahad New Member

    A starting class with 4 Actives needs to be simpler, not harder to play. This is similar to the difference in Tanks from EC to Alpha to Apollo. The T3 Assault sits and does nothing in order to tank while the Flamer must Kite and the Tech must micro Drones, manage energy (cockpit), and Spam-Click. Arguing that a good Survival Rifleman will level while a bad one will not goes against the purpose of a starting class. Grenades are the simplest, most basic skill that even the newest players can grasp, and should go on the tree that actually requires some thought to play well (trap placement, energy management, repulse range vs. press f/w to win).
  16. ArcturusV

    ArcturusV New Member

    That said... When I do play with new recruits (Which is a majority of the time I play due to scheduling among other things), they don't go survival unless someone is telling them to. And if you are telling them to go down a tree, you can at least explain how to optimally use it in general enough terms that someone of average intellect can perform well.

    New players however, without guidance, will tend to go Combat the vast majority of the time. Kicking ass and blowing stuff up is generally more attractive than "Survival" if you don't know anything. Everyone wants to feel like their marine is a rock star, ass kicking action hero at heart it seems.
  17. Blaqk
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    Blaqk NOTD Staff: Operations and Web

    Hey hey hey! Have a nice day!

    Listen up, folks. It's one thing to disagree, it's another to tell someone who is pretty much working for shits and giggles (which is more than I get paid) that he doesn't care about a game. If I see this stuff again fire will rain.

    Carry on.
  18. Kith
    • Development Team
    • Designer

    Kith NOTD Staff: Anti-Fun Wizard Skeleton

    I would be more inclined to agree if the Survival Rifleman didn't not only have a massive damage increase with Focus Fire being available to him, something that's spammable and easy to use, but also increases the damagge per shot (and as Mr. Killwhore himself Stallans has taught us, having more damage per shot severely outdoes attacking quickly in terms of earning kills and exp), but also Precision Shot, something that will be able to severely wound (if not outright murder) Agrons. The tree's primary role is disables (and by extension, support) , and it has more thann enough available to it to help it along with leveling.

    Also, you know, there's also shared experience.
  19. SirGalahad

    SirGalahad New Member

    A starting class relying on skills that no newbie will know how to use effectively is just not a good idea. This isn't like a new Recon going 3 Reflexes and ignoring Countermeasures. In that case, although the team suffers, the Recon at least gets some idiotproof bonuses. With the new setup, any new player who decides to put talents in the Survival Tree will basically be ineffective regardless of what talents they choose.

    The only newbie-friendly skill on the Survival Rifleman is Saline, and I have seen so many Newbies skip it in favour of crappy IFF only to die to venom. Traps are nowhere near as newbie friendly any more, given their massive cooldowns, and replacing the most newbie friendly passive with an Active that requires some skill (must use during Focused Fire, must choose targets, must manage energy since base damage and cooldown are low, and traps/repulse are better) is the wrong way to go. How many newer players (heck, even many 5-10k players) actually use Focused Fire consistently on a Rifleman? You can't leave everything up to the skill of the player on a starting class. The skill of a player should determine the ceiling of a starting class's effectiveness, not its general utility.

    The shared xp comment is just unnecessary. Even in the face of the shared xp changes, NOTD uses a primarily kill-based levelling model. On any non-NM mode, high-profile shared-xp targets are few and far between. Starting classes, at least, MUST be balanced for the easier modes and for newer players.
  20. ArcturusV

    ArcturusV New Member

    There's one issue I have with your basic premise there Sir Galahad.

    This being that the Rifleman will suffer from a condition it already has issues with. Or at least more so. By making Survival in particular "Idiot proof", it incidentally also becomes much, much weaker. The Man doesn't seem to like the idea of Easy things necessarily being Good things. With notable exceptions of "It's Me Again!" and the perception (Instead of fact necessarily) that some people have of Combat Rifleman being "Press W, press F, win". (Reminds me of how people bitch that Protoss in Multiplayer is just "Build Deathball, A move, win"). As it currently stands, good Apollo Security Teams, or Alpha Company teams don't particularly NEED or even WANT a Rifleman on the team unless you are filling out an Expeditionary Medal point. They are seen as too weak, particularly since you have more effective classes unlocked by the sheer fact you can even play those modes.

    You focus on making it idiot proof, you also make it worthless in the hands of good players. That said I can't really figure out why Weapon Proficiency is necessarily being viewed as the one thing that makes the Survival Rifleman work. Do you rush to Weap Prof? No, you rush to Traps. Do we tell new players to rush to Weapon Prof? No, we tell them to rush to Traps.

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