Hits Calculation and Shields

Discussion in 'Archive' started by Ability, Apr 4, 2013.

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  1. HipHopDragon
    • Warden

    HipHopDragon Warden

    Every singe class can tank. They just have to do it differently, and some might need more help from a medic than another but thats not the point.
    It is about the fact that the game tells you who is allowed to tank and who is not. There are so many different situations in which taking a hit or even going full out tanking is the right decision. Just one example being tank and/or medic dead, currently the system tells you to remake the game because winning by tanking with a non tank obviously shows that you are a bad player. I have won enough of those games to know it is completly viable to win without medic/tank, but the game penalises you for doing what your supposed to do, win the game, instead of giving up. And there are enough other situations in which you might not go full out tank but still get some hits for doing something that helps the team, and every single time you get penalised for actually being and showing that your are a better player.

    Yes you get hit less the better you are, simply because you know how to react to a given situation, but that does not make the opposite true, because you got hit more your are a worse player. Yet, due to on hit system the game will rate you worse.
  2. Kith
    • Development Team
    • Designer

    Kith NOTD Staff: Anti-Fun Wizard Skeleton

    ... if you don't have a medic or a tank, you can, I dunno. Kite or something?

    Literally every boss in NOTD can be kited, and the enemies with high movespeed can almost always be DPSed down before they reach you. You keep making this assertion that it's okay or necessary to take hits, when taking a hit is essentially showing that your kiting wasn't good enough even though kiting is a viable answer to 90% of the enemy situations in NOTD.
    [hr]
    They do have tanks - the Flamethrower and the Cyborg are extremely durable when they need to be. It's not that tough of a comparison, really. They just have jumps and revives. The amount of dudes doesn't really matter, as the balance is about the same.
  3. brizingr5

    brizingr5 Member

    Kiting isn't the answer to everything. We have equipment, skills, and the ability to hold out in siege locations that all give us different options than "run away and hope you can shoot behind you every once in a while." There are other options, and very often those other options take even more skill to do. I don't think that players should be punished for going above and beyond the average "lol no tank rm" or "kite kite kite"
  4. Kith
    • Development Team
    • Designer

    Kith NOTD Staff: Anti-Fun Wizard Skeleton

    ... So how would rating tracking (and penalizing) getting hit do that, again?
  5. brizingr5

    brizingr5 Member

    Aren't you supposed to be making a thread for bo or something leading that whole rating overhaul? I'm just pointing out problems at the moment. Can't expect a solution as soon as a problem comes up.

    I know for certain that a lot of these "fuxpro above and beyond" moves that people do to carry a bit are in the beginning of the game, but that has the whole issue of hits compounding. Perhaps a possible answer would be that if there is no tank class, then all classes aren't effected by hits as much as they would be if there was a tank class.

    Again, something that we need to make a thread about the rating rework for. Not in shield hits.
  6. Kith
    • Development Team
    • Designer

    Kith NOTD Staff: Anti-Fun Wizard Skeleton

    When I'm done with my proposal, yeah. This shit takes time.

    Yyyyeahno definitely not going without tanks. Just because we can get along without them doesn't mean I'm going to cut them out and force people to get along without them. I like working here, thank you very much.

    I'm not like Shooz. I'm not a stickler for staying on topic. If someone presents an argument, I'll answer their questions and argue my side of things. Either way, shield hits as a concept will be staying, they're just going to be integrated a little bit better because the Rating system is going to be fixed.
  7. brizingr5

    brizingr5 Member

    Well I say that (the last thing) because I don't wanna go through the entire discussion now when we have a normal order of things.

    As far as cutting the tank out, you're not really doing that, you're just making it so that players don't get punished for surviving longer than the idiot tank/medic and try to pick up the slack
  8. Kith
    • Development Team
    • Designer

    Kith NOTD Staff: Anti-Fun Wizard Skeleton

    The rating rework will grant loss tolerance as the number of living players diminishes.
  9. brizingr5

    brizingr5 Member

    Well the reason I singled out tank is because he's supposed to be taking all the hits. When you don't have a designated hit taker (that the game recognizes) it's only expected for everybody else to start taking a few of those hits.
  10. Kith
    • Development Team
    • Designer

    Kith NOTD Staff: Anti-Fun Wizard Skeleton

    A few, yes. But not all.
  11. MissHumpz
    • Event Coordinator
    • Community Leader

    MissHumpz NOTD Staff: Event Coordinator & Amazing Amazer

    Lets not eliminate the fact that this game is not at all predictable. Shits going to happen. Its designed to. Enemies can and are going to spawn under your feet, whether it be zombies, ghouls, banes, agrons, brood mothers, Erebos, whatever. Some of these may result in insta death as they may not be able to do much about it. Or you can cope it to the face, barely survive, just to have it happen again 5 minutes later.

    There is an incredibly low chance of a game to come out ideally, where the tank has taken most, if not all the hits, and the team only has a couple of scratches. The game is just way too unpredictable in that manner and nothing can be assumed to run perfectly. If something is going to go wrong, it will.
  12. squish

    squish Well-Known Member

    Because I haven't read the entire thread through and through, and started at page one, I'm going to assume that this hasn't been suggested yet, if I'm wrong, Correct me.

    Why don't we implement a different kind of change. Add a "shield hits" counter, a "total hits" counter, and keep a "life damage" counter.

    Silver Star requirements: 3 or less "life hits" OR, less than or equal to 10 "total hits". Thoughts on this solution?
  13. Kith
    • Development Team
    • Designer

    Kith NOTD Staff: Anti-Fun Wizard Skeleton

    I'unno what game you're playing, but NOTD is pretty predictable on the whole. Yeah, there are some rare "BS" moments, but they're not nearly as common as you seem to think they are.

    No. To both suggestions.

    No matter how you slice it, getting hit is endangering yourself, even if it's only slightly. The new rating system will record hits as hits, but have a much higher leeway in terms of rating loss due to hits. Hits will be punished less, outright death will be punished more.
  14. Ability
    • Development Team
    • NOTD Creator

    Ability NOTD Creator

    I'm fine with a Rating loss cap (scaling with difficulty - higher risk, higher reward) on Hits taken, e.g. 5 per game on Recruit and 10 per game on Nightmare. Right now it's unlimited.
  15. MissHumpz
    • Event Coordinator
    • Community Leader

    MissHumpz NOTD Staff: Event Coordinator & Amazing Amazer

    Oh come off the grass Kith. The number of remakes made per day due to someone getting caught off guard and the game's unpredictably is completely ridiculous. Especially when it reaches the double digits and people just give up and stop playing, can't blame them for the constant fail. I know that feel bro.
  16. vexxenon

    vexxenon Well-Known Member

    To Kith:

    You never have 2 trollworm pop during ac holdout along with massive muta, argon, stalker, dev rush? Oh, also herp.
  17. Kith
    • Development Team
    • Designer

    Kith NOTD Staff: Anti-Fun Wizard Skeleton

    The Hit Cap I'm currently working on is -10 for Recruit and -15 for all other modes, with a 50% reduction for players with less than 10k exp.

    I guess I don't have much sympathy 'cause I've got memories of a fucking Titan spawning on top of the group and everything turning out relatively okay. Maybe I'm just incredibly lucky that every game of NOTD that I've played never really gave me a problem with close-range spawns as they were usually limited to a Ghoul or a regular Zombie or two. The only time I've ever had something spawn close to me that couldn't be DPSed down quickly is during Comms.

    I've had three spawn, actually. Our reactions were essentially "oh jeez trollwor- Okay, anoth- OKAY SERIOUSLY WHAT THE FUCK ABILITY". Even on Nightmare, not difficult to handle. A Smite and a Combat Rifleman Grenade and no more paras. We didn't even have to stop focus-firing the Slashers. Yeah, it's kinda difficult to handle with everything going on at once, but that's how Alpha Company is. It has high periods and low periods, and considering that the low periods are just walking around with nothing really going on aside from the wayward ambient zombie spawn, I can't really find an issue with the high periods being pretty intense.
  18. vexxenon

    vexxenon Well-Known Member

    Ive went a few pages back, and you said essentially that you can kite everything, and no reasons for hits. Sorry, Im not that pro yet, so if you can show me the rope, that'll help me learn. Also, the game where you said you got 0 hits, is it NM? If it is, I for one, and many others would really really want to see the replay of how pros play.
  19. Kith
    • Development Team
    • Designer

    Kith NOTD Staff: Anti-Fun Wizard Skeleton

    What I attempted to (and apparently failed) to convey is not that there's no reason for hits, but that tanks are not strictly necessary because people brought up (multiple times) tanks and "what do we do without tanks" and all of that business. It's less that there's no reason for hits and more it's not necessary to take hits. Sometimes there are situations where you have to take a hit, or WANT to take a hit to save a teammate. Whatever, it happens. I'm just saying that a tank is not strictly necessary and all it takes is a little more effort in kiting and a little more organization in kiting.

    Also, the zero hit game was an Alpha Nightmare, which was "exped". Orderthrower, Surv Rifle, FA Med, Survcon, AssMM, Arms Assault (myself), Arty FO and Delta Mando. Rarely did things get close enough to us to deal damage, and if they did, the Orderthrower took the brunt of it. Really, low hit games are just a question of proper team composition and being heavy on the disables. I know that's a non-standard team comp because of the Assault, but one can easily switch out the Assault for a Combat Engineer for roughly the same effect.
  20. rockz
    • Donator

    rockz Well-Known Member

    I`very done quite a few 0 hit games. Shields were nice but unnecessary. Essentially all you do is stay in the middle of the group at all times and have a good tank take all the hits. This change Imo is unnecessary. I see no good reason for hits to apply to shields. If rating is a reason then change the way rating works. If silver star is the problem then change silver star. Hit count has no direct effect on the game and is a useless stat. I am against the change on the sole basis of public backlash. If you want to change it, add a shield hit category or do not differentiate between hit types and make it 1 to 1. The decimal method is pointless
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