Kith's Rifleman Rework

Discussion in 'Class Discussion' started by Kith, Apr 25, 2012.

  1. Thermidor

    Thermidor Well-Known Member

    Agreeing with Zero as well. Weapons Proficiency isn't worth getting atm imo. Needs to be buffed someway to make it more attractive to use.
  2. Scorpione

    Scorpione Well-Known Member

    can just get 2500 rating and u have better weapon prof for all classes.
  3. Kith
    • Development Team
    • Designer

    Kith NOTD Staff: Anti-Fun Wizard Skeleton

    Well, that's enough for me.

    I hereby submit that Weapons Proficiency be increased to 20%/40% Reload Reduction.

    If people still dislike the skill and think it is not worth a talent point, I will re-examine the removal of the damage bonus and potentially re-instate it at a 2.5%/5% bonus. Alternately, we can input the Weapon Switch bonus, and have Mr. Rifleman switch weapons at light speed.
  4. Ramses II
    • Donator

    Ramses II Help, I can't change my title!

    The main issue is that it just isn't as attractive as adding crippling fire to your fired up focused fire. Maybe the 20/40 will fix that though.
  5. Zero

    Zero New Member

    To me, crippling is fine (may need some adjustments) in my opinion because it's meant to increase your survivability. Remember, crippling fire is meant for survival while fired up is meant for dps. And of course the Weapons Proficiency will fix it but not completely though. Weapons proficiency is not done, not yet. Weapons proficiency is missing one finishing touch to make it good, useful, and polished out for it to cover for "Combat Tree". Weapons proficiency will shine to it's greatest when that missing piece is discovered. :D
  6. Reaper

    Reaper Moderator/The Crimsonrine

    Weapons Proficiency reduces the energy cost or increases the duration of Fired Up or even when Fired Up is active and you reload the reload becomes that small bit faster (10%/20% or 5%/10%)
  7. Kith
    • Development Team
    • Designer

    Kith NOTD Staff: Anti-Fun Wizard Skeleton

    Weapons Prof removes the increased energy cost of Fire Up? There's an idea. Could help out with the Rifle's supposed energy issues.
  8. Ghost
    • Warden

    Ghost Warden

    I don't think you can compare the old and new Weapons Proficiency. Just because it was a Survival T2 doesn't mean it has to be as good on a Combat T2. Previously, noone bothered to go for both Grenades as well as Pshot anyway, preferring extra crit/speed.

    Its not about one skill being really good and another slightly worse needing to have both skills be really good. Combat Rifle DPS before the change was already more than adequate and the changes have increased it further.

    If it is felt that Weapons Proficiency Reload bonus isn't worth getting for some, then don't get it and get something else. Its your choice how to build. A lot of people using Barrett/HMG will get WP because missing a reload on NM with these is a big deal, and generally your DPS goes up even with manuals as they are influenced by WP as well - not just auto.

    Like I was saying though, the new focus fire may be a bit too good. I'd rather its energy cost did not go up but its values are decreased slightly (total 9% speed at level3). This makes WP more attractive and FP more readily usable.

    Since people love their higher DPS, this probably won't find a lot of support, so I'd be OKish with WP lvl2 reducing FP cost by 1.
  9. Reaper

    Reaper Moderator/The Crimsonrine

    Like Mr-T says...

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  10. Zero

    Zero New Member

    Sorry Ghost, but I'm a type of person that a talent that stands in a tree not worth getting than it's means we have a problem. I hate talents that stay there and people skip it for something else. All talents have potential. Plus WP is good mostly at where its stand in combat because if you look at WP and compare what effects can bring in combat than survival. You'll see a lot. WP is mostly meant for dps in my opinion since it's supports light, medium, heavy weapons by improving reaction and faster use in combat. WP was good in survival but wasn't put with a efficient position when it's could show results in combat tree. Including it can heavily help you dish out as much firepower as possible (with heavy weapons and etc.). About the manual reload Reaper, we must use everything we have to our own advantage. WP and manuel reload is perfect for deal heavy weapons.

    EDIT: I think I went off-topic with what you are talking about now. >.>
  11. Ghost
    • Warden

    Ghost Warden

    So in summary you actually agree with what I said?
  12. Zero

    Zero New Member

    Ghost, I agree with your information that you are implying for with WP. But that reduction on the WP reload bonus was way too much including the loss for the damage bonus. I would agree to anything now with what going to be put on WP unless it will unbalance "Combat" or makes it's value to no use.
  13. Scorpione

    Scorpione Well-Known Member

    There are a bunch of talents that are hardly used. There are some tree's never used. Some are gonna prefer other talents more than others. There are ways to make use of all talents. saying something is "useless" because its not imba is silly concept. However just a reload bonus 20/40% is fine tbh. Because even the best fail reloads. So I doubt most are any better. Reloading faster = shooting faster when mag go 0. So it is powerful even tho most don't think of it in that way
  14. Thermidor

    Thermidor Well-Known Member

    I would say that 20/40% reduced reload speed makes the skill a bit more appealing now personally, although I wouldn't oppose further suggestions of buffs to the skill (unless the suggestion makes the skill OP).
  15. Kith
    • Development Team
    • Designer

    Kith NOTD Staff: Anti-Fun Wizard Skeleton

    Eh. Doesn't need a boost beyond the reload speed.

    As for the discussion, all skills should be viable. It is not fair nor reasonable to make a skill that is intended to be skipped.
  16. Ghost
    • Warden

    Ghost Warden

    Personally I'd not skip any of the Combat rifle's talents post rework. All of them are better than getting Saline anyway IMO or the Survival FF version.
    I think what some players are feeding back is that they'd not take WP right away but after getting Bloodlust probably, which is absolutely fine.

    Me, I get WP after grenades before maxing FF. Comes down to player choice and T2 doesn't mean everyone wants it always right away. Sometimes tactics and weapon choice may make you want to choose to max a T1 first. So if I am using pistol all game, I'd skip WP, but if I use HMG, I'd want it ASAP.
  17. Ramses II
    • Donator

    Ramses II Help, I can't change my title!

    Most of the riflemen I've seen have skipped WP entirely in favor of getting crippling fire. This is because a T3 crofl usually has a cg with the massive splash necessary to make crippling fire extremely powerful. He will also already be spamming focused fire, so it isn't like it's making him use any more energy.

    I would actually be in favor of further slightly increasing the energy cost of fire up and bloodlust and then turning weapons proficiency into combat proficiency with the 15/30% reload decrease and a decreased energy cost to fire up and bloodlust.
  18. Kith
    • Development Team
    • Designer

    Kith NOTD Staff: Anti-Fun Wizard Skeleton

    Hey guys there's a poll. Pick one.

    I prefer the latter because less spam and because it gives Weapon Proficiency that old boost of DPS back in a different form. But, hey, I'll leave it up to you guys.
  19. DryEagle

    DryEagle New Member

    Any reason why focus fire isn't a toggle? Make it cost 1.6 energy per second while it's active (shooting or not) would be the same as paying 8 energy every 5 seconds, but save a bunch of annoying clicking... add a 5 energy activation cost (like how cloak costs more at the start) to stop people flicking it on and off all the time per shot...
    Or just make it possible to rightclick it to make it autocast, so it casts it whenever you start shooting (like zealot charge for example).

    Yes you could say it removes some skill cap, but you still have to manage the same energy cost, and it just makes it nicer to play with.
    Intentionally making skills awkward and annoying to use doesn't really equate to a high skill high reward kind of thing, it's just sadistic to the player.

    Compare to how the assault's steroid is 5s cooldown, 7s duration... now there it at least takes skill to get the most out of your energy, instead of here where it's a case of 'hold F'.
  20. Arturia

    Arturia Well-Known Member

    A lot of things are tedious.

    It just forces the player to actively participate for a boost.

    This came up before (I probably complained about this on the old forum). It got shot down because it does remove some of the skill cap. For the very same reason, Suppressive Fire never had its cooldown increased to match the duration.

    If its made into a toggle, it leads to more passive play. Sure, toggling it on / off would require skill, but the same could be argued for hitting it when you need it.

    Passive's really aren't that fun for people, so Kithrixx tries to avoid making things into passives or toggles.

    C-rolf is all about actively hitting your keys. If you set Blood Frenzy and Focus Fire to toggles, you have very little to do as a C-Rolf.

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