Discussion in 'NOTD Discussion' started by Ghost, Apr 1, 2012.

  1. Ghost
    • Warden

    Ghost Warden

    Karma has over time lost a lot of its meaning and these days really just affects the following (assuming you don't drop below 1500):

    Leaver main character control (1525, unless player 1 which has no req)
    +1 XP when you have 1900+ Karma in Chapter 2

    So really the question is, why do we even have it? It seems to do just about nothing currently ever since Mossy complained about Karma requirements.

    IMO I feel that certain classes with a number of FFable skills should have a karma requirement to select.

    For instance Commando.
    Subtletly used to be quite harmless but with the gravity grenade and tripwire and horror being implemented, both trees have considerable TK ability.

    Chem Experts is another where you can mass venom teammates or kill them outright if you are not careful or just being a troll.

    Tech's MotM/Black Dog is another example, as is PsiOps force push and storm.

    Maybe it is time that such classes come with a karma requirement so that only those who "can be trusted" or "are sufficiently careful" can also use them.

    On a sidenote, I really feel that some code needs to be added to the Chem Expert's venom that characters dying as a result of Talent inflicted venom should allow Karmabite.

    It is incredibly annoying to have someone random CE in a pub and then spam desolate/contaminate with impunity which does not kill teammates outright but leaves everyone with mass venom stack and dying to "serious injuries" only.

    Commando: 10k XP 1700 rating 1800 karma / 80k XP 1850 karma
    Psi Ops: 10k XP 1700 rating 1700 karma / 80k XP 1750 karma
    Chem Expert: 3.5k XP 1750 karma
    Technician: 3.5k XP 1650 karma
    Demolitions: 2k XP 1600 karma
  2. Blaqk
    • Development Team
    • Webmaster/Ops

    Blaqk NOTD Staff: Operations and Web

    Hold the phone, tiger. I only have 1650 karma. Are you going to deprive me of use of my Commando/Psi Ops CP just because I didn't farm something that does nothing?
  3. Ghost
    • Warden

    Ghost Warden

    From personal and EU perspective, none of us farmed karma, yet even with many remakes all of our 40k+ guys are over 1900 and even those in the 20ks are in the high 1700s and mid 1800s.

    Outside of game quitting and TK/karmabite I wouldn't be aware how people would have a low karma post the 20k mark especially.

    I do appreciate that the karma count on NA/SEA may differ and the figures provided are preliminary.

    I should note that some semi-prolific Nuke TKers and Chems on EU still retain over 1650 karma at present and rating is a poor marker of gamesmanship, as these TKers easily remain in the 1800+ rating category.

    With any karma implementation someone is going to lose out however and I think that while this would be regrettable, it is also necessary in order to move forward. A month on, hardly anyone will still complain IMHO and live with it, as with many other changes to NOTD that were initially unpopular.

    Restricting the class by karma would not mean you lose your CP (other than by winning with another class alive 25% chance), just that the requirement to select the class is higher.
  4. Blaqk
    • Development Team
    • Webmaster/Ops

    Blaqk NOTD Staff: Operations and Web

    Karma, too, is a poor indicator of gamesmanship. I had a suggested system on the old forum for replacing it altogether. Hopefully it can be salvaged once the archive is in place.
  5. Ghost
    • Warden

    Ghost Warden

    Happy for any input you can provide - as long as we can get something implemented to restrict certain classes/talents to players who won't abuse them.
  6. Blaqk
    • Development Team
    • Webmaster/Ops

    Blaqk NOTD Staff: Operations and Web

    Using your own logic against you, if someone wants a class bad enough they're going to get it, regardless of what restrictions we put in place. I'm against adding more restrictions. All you accomplish is alienating your players.
  7. Ghost
    • Warden

    Ghost Warden

    Outside of hacking and constant bank reloading I don't think that is possible in the long run anyway.
    If they want it badly enough to get access to it legitly and then abuse it, they will lose ability to pick that class for some time due to karmabite and the like.
  8. Blaqk
    • Development Team
    • Webmaster/Ops

    Blaqk NOTD Staff: Operations and Web

    You don't need to place futile and petty restrictions to weed out bad apples. Just don't play with them. To advocate tighter restrictions is to advocate a punishment for everyone just because a handful of players are "abusive".
  9. Ghost
    • Warden

    Ghost Warden

    The impact should be minimal on willing-to-learn and good players ideally, and I agree that we should look at something that doesn't penalize too many people.

    However by the same token, consider that we have a ratings requirement for the Commando and Engineer and their alternates.

    It could very much be considered punishing to the general populace as well to have that.
    Personally I did find the rating requirements to be bad primarily because I didn't want to have 1700+ rating (just like you can argue that you don't farm karma or mossy likes 1337 karma), so really have either no restrictions or restrictions which make sense I would suggest.

    Similarly, half the time I still cannot vk people because of my rating - yet most random channel people can because of 1600 rating.
    And when you vk people, they lose 5 karma, so shouldn't karma be a better indicator for VK?

    For the class selection at least, having 80k+ xp has rid me of that rating requirement, for the VK sadly not.

    As karmabite only reduces XP and Karma, karma seems like a better indicator for FFable classes than rating in the current system, would you not agree?
  10. Blaqk
    • Development Team
    • Webmaster/Ops

    Blaqk NOTD Staff: Operations and Web

    Rating can be gained in chunks as large as 20. Most karma gain I've seen has been 3. Average Karma gain is probably 1.

    There's your difference. It's one thing to require 1700 rating which can be gained long before you reach 10k xp. At an average of 1 karma per game, it would take 350 games to reach 1850 Karma. A typical player will unlock Commando after 200-250 games. See a problem now?
  11. Kith
    • Development Team
    • Designer

    Kith NOTD Staff: Anti-Fun Wizard Skeleton

    No. I wouldn't. There's already an XP and rating requirement. Blaqk is correct, we do not need to place even more restrictions on the players. It is not immediately evident what Karma does or how you gain it, it doesn't need to be a system of restriction.

    I understand your reasoning well enough, but the concept is not strong enough for implementation. There simply isn't enough of a reason.
  12. Lyanden

    Lyanden Well-Known Member

    In relation to Karma (since that is the topic itself)

    I would like opinions on what to do with long time players who in their early days went down the path of massive TKs (whether they be accidental, justice dealing or hacker hunting, or trolling) and now are stuck with overwhelmingly low karma.

    Are they now irredeemable?

    SOB STORY TIME (kinda)

    Asking because I know of a player who (while not as famous/infamous as our dear Mossy) is stuck with low karma due to his/her wild youth but had converted and played 3-4 months of good,

    sometimes even exemplary behavior, guiding newbies with accurate information (admitting to not knowing something if he/she didn't and confirmed in game via aid of the wiki), always choosing key classes when no one would and being over all a nice fellow to have in non-serious games.

    Personally amused that the person says "if you need help, I'm the one with the red square around" to newbies

    Said person's reformation was not spontaneous and was after a stern talking to by yours truly and some cohorts of course (and a few TKs here and there). The person however, while not quite 'vet' material yet, DID change and I think deserved at that point to at least be called a member of the community.

    Unfortunately the person has decided to no longer play NOTD because while his/her exp has actually gotten to 5 digits, it will take him the same amount of games to get to playable karma.

    Said person still plays SC2. Just not NOTD.

    When asked why the change just said "I'm tired of being hated".
  13. ArcanePariah
    • Development Team
    • Map Developer

    ArcanePariah Miracle Worker

    On one hand, I agree with Blaqk/Kith, there is already plenty of restrictions in place, most likely unnecessary to add more. On the other, I agree that with Ghost that we need SOME punishment for TKing. At the moment, the average player can easily maintain high XP/Karma, and the usual TK has 0 effect on them. For even higher end players like myself, TK amounts to "I care... why?", the logic being that ANY TK + Karmabite I can undo with a single game (Any NM game will undo all the punishments inflicted).

    One off the cuff idea is that if you TK with a given class and your karmabitten, you are barred from using that class for X games (probably 1). If you TK with a class and someone karmabites you, you've proven unable to responsibly use that class to the satisfaction of your teammates.
  14. Ghost
    • Warden

    Ghost Warden

    I actually like that idea AP, and I imagine the bank file has sufficent free variables to make use of it.

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