Killing Friendly Units - Penalty Discussion

Discussion in 'Archive' started by Ability, May 31, 2013.

  1. Ability
    • Development Team
    • NOTD Creator

    Ability NOTD Creator

    There's currently no penalty for killing friendly units (player minis, NPCs, civilians). We will implement a penalty on-going, but will need to have a discussion on this. This thread will move to NOTD Discussion on Sunday (2 Jun) and we'll make a final call next weekend.

    As a start, I propose that each friendly unit kill will have a 5 XP and 1 Karma penalty and reduce the Marine's attributes (HP/damage) by 10% for that game. Killing civilians will not have an attribute penalty.

    Example:
    3 friendly kills = 15 XP and 3 Karma lost. Marine HP/damage reduced by 30%
    10 friendly kills = 50 XP and 10 Karma lost. Marine HP/damage reduced by 99% (basically the Marine won't contribute)

    Any inputs? E.g. is it too harsh on accidents, is it too lenient for 'trolls'.
  2. Kith
    • Development Team
    • Designer

    Kith NOTD Staff: Anti-Fun Wizard Skeleton

    Hahahahaha. That's awesome.

    However, a problem crops up with the Explo Demo. I would limit this to combat units only, and give Civilians a separate penalty of XP and Rating with no HP/Damage reduction.
  3. Ability
    • Development Team
    • NOTD Creator

    Ability NOTD Creator

    Sounds good. Updated 1st post.
  4. Ramses II
    • Donator

    Ramses II Help, I can't change my title!

    The issue with this is that the AI isn't smart enough to stay out of the way of mines/satchels/plasma discharges/monos/nukes/etc. The main reason you hardly see any opsmandos in pubs is that the risk of a stupid newbie that you tell half a dozen times to stay away from the nukes still decides to sprint into one towards the end of the game. With civilians/npcs/minis you don't even have the ability to tell them to stay out of the nukes/whatever. I'm sure there will be plenty of situations where, for example, a field engineer is trying to do his job and help to thin the mobs that are doing their best to overwhelm the team at Epsilon, and the minis continually run into them to suicide. 95% of npc kills are entirely the fault of the npc and in no way on purpose. You're forcing people to choose between giving themselves the best chances of winning and being careful not to use any FF spells until all the minis die. I for one would probably start getting people to block out the minis in EC during the Epsilon wave so that they die to the mobs as fast as possible.
  5. Kith
    • Development Team
    • Designer

    Kith NOTD Staff: Anti-Fun Wizard Skeleton

    Put NPCs (minis and such) in the same boat as civilians, then. Problem solved.
  6. ArcanePariah
    • Development Team
    • Map Developer

    ArcanePariah Miracle Worker

    Minis and Civilians AI will be rectified and they WILL dodge such weapons in the future (and yes, ironically it will make them more conscious of such things then newbies but I digress). I intened to spend today working on bug fixes and code tweaking, but the weekend will be spent on AI (both enemy and allied).
  7. MissHumpz
    • Event Coordinator
    • Community Leader

    MissHumpz NOTD Staff: Event Coordinator & Amazing Amazer

    So question, if this penalty won't be applied to NPC, what exactly is this going to be limited to then?

    FO minis? Predators? Engi's probes and/or guardian?

    I'm a little worried that some people will take advantage and abuse such a penalty. I've witnessed the situation where an Engi used his probes to constantly harassed another player (because that player took a hp that the Engi wanted for himself) so that player had to resort to killing the probes in order to protect himself and prevent himself from getting team killed. As you can guess, if this penalty would have been implemented at the time, the player being harassed would lose rating, karma, damage and health all in the name of self defense. The Engi can spawn as many probes as he likes over the game at little expense. It would be incredibly easy for an Engi to troll someone they dislike in a game if this idea was to be implemented. The Engi or even FO simply move their probes or minis into (as Ramses stated), mines/satchels/plasma discharges/monos/nukes/etc. to penalise other players in the game.
    They don't even have to dislike the person in order to do it. With the damage nerf penalty, players can lower a dps class in a game to benefit themselves, most likely to get kills thus more xp.
  8. Ryan III

    Ryan III Well-Known Member

    I actually think that Karmabite should be made more threatening and be fixed to trigger on any kill before this but I'm all for this idea.
  9. Ability
    • Development Team
    • NOTD Creator

    Ability NOTD Creator

    In latest patch, Karmabite XP penalty has been increased from 50 to 100.
  10. HDD
    • Donator

    HDD Well-Known Member

    That won't do nothing for trolls,All they can do is simply reload their bank and problem solved. (Half-Solved, still they gain nothing but satisfaction of wasting other people times) But then again this is very base on these so called "situation". For a regular player, They will have to be a little more careful (or probably changed nothing in their playstyle) for such things.
  11. Kith
    • Development Team
    • Designer

    Kith NOTD Staff: Anti-Fun Wizard Skeleton

    Sure it'll do things for trolls. It obliterates practically any hope of progress for them for that game, which discourages such actions.
  12. Arturia

    Arturia Well-Known Member

    If you have a Field Engineer, Forward Observer or Technician intent on fucking over your team, then kill the little shit and never play with him again.

    At the same time, turn -karmabite into a group vote, with a majority having to occur in order for it to penalize a player. The votes of players with over 1950 karma counts as two votes instead of one.

    If he fucked over your team's DPS by sacrificing his units, then remake and get someone who actually intends to contribute to the team instead of a preschooler.



    I'd rather something along the lines of a special group of variables being added that counts all of the allied unit kills, and once it reaches a certain number, it restricts the player to the 3 beginner classes. At the same time, the player receives a 10% increased damage taken debuff, 50% reduced health regeneration, 50% reduces shield regeneration, -1 detection range, 10% reduced energy regeneration, doubled CP decay, 10% increased reload duration, 10% reduced splash radius for weapons and 15% increased weapon switch time duration.

    Generally speaking, make it a debuff that isn't clearly noticeable or obvious. Have it be a hidden debuff as well.

    Every game will add 1 to a certain variable A. Once variable A reaches 2, it goes to 0, and reduces variable B by 1, and variable C by 1.

    variable B will increase by 1 per allied unit kill, by 1 per mini-marine kill and by 7 per Hero Kill, with these stacking. So if you team-kill a marine, it adds 1 for an allied unit kill, and 7 for killing a Marine Hero unit for a total of 8. Killing a mini-marine would add 2 points. variable B accounts for how often or how much the player Team-kills.

    Upon variable B reaching 110 (the equivalent of killing off two entire teams), the game will add 50 to variable C, and reduce variable B to 0.

    variable C will dictate how long the player is penalized. variable C will only go down to 0 and no further. So long as variable C is a number above 0, the player receives the penalties.

    Such as system would also be problematic for trolls and whatnot; reverting to their previous bank won't do much for them. They probably won't even notice the debuffs either, as they aren't blatantly obvious. By the time they notice, it'll most likely be too late.
  13. Ability
    • Development Team
    • NOTD Creator

    Ability NOTD Creator

    Moving to NOTD Discussion
  14. Nymous

    Nymous Member

    I think they might notice the restricted to the 3 base classes part rather quickly. You have the right idea, unnoticeable, but like HDD said, they can still reload their bank file. They only have to keep an eye on their stats to know when they hit your limit, or just reload after every tk game.

    If they were going to do something heavier then karmabite that lasts beyond a single game (which I am thinking they will not) it would have to be a delayed activation sort of thing so unless someone saved every bank file they would be forced to deal with it. Some randomized counter that went down each game after C reached 50 till it activated. Then they could never gain any more exp (since reloading would set the counter back to 1) without accepting the punishment.

    That, in turn, would just lead people to modifying the bank file to get out of it, which is hacking but unnoticeable unless there was some community effort to track those being punished (which would fail) so it would be done anyway. Especially if it was a high exp player who is now stuck for 100 games with the 3 base classes. And again, this would only work once cus in the future the guy would simply reload the bank after every tk game.

    Too bad there's no server side storage of bank files, that's a bit of a catch all end all solution to most ways of punishing jerks isn't it? Yes, it keeps them from earning anything in a game, but at the point where you're tking I doubt they expect to get anything out of it anyway.

    As for the main topic of this thread: if, like arcane said, the minis get smart enough to avoid aoe stuff then I think the penalty is fine although it does raise the question what if a FO intentionally runs his minis to get killed to troll someone? Would an ability that autoteleports player controlled minis to the main unit if they are within the radius of a friendly AOE attack be too OP/hard to implement?
  15. YetiSwarm
    • Donator

    YetiSwarm Member

    I've never seen anyone kill another person's probes, fo minis, or whatever intentionally. Sure it probably happens once a month somewhere, but I think this is like putting a tourniquet on sunburn, no make that putting a tourniquet on a dark tan. Just don't play with the troll again and the problem is solved.

    With this system, a single accidental attack-move on the wrong unit and you start losing xp? Really? Oh damn, we still have enough civs left for lom, but now I'm down 5 xp. Thanks for that. If you insist on putting in such an unnecessary system please put some wiggle room in - no xp loss for first 2 units killed. Ideally people won't screw up, but shit happens. That and I'll believe the ai will be so significantly improved not to die to any friendly fire when I see both it and pigs flying. Unless the AI are going to be better than most players, they'll still get killed and troll your xp. I thought this was an anti-troll measure, not a new way for the game to troll players.

    2 thumbs way way down.
  16. Kith
    • Development Team
    • Designer

    Kith NOTD Staff: Anti-Fun Wizard Skeleton

    It's really hard to "not play with the troll" when they are avid members of the community that play often. Just because you don't see it doesn't mean that it doesn't happen.

    You complain that you're being penalized, but surprise surprise, it's because you did something wrong. Regardless of if it's an accident or not, you still did it. It's not a game-ending or gain-breaking thing. It's only a small penalty that ramps up the more you do it.

    NOTD:AM was much, much harsher about its penalizing of killing friendly units - Article 15 meant that no medals could be gained that game, by anyone, and everyone suffered reduced EXP gain (with a much larger penalty being inflicted on the violator). This is a slap on the wrist by comparison.
  17. ArcanePariah
    • Development Team
    • Map Developer

    ArcanePariah Miracle Worker

    We can adjust the penalty but... the same punishment or worse is inflicted on those for similar accidents with players. Although it is accidental, how many times have players accidently a-clicked and crit with a m45 or fully revved adren/surge opcomm and wasted someone before they could react.

    As for the trolls, it wasn't trolling (ie for the heck of it), people were deliberately killing FO minis or FO players who went minis because the sentiment was the FO Mini tree is an active detriment to the team. It is one thing to have an occasional player kill a MI FO mini, it is another when taking the MI FO tree will get you killed by almost anyone.
  18. YetiSwarm
    • Donator

    YetiSwarm Member

    Not hard in the slightest. I've kept a personal shitlist of trolls, teamkillers, and bad players for 2 years now and continue to avoid playing with anyone on that list. I even quit pub games that contain people on that list. If they're in games you join, then make your own games and don't invite them then.

    AI are not even close to perfect now and will never be perfect and you have no control over them --> it will not always be you doing something wrong. In fact, I would say more often than not, it is not going to be "because you did something wrong."

    If this was an accident and the other player knows it, there's no karmabite, and no xp/karma penalty. That is the entire point of karmabite being optional. Maybe the real solution is just to make mini-killing karmabitable. Accidents happen and the fo won't karmabite unless he's the one being a troll. If it is objectionable team killing then the remedy is there and they can karmabite.
  19. ArcanePariah
    • Development Team
    • Map Developer

    ArcanePariah Miracle Worker

    This sounds reasonable, however the game does impose an immediate penalty on players who TK, it is currently -5 rating and karma.
  20. Dylan

    Dylan New Member

    Well the game where the troll practically took control of a leaver, was the only individual who died earlier in the game so his progress was screwed so he figured he could mess around and screw other players progress as well too! Tried the VK option when I first saw it happening but didn't get the other votes quick enough.

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