It's poll time: The FO's Left Tree

Discussion in 'Class Discussion' started by Kith, Oct 21, 2012.

  1. Ümlaut

    Ümlaut New Member

    Going to be killed for that, but... why not removing napalm instead of shockwave?

    Unless i'm wrong with the design, Arty's skills are mostly about timing the drops so they hit right when hordes go in the circles. Fire mission, shockwave, air strike all need a good timing (especially air strike, with the cooldown, cost, and spike effect) and careful placement to be effective and efficient.
    Napalm on the other hand is just a wall you place in the smaller chokepoint and nothing can go through. Doesn't cost many shells if you wait a bit between drops and flare a bit ahead, save shells compared with the other skills, completly sustainable with a supply station or a nice medic, and easier to use than fire mission / air strike.

    From what i see in games (EU server), people tends to completly give up fire mission once they got the napalm. Mostly the same about air strike, in spite of the awesomeness. Some big guns of the server advice to barely use fire mission to newcomers so they can spam the napalm. Unless it is intended...

    I still find the first holds before / after demeter to be the funniest part in a arty's life. You go completly crazy on bombing, and you can still do it without wasting shells. Once you got napalm, life gets boring, zombies and their half-rotten brains just walk in the fire, you can even look at your character to check if he's not hit by a ninja zombie.

    So... power-up the Asgard so it can compete with napalm and arty's post-T3 job stays storming stuff, instead of walling the team behind napalm like an explodemo does with armagedon?

    Or give shockwave barrage to the delta mando? I love playing both classes, but i feel shock shells are much more usefull than both grav and horror grenades, as they can perma-stun big targets.
  2. Pyromaniac

    Pyromaniac Well-Known Member

    half of the power of grav nade is that it makes the zombies ball up, allowing for weapons with ANY splash to hit all of them simultaneously
  3. JAW

    JAW Well-Known Member

    Then it has to be buffed beyond belief to warrant the loss of control. I only use it when I want to have fun. When I want to not waste talent points, I just get fire mission, or fully upgrade all of my minis, then get fire mission. It is not a good ability as it stands, it just isn't. No one thinks it isn't fun, but the only thing it can do better than anything else is provide free automatic lvl3 LD on every devo, agron, wraith, strangler, and hugger in its sight. It's a T3 skill that is outmatched by most T1's, and it makes it so you can't use any of your own skills that also outmatch it. Upping the attack speed is a no-go, because a lot of the people (myself included) lagged when spam clicking was feasible. Upping the damage just makes it a harder to use, laggier version of fire mission. Maybe there's some magical way to save the Speshul Sputtering Ship, but the best I can come up with is to make it a support-orientated command platform. Make it so you can deploy a fixed number of airstrikes, timed shield drones, and/or timed auto turrets or something in addition to what you currently have and maybe, just MAYBE, you'll be cooking with fire.
  4. MSluiter

    MSluiter Member

    Cut gunship. It's pretty common to skip it completely, and when you're skipping your T3 you know there's a problem.
  5. Arturia

    Arturia Well-Known Member

    Of all of the classes, the only T3 that ever gets skipped, is Gunship.

    While I myself have never used shockwave, every single experience I have had with gunship was very negative and lag ridden because of the camera.

    It was better when all it did was zoom out a bit on your character and let you fire at stuff. If anything, it was nerfed (because during the up damage, lower attack speed, the DPS dropped).

    While it was a fun skill, it wasn't practical for any purpose at all, after the camera moving got implemented.
  6. Blaze

    Blaze New Member

    this is why i ask why cant it be ai controlled? and have a dead zone around the team it cant fire orrrr have it be a sorta vtol thing and have it hover over the team and fire
  7. Arturia

    Arturia Well-Known Member

    Because the game emphasizes on player skill more than let a computer lolrape everything for you.
  8. Pyromaniac

    Pyromaniac Well-Known Member

    What if.................................
    The gunship was a unit you could control, that was not visible (you could hotkey it or use the gunship button to select it) and you could use the abilities of the gunship without sacrificing usability/energy of the mando. This would allow the gunship to be used more freely, therefore increasing it's utitlity. And maybe edit the ship some where the FO could stun enemies reliably (maybe not as reliably as shockwave though).

    Need limitations to gunship with this idea? make the attacks/abilities cost energy on the ship (the ship's own energy)

    It would not be able to be seen, but it would be located roughly where the fo is, and the effective radius could be the same
  9. vexxenon

    vexxenon Well-Known Member

    Futuristic gunship with similar animation of orbital laser, maybe with zooming effect like "" however speed up. Maybe with 2 modes? AOE mode does aoe dmg that's spread out and a precision mode for boss targeting? add few effects like slow/stun/blind blab blab subjected to balancing?

    However, this makes the T3 right tree a lot more like left tree, a fire and forget weapon...

    If focusing only on minis, maybe T3 can drop tank/goliath that allows you to control... perhaps limit the drop pool similar to infantry pool so it can't be spammed, you can even further nerf it to 1 tank/goliath at a time subjected to balancing of course..

    We can even have T3 that spawns a Walker, similar to Starwars... that allows u to load up to x# players that each control cannons that can blow things up... make it so it can walk over smaller units, and it's mobile... hhahahahha. Oh of course only eng can repair it, and if the walker gets destroyed with player still inside, they die.

    Oh damn... we're talking about FO left tree.... well I got nothing..
  10. Blaze

    Blaze New Member

    or a gunship that you can see flying like a regualar battle cruiser and you can control where it goes but its attacks are abilities like they are now but you have to use hotkets to fire them and maybe add a weak weapon to it so it does some nonability damage
  11. Yuey
    • Warden

    Yuey Warden

    Just my opinions on some of the options here.

    Making gunship useful.

    I like gunship, the concept is original for an NOTD skill, its great fun to use and it felt great to lay waste to an area around your team. The biggest drawback of the skill is the lost of control when in use and the low damage on everything. The lag and all just feels like a problem on the user's end and not the skill itself, I've never had any lag issues when using gunship even with my old shitty net.

    The two ways to make it viable would be to either make it worth the loss of control (ie, up the rate of fire considerably) or not make it lose control at all. My idea here would be similar to how the Spectre gunship ability worked in CnC Generals, target a small area and the gunship just pounds the targetted area with all its weapons and you can switch the target area within a fairly decent sized circle to adjust aim. See youtube vid.


    I would heavily prefer the first option, to increase the rate of fire to a decent rate so that it actually compares as a T3. Tooling gunship to a version that doesn't make you lose control seem to be going against the original idea of the skill.

    Switching gunship over to Artilery tree.

    Ok, I know I voted to replace Shockwave with Gunship, I think the better idea would be the original proposal in the FO remake, Kith. Gunship being the new T3 while Shockwave and Napalm is combined into a T2 skill, Level 1 unlocking shockwave and level 2 unlocking napalm, both nerfed slightly to compensate for napalm being available so early. This would go with the above proposal of making Gunship actually useful as a T3, with or without the loss of control.

    If we're going with the replace shockwave idea, then the current gunship is going to be in a really shitty position, it can't be powerful enough to usurp the usefulness of the T3 Napalm, which means that the loss of control is never really justifiable, who wants a T2 that doesn't allow you to use your T3 at all during its duration? This is where the spectre gunship idea comes in with some nerfs to the damage so that it actually fits as a T2. Maybe add in a shot every 2 seconds or so that mini-stuns.

    Removing gunship completely.

    No, fuck you, don't do this, you're stupid/retarded/etc.

    Ok, being serious here, there's some argument of "if it works now, don't change it" and frankly speaking, Arty FO works pretty well in Alpha right now, so why change the formula? Something is bound to be skipped anyway, whether it would be shockwave, the gunship if it gets ported over, Airstrike or the T1 passive (I keep forgetting the name). So, I guess there is some merit to say "just give Infantry Tree the T3 it deserves and just get rid of gunship". Its sad, its unfortunate and I dislike this option the most. But, Gunship feels a little out of place on Infantry Tree and wouldn't be missed much. Frankly, I only get gunship when I want to troll low level pubs. So yeah, I'd be pissed if its removed and I'd probably rage a little at the people that support it but its understandable, I guess.
  12. frozensolid

    frozensolid Well-Known Member

    i like the spectre gunship idea
  13. spartanhija

    spartanhija Member

    I also like the spectre.
  14. Blaze

    Blaze New Member

    the specter would make the fo's life alot easier and people cant be complete trolls to the fo while he is using them thru gbuddy idk how many times i was in gunship and i got ate by something cuz the guy thought it was funny to dash thru zombies
  15. ArcanePariah
    • Development Team
    • Map Developer

    ArcanePariah Miracle Worker

    The spectre gunship idea sounds good, have one hotkey to activate gunship, and another to actually target the area you want bombed. One possible variation is to have gunship have no cooldown or upfront energy cost, but have it drain energy while active, giving it more flexibility in its use.
  16. JAW

    JAW Well-Known Member

    If you simply buff dps, or remove the loss of control, Gunship still has no use because it fits the same type of usage as several other abilities ON THE SAME TREE. After reading some of theses posts, I think Yuey had a point with saying the tree should be organized like it was in the rework.

    T1 Artillery / lunar boosters+accuracy
    T2 Shell types + replenishment / rockets+bombs
    T3 Gunship
    BUT, gunship should be tweaked one of two ways.

    First way, gunship sight radius and elevation should be increased, artillery and/or airstrikes should be usable from gunship, and gain some sort of support drop you can place. Instead of constant clicking to fire, you would simply designate areas to be bombarded, and it would continue to blast those areas until you switched places. An energy bar would also pop up to allow you to manage your energy. (the abilities used would not be free)

    Second option, upgrade damage and noise of gauss cannons, make it fire a burst of 3 rounds in a small triangle formation (either same time or sequential), and make the dumb-fired missiles fire five rockets over 1-3 seconds at their target area. This would greatly increase the dps, but would hopefully not lag half of its users as badly as reverting to the old spam click.

    I am more in favor of option 1, but if we end up just buffing the dps, I hope we consider ways to reduce the lag, as I tried to do in option 2.
  17. Thermidor

    Thermidor Well-Known Member

    In my opinion, if gunship should replace shockwave barrage, it needs to be buffed in some way and/or remove the loss of control thing. Currently, it is a really fun skill to use, which is why I am reluctant to skip it in-game. However, I just don't find it that effective to use to be honest because it is often quite laggy and just doesn't seem to get enough kills or cut the hordes well enough to be worth anything higher than a tier 1 skill.

    Also, I do like the idea of the spectre gunship (ENEMY AC-130 ABOVE! :D). Maybe the concept of that can be put to use.
  18. Jercy

    Jercy Well-Known Member

    I think that in order to have this dicussion in a constructive way is to first and foremost fix gunship. Currently gunship sucks, so much so that almost no one gets it at all because it was nerfed so hard. If gunship didn't suck and was working as it should be then people may be more inclinded to dicuss what it should replace or if it should stay.

    I think that gunship should be fixed and stay where it is.
  19. Kith
    • Development Team
    • Designer

    Kith NOTD Staff: Anti-Fun Wizard Skeleton

  20. Lyanden

    Lyanden Well-Known Member

    Considering that the Gunship was nerfed (to the current level of 'useless') when several players started complaining that it lagged the game too much (not I, I've always been used to lag)

    and that the current changes included code optimization that has improved game lag for players (with my comp specs at least)

    Intel Pentium DCPU 2.80 GHz, 2.79 Ghz
    2.00 GB Ram
    32 bit Op system

    + Nvidia GeForce 9500 GT

    (yes, it's a cardboard box computer, I've been playing for 3 years coping with consistent/perma frame lag since forever, but the frame lag has lessened during holdout waves where I used to be unable to move at all)

    Then I think Darcy's suggestion is worth a shot.

    Return Gunship to its old glory days of wreaking havoc and destruction with both the homing missile and 2 types of cannons with different but still fast attack rates and then decide if it is not worthy of T3 status for that tree.

    Also, if you are getting negative feedback, then it might be because

    Show Spoiler
    as the situation stands,
    it is as if people who approved and implemented the change to the talent are now asking to remove/replace the talent altogether after they themselves broke it. It does not paint a nice image. :/

    [align=center]Break talent to make it basically 'deleted' already


    wait a few months for people to see, experience and get used to the idea that the talent is useless (especially the new players who never experienced the old gunship)


    "formalize deletion", this time with seeking public approval under the reason 'broken talent is broken, must replace'

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