Kith's Rifleman Rework

Discussion in 'Class Discussion' started by Kith, Apr 25, 2012.

  1. Arturia

    Arturia Well-Known Member

    Go whine about faith as well then. Its another T3 dealing high ass damage, healing allies, and stunning for a long period of time.

    Call orderbat a free way to defend DPS even if there isn't plenty. 7 seconds of free DPS.

    You're trying to nerf something that's already hardly played. Raising its "skill cap" isn't what Ramses' suggestion does, unless you mean its only useful when you get 2x survival rifles, and kinda shitty if you don't.

    You only reinforced the point that survival rifle is shit, because in sec, you over level and gain all of the major advantages of survival rifle, hence nobody has a reason to go survival rifle at the start.

    2 second stun & -10 armor < 7 second stun & 777 damage.
  2. Ramses II
    • Donator

    Ramses II Help, I can't change my title!

    Yeah sure, orderbat is overpowered too. I've been saying orderbat and demotank are overpowered for ages. Hell, they're worse than motmtech ever was, excluding shiva abuse.

    Repulse has a shorter cooldown, is less energy intensive, and doesn't hurt the survrifle. Besides, what good is the minute amount of damage from repulse actually gonna do you? In addition, my initial suggestion was about pshot, not repulse.
  3. Scorpione

    Scorpione Well-Known Member

    Because in sec with hades 1 and 2 at 200k hp just - armor doesn't cut it.
    Also since its rifle rework time get 1 done 1st?
    Course orderbat is op and pyro kinda sucks. Demotank is imba and explo is meh.
    Ramses point is that Pshot is missing something.
    My point is that repulses aoe = fee 2second stun that can be spammed every 10seconds. I don't mind the stun on stuff like zombies, but being able 2 stun anything for that cost is meh.
  4. Kith
    • Development Team
    • Designer

    Kith NOTD Staff: Anti-Fun Wizard Skeleton

    Read through the arguments and played some SurvRifle, my stance on nerfing SurvRifle has gone from "indifferent" to "absolutely not".

    Repulse is not overpowered. Precision Shot is not overpowered either. The Survival Rifleman is not strictly support, he is a support caster. Even in games such as DOTA and League of Legends, most support casters have attacking methods. I'm not going to condone nerfing any aspect of the Survival Rifleman.
  5. Scorpione

    Scorpione Well-Known Member

    I don't usually see people that stick near surv rifle after level 5-9 get any/many hits.
    Side note: I don't recall this being dota/LoL
  6. ArcanePariah
    • Development Team
    • Map Developer

    ArcanePariah Miracle Worker

    As for the somewhat original topic, relating the pool, going to go with a little bit of both given the poll results. Going to make Weapon Prof buff reload by 17.5/35% and increase FF duration by 1/2 seconds.

    As for trapper, I would wait till after I do some AI reworks. See how things are then (Evil Laugh here).
  7. Kith
    • Development Team
    • Designer

    Kith NOTD Staff: Anti-Fun Wizard Skeleton

    Yeah, that's the point of having a supporting class, and that's the Surv Rifle's unique style of support.

    Side note: You're correct, it's not. But that doesn't mean that we can't take valuable lessons from these games in terms of design and functionality. Being so narrow minded about a good concept because it came from somewhere else is stupid.
  8. Arturia

    Arturia Well-Known Member

    What does hits taken have to do with anything? Cloaked recons don't take that many hits either.

    Side note: he's referring to the fact that a support doesn't have to be exclusively support and that many games having supports not being limited to supporting exclusively. Medic's probably the only pure support with no way to dish out damage when going Field Aid.

    @Ramses, I was addressing both you and scorpoine with that post. He was saying repulse was OP, I was saying that it isn't in comparison to the only other similar T3. And he just said himself that combat rifle > survival rifle, because survival rifle does jack shit VS hades, repulse included. Hell, path jumps were similar to repulse, if not more spammy and OP until we changed stun to slow.

    As far as your percision shot idea goes, its OP if you get 2 survey rifles, semi useful but shitty if you don't. It just becomes a sustainable single target stun/slow, only useful vs bosses & immortals, and doesn't really do anything else. Its fine as it is, not to mention your change would make survival rifle have a really hard time leveling. Survival rifle was supposed to be a jack of all trades type class. Why don't we just remove saline, considering it doesn't do much supporting for a skill.

    P-Shots damage is there because rifle lost free passive damage. He needs something to mitigate that. He doesn't get bonus exp, and is already underplayed. If you had to play rifleman in exped nightmare, which tree would you go. Why?

    Its probably going to be combat, because the DPS is better than the weak support survival offers. How would your P-Shot change the fact that his support is still half-assed?
  9. DLINK

    DLINK Well-Known Member

    Ap, if you really want to nerf surv in terms of mobility then decrease the repulse movespeed bonus to 30/35%, increase mana cost to 30 and/or increase cooldown to 15 instead of 12. Now you have less spam, less movement utility and more judgement in when to use.

    As for pshot, im actually apalled you want to take away its damage ozy, considering (if I remember correctly) you once suggested to use ff to buff it so it could pierce for aoe damage :p

    Personally, I think prec shot is fine as it is. It is VERY energy intensive to continuously stun bosses, and even more so in rotation with repulse. Also, the only time you see surv's damage output actually making a dent is in recruit (see pf damage for argument). The only things prec shots could actually hurt are mutas/stalkers/immos anyways.
  10. Scorpione

    Scorpione Well-Known Member

    What does mobcon have anything to do here? Sure escape for 10 seconds to help team wow. Traps and repulse much more use. Not taking many hits meaning it allows you to scrap a medic wthout facing much issues in the long run or using much kits. Mass mobs come you place a trap. Anything gets too close you use repulse. Not only stuff like immortals and hulks usually die or take plenty of damage but also a 2second stun for that radius.. zzz. Can easily make a difference with someone who has a slight clue on what they are doing.

    I'm not saying its OP in the way you are understanding it. I am saying: effects + aoe area to energy cost and cooldown value is fairly not balanced.
    Edit: when something is spammable with those effects it can be considered imbalanced.
  11. ImaDomo
    • Donator

    ImaDomo Clad In Armour

    Sigh just leave Rotfl as it is now, it good, Kith did a good job rmking rotfl. Since I played rotfl the most out of all the classes, probably more than you all. My opinion is it's fine the way it is now. It's balance, and surv is its unique support like Kith said. Also rotfl might regen fast but at most it like 145 eng with eng maxed out. Traps cost 55 eng and repulse like 25, p-shot like 10. Not as spam able as it seems. Sure you can spam p-shot but repulse not as much if u use in conjunction with traps.
  12. Extifer
    • Warden
    • Donator

    Extifer Stiffy is what Lyanden calls me.

    Playing a class a thousand times, doesn't mean anything other than your're most likely proficient at that class. You should be playing a variety of classes to see how they balance out towards one another.

    Hence that is why most balancing proposals are done by black ops members in this community as they don't particularly stick to one class but play a variety and can hence see what classes needs to be changed/balanced.
  13. ImaDomo
    • Donator

    ImaDomo Clad In Armour

    I play rotfl the most but I play other classes too lol. Like um..forgot who said it, when compared to other classes t3 repulse not as op as somebody said it too be.
  14. Scorpione

    Scorpione Well-Known Member

    Anything can be OP depending on what its compared to. Comparing TTD to repulse isn't the way to look at thing. Technically for example TTD is overly OP, compering it to a T3 like repulse ofcourse repulse will look like a joke. Same goes for faith and others. Traps are nice for waves and repulse can be super nice for bosses.
    Dlink proposal seems to make it more fair. However should also consider the aoe range be decreased by 1-4.
    Also saying you play a class or a class more than others doesn't mean anything at all. I've seen people with 50k+++ xp that only play MM and suck very bad at it. Not implying this to you, since I haven't seen you play that much myself :). But it doesn't make anyone's opinion more or less valuable. Some will always agree some will always disagree. Its all about prospective and the way people look at things.
  15. Arturia

    Arturia Well-Known Member

    Let's nerf a skill tree of a class that nobody plays! Let's also leave comparable T3's the same because they're not OP at all!

    Scorpions, that's how I'm interpreting what you say.

    Faith & TTD are the two skills most similar to Repulse and that is why bit is valid to make a comparison among them.
    They all stun, center on the marine, are T3, have huge AoE, and deal damage. Faith deals the largest burst and longest stun, TTD grants periodic stuns and damage, decent mobility, and strong durability, while repulse offers the largest move speed, a weak AoE, and a large stun that is short, with enemy debugging.

    They function the same with different changes. Its AoE is fine. Its damage is fine. Its armor debuff is fine.

    Repulse is the weakest in its T3 base group. You want to make it even weaker (making it even less viable).

    You seem to have forgotten that the survival rifle isn't a tank like the Demolitions and Firebat., both of which can sustain a much greater beating and afford to get close to use their huge AoE T3s, to stun, deal damage, and in demo's case, remain to dish out more. The survival rifle is fragile in comparison, and can't afford to get close to stun Targets, which is why his should have the largest AoE of the three. The mobility helps him get out fast, because unlike the other two, he has no way to stay in and survive, or get out quickly without it.
  16. Scorpione

    Scorpione Well-Known Member

    Nobody plays? I ran into it everyday. I play it myself outside of sec nm.
    Hows tdd comparable? It costs 25energy, gives 100% more armor, stuns every 3 seconds and increases damage dealt by 100% and attack speed by 25%. This isn't imbalanced, this is plain damn OP. Faith is also OP. The thing is that you are making it sound you have repulse or you have tdd/faith. You can have both in a game. Making it much much "OP". You probably do not notice such things due to only paying attention to the OP stuff. VRL is OP as a mother effer and I don't see anyone saying anything about it. OP and lack of balance is different. When I play srifle having to pick between saline and pshot is a pickle since i use neither. Just traps and repulse spam. Repulse has something going on for itself. -10 armor for stuff that survives the dmg and stun. Wooo me.

    Saline and Pshot are missing something. Once someone said that there shouldn't be a skill that is skipped unless its a matter of preference rather than 0 utility.

    Well actually, a srifle can tank. You has saline repulse but armor would be a must. You have a med you can achieve what a flamer would.
    Its just as viable as a deltamando tank. But probably the majority hasnt used either ever...
  17. Ramses II
    • Donator

    Ramses II Help, I can't change my title!

    I feel like I should write out a big kith-style response, but that seems like a lot of effort and I don't have that kind of time. Therefore I am first going to respond to two things that bothered me and then see where it goes from there.

    1. dlink: Yes. I did think pshot should have more damage. When it was on the dps side. Now it's on the support side. It doesn't need damage anymore because it's just a disable.

    2. Arturia: You can't just compare two specific talents from different classes. There are some classes, like the survival rifleman, both sides of the recon, and the deltacom, that really don't need their T3 because they have very powerful T1 and/or T2 talents. There are other classes, like the amm and the asstank, who just wouldn't work lategame without their T3 talents. Repulse is trash compared to Faith. Righteousness is, well, trash. As is sadist in NM games pre-TTD and level 2 of look just in general.

    I'm out of time to do more so I'm just gonna go ahead and say I don't think I was calling for a nerf to survrifle (scorp is, I'm not). Once survrifle has T2 he doesn't need to killsteal. Repulse sucks unless you're an idiot and get yourself into a terrible situation. NOTD is about specialization. A disable class should have their disables buffed and the extra damage removed. If people want to cheat and abuse game mechanics, fine. We can always be assholes back and make one-class limit on the number of players that can skill pshot, or something else dumb like that. Or, we could just not play with cheaters.
  18. brizingr5

    brizingr5 Member

    On the topic of p-shot: I almost never get it because it's a waste of energy. It deals like no damage, bosses are already getting tanked, so they don't need to reduced ms, and all my energy is already normally going into spamming traps, focus fire, and repulse... Maybe I'm playing rofl wrong, but that's my view of p-shot.

    If anything were to be done about repulse, I would say to replace it with more a support based skill. The whole reason for getting a srofl is for traps (hence it's called "traps rofl"). If you can't agree on repulse (which I personally think is a fun, pretty well balanced, good skill (compared to other classes, it's pretty awesome for a t3, but looking at the role rofl plays itself, it's not that op)), I would suggest replacing it with another trap based skill. Currently there are only 2 types of trap layers in the game; rofl's sonic traps and explo demo, who normally ends up being a tank instead. I wouldn't have anything against getting another unit with some nice traps to place in critical areas. Would also develop and explore another mechanic/feature of the game.
  19. ImaDomo
    • Donator

    ImaDomo Clad In Armour

    Repulse is a support skill in a way you can stun bosses, give time for med to heal tank or w.e Also slow mobs or what not it also gives you detection. Surv Rotfl fine the way it is..Srsly can we just drop this already. Scorpione I respect your opinion and say, but you too STUBBORN man...... Just like it go lol and play some Notd instead...
  20. brizingr5

    brizingr5 Member

    I always considered repulse more of a direct damage move... since everything around you seems to spontaneously die...

    In terms of stuns, you have 500 other moves to do that, that aren't t3. And this is a terrible stun at that.
    In terms of support, why should you have to get into tank range to support, especially when most tanks don't have abilities aggro themselves.

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