Kith's Rifleman Rework

Discussion in 'Class Discussion' started by Kith, Apr 25, 2012.

  1. Kith
    • Development Team
    • Designer

    Kith NOTD Staff: Anti-Fun Wizard Skeleton

    Traps, as of what I've played these past few games, have been balanced to be significantly better. With a hard cap of 5 per player implemented, I daresay Sonic Traps will cease to be an issue, and then we can move on to bigger and better things.
  2. Ghost
    • Warden

    Ghost Warden

    Since Rifleman has a free slot on the command card, you could actually remove the Focus Fire innate and just have the T1s be separate versions instead which you could both activate? To get to T2 you have to get either anyway.
  3. Kith
    • Development Team
    • Designer

    Kith NOTD Staff: Anti-Fun Wizard Skeleton

    Nah. I like the idea of them both upgrading Focus Fire. Makes for a neat and unique design choice where the player's innate is used on a constant basis for different reasons.
  4. ArcturusV

    ArcturusV New Member

    I agree with that. And it brings the Rifleman closer to the Recon Standard where both trees are okay, and even a hybrid isn't really a wrong choice.
  5. Kith
    • Development Team
    • Designer

    Kith NOTD Staff: Anti-Fun Wizard Skeleton

    There's also that, yes. Hybrid riflemen will have decent damage output while also having reasonable disables to throw out on a consistent basis.
  6. Ghost
    • Warden

    Ghost Warden

    OK, that's fine then.

    As for the weapon proficiency, did you feel that the old rifleman's dps was too low? As far as I remember, you were saying you'd like the Arms Assa to dish out more DPS than the rifleman who was surpassing the Assa in that regard, so having the high numbers on weapon proficiency still (which is now in combat as opposed to late game from survival tree) seems strange to me.

    I would definitely still advise 15/30 to start with and to be reconsidered if there are any issues, which I don't think there will be.
  7. Ramses II
    • Donator

    Ramses II Help, I can't change my title!

    Concept looks great to me, I can see no glaring issues besides the possibility of nades and/or weapons prof being a bit too strong. But we'll wait to see what it looks like implemented and balance from there.

    Do we have any more quick fixes to the current rifleman to hold us until this gets to the top of the priority list?
  8. Ability
    • Development Team
    • NOTD Creator

    Ability NOTD Creator

    Largely agree. The Combat Rifleman DPS may need to tone down a small bit still since there's less micro - for the right effort/reward.
  9. Ghost
    • Warden

    Ghost Warden

    One thing about survival rifle is that combat would pretty much completely eclipse it with the rework.
    Yes it is a disabler but usually dps is more useful and other classes have disables too leading to diminishing returns.
    Mabye buff pshot like grenade was buffed to do additional damage per level?

    Ability: agree. I would maybe remove synergy off nades from fire up other than the existing damage buff as you got the dmg per level already. Otherewise nades turn into a 2nd T3 for the crifle. Maybe also reduce the bonus dmg from fire up slightly.
  10. ArcturusV

    ArcturusV New Member

    Eh. I don't think Precision Shot needs a damage buff. As it currently stands, you can snipe out midranged threats pretty easily providing you have a damage buff of some sort. Hulks, Immortals, Stalkers, Devourers, Stranglers, Huggers, Wraiths, Gargoyles you put them down pretty easy (Or knock them to almost no HP depending on mode/rating). And the slow pretty much takes Slashers, Agrons, Titans, etc, right out of being a real threat to the team. It doesn't need to be OSOK. Think of it instead like being a Kula Diamond wannabe in most MMOs. You deal less damage than the pure fiery doom caster, sure, but you also effectively take targets out of the fight by pinning them in place and applying all those various ice based debuffs.

    Edit: Also, Combat Rifle already fully eclipses Survival Rifle as is. Other than basically an evolutionary throwback in the metagame where kids think they still need Sonic Traps or "GG at Muta" in Easy Company.

    Part of this was demonstrated when Other Arc, perhaps being a little bit of an ass as Flint and I were mocking the pussyfooted super heavy camping style that he imported from EU, declared we were going to Easy Company Nightmare Mode 1950 Squad Rating with "No defensive classes other than one fort demo". Combat Rifle, Nanomed, Arms Assault, SurvCon, SubMM, FortDemo, Combat Engineer, OpsComm expeditionary team. And we were supposed to fight everything "Stupidly" by fighting Airlock waves on the ground floor, Starport on open ground, rush to the Epsilon Download instead of Camping Hill, fight in Apollo instead of camping scrap, etc. He tried to prove that we were stupid dicks and should shut up. Instead we utterly dominated and would have coast to victory other than we foolishly camped in Lab for Black Ops/Queen and the FortDemo got an unlucky Short Circuit, so we were trapped in lab with no tanking and no way to escape to start kiting it out.

    Survival? It's for suckers anyway as things stand.

    Extra Edit: Nothing against Other Arc. He's a nice guy and has a level head on his shoulders. I only point out the above to prove that the metagame doesn't need the Survival Rifle at all compared to the doom that is a Combat Rifle.
  11. ArcanePariah
    • Development Team
    • Map Developer

    ArcanePariah Miracle Worker

    Yeah I was in a bad mood that day I think, or some equally stupid mindset. I did think we were going to do well, just get trolled at some point or another by the usual suspects (Bane train, ninja hugger or some such thing). Anyhow, yes, combat riflman already does much better then trapper, his grenades usually outright kill what traps only delay. AS for EC muta, the need for traps died the day the SMG was made into its current incarnation. Single dps class with SMG will usually annihilate mutas, not much help needed there.

    I do like the sonic rework so far, but just need the trap delay to be 1 second less, at the moment, traps are semi worthless vs chargers (charge lets them get in and attack team in between pulses with ease).

    Trapper does have one major trump card over Combat. Repulse is pretty much one of the best stuns in the game, especially for covering team. Now that traps are not such a massive energy drain on rifleman, probably see more trappers just spamming repulse.
  12. ArcturusV

    ArcturusV New Member

    Does reminds me of an important question.

    How's the Trap Limit going to work?

    Now if it's actually "If you have 5, you cannot build another", then yes, we've created a serious strategic limit that forces Survival Rifleman to put thought into their use.

    If it instead is "If you have 5, you can build another but the trap with the least amount of charges/oldest is removed from game"... then the limitation itself doesn't really do much. A lot of things you mention like dropping traps to stop chase scenes is still 100% viable. And a Trapper only really needs 3 traps to pretty much fully protect the team in most situations, so I don't really see it impacting camping segments either. The increased cool down will mean that they require just a hair more pre-planning before dealing with the full court presses during hold outs as you'd have just a bit more of a window with only one trap covering your position. But hardly a huge limitation in any regard.
  13. Lord NiteShade
    • Wiki Founder
    • Community Leader

    Lord NiteShade NOTD Staff: Wiki Founder/TeamSpeak Admin

    Simple, the exact same way as the Engineer works in having limited numbers of robots. When you make a new one, the oldest one explodes. Same applies to Technician with crawlers. You could make traps use population, and the rifleman builds them akin to any other building, then give the rifleman 5 population, but thats much trickier.
  14. ArcturusV

    ArcturusV New Member

    Not exactly the one I'd favor. But probably the better option for Newbie Friendliness.

    I kinda liked the idea of punishing players who overly trap spammed and found they couldn't place one they needed because 5 were chilling in useless locations.
  15. Lord NiteShade
    • Wiki Founder
    • Community Leader

    Lord NiteShade NOTD Staff: Wiki Founder/TeamSpeak Admin

    No its just much easier to make.
  16. Arturia

    Arturia Well-Known Member

    I recall a short discussion about some of these things on the K Report; I'll just say what I had said at that time and adjust them to apply to now.

    Apply Leveling / Scaling Level buffs to everything. The unique flavor that distinguishes the RIfleman from other DPS Classes, rather than making him be a sub-par Commando, would be having level scaling.

    Buff Percision Shot's slow and damage some.

    For Fire Up, 1% increased damage per level.

    For Crippling Fire, 1% increased slow per level.
  17. Ghost
    • Warden

    Ghost Warden

    Crifle is not a commando. They may both be dps but fill slightly different roles - rifle being constant stream close quarters and commando burst dps and long range wholesale destruction.
    I also feel that the crifle is stronger than need be already and doesn't need more damage buffs such as scaling fireup and the like.
    Only survival rifle does.
  18. Ramses II
    • Donator

    Ramses II Help, I can't change my title!

    precision shot doesn't need a damage buff, in this rework it's not there for killing stuff. With maxed crippling fire it has a 2 second stun, 3 second cooldown, 1(?) second casting time, and 5 second slow after the stun wears off. Plus, shooting that target will also slow it by 35%. Anyone NOT going survival in alpha will seriously piss off their order flamer.
  19. Ghost
    • Warden

    Ghost Warden

    Nah we always go combat (grenade) with order flamer. I feel my order play is pretty self sufficient and doesn't even require a medic or medkits for the most parts.
  20. ArcturusV

    ArcturusV New Member

    The Rifleman isn't what pisses off Flamers in Alpha Company. It's douchebag Field Engineers who screw them with Pathing Blocking (I need to get to that Firewave bubble... THE FUCK IS ALL THIS MINDJACKED STUFF DOING TAKING UP ALL THE SPACE!!! And the only Alpha Company member that can actually get Tower Blocked as the others are small enough to squeeze around them), Scumbag FOs who decide they have to drop all their AoE Doom Templates right next to/on top of the Flamethrower, OpsComms who do the same, and SubMMs that run out in front of them to cloak whore up mobs robbing the Flamethrower of the few segments where he actually has enemies in his wheelhouse and isn't having the AoE Doom marines screwing them out of it with unnecessarily close targeting. :p

    Though having Survival will be nice for Immortal Killing, and I'd appreciate that.

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