Hello, Friends: The Medic Update/Rework

Discussion in 'Class Discussion' started by Kith, Sep 2, 2013.

  1. Ramses II
    • Donator

    Ramses II Help, I can't change my title!

    I would argue that the nanomedic is more similar to explodemo/desochem/artyfo in that it has large AoE templates and does not use ammo. The primary difference, however, is that nanomedic is the safe version. Unlike marksman/rifleman, these classes could theoretically just go weaponless and barely lose any effectiveness. The three starter classes' offensive trees are, in effect, simplified and safer versions of more advanced classes' offensive trees. (rifle --> amm/mando, med --> demo/chem/fo, ass --> mando)

    To me, this seems sound from a design standpoint.
  2. Kith
    • Development Team
    • Designer

    Kith NOTD Staff: Anti-Fun Wizard Skeleton

    The mechanics are a direct pull, as far as I understand it. Either way, I will happily update the OP to reflect its current mechanics. The only intended change to Nanosear was a slight damage decrease.

    I disagree that she'd be getting too close to the Chemical Expert. They're similar, of course, but they're not so similar that I'm concerned about it. While they may be slightly similar in theme, they're not similar in execution. The Chemical Expert is essentially an alternate version of the Forward Observer, and the Nanomed doesn't fit that bill. That said, I've never liked that there was a support skill on a crowd control caster when the other tree was about support. While it makes her less unique, I don't see the issue with making a support class more combat capable. A good example of this is the Medic from TF2 and the Blutsauger - it makes them less likely to survive when they're healing, but if they're going for combat, well... Combat Medics are extremely dangerous.

    I'm fine with it being a leashed skill rather than a channeled one. I'm also fine with changing it to a burst heal. My biggest issue with the Medic was that there were so many primary healing skills in Field Aid. I don't mind exchanging Healbeam for a different mechanic, it just has to be a straight exchange - I don't want the Medic to have more than two skills that heal a significant amount of hitpoints.
  3. vexxenon

    vexxenon Well-Known Member

    Why work the bubble? or was that discussion not mentioned?

    If you are focused on decreasing the number of skills medic have for hp healing you can remove heal beam and/or weave that gives u two extra skills slows. What is really needed in medic is SL for burst heal/ailement removal (crip, blind, ow), and I stand by my position that in all the games I play, very few people go 3 heal beam as oppose to 3 SL, so removing heal beam all together in my opinion wouldn't hurt anyone. You can also remove weave if you want, and even then, medic have the essentials. Shield heal, ailement removal, venom removal, hp heal.
  4. Kith
    • Development Team
    • Designer

    Kith NOTD Staff: Anti-Fun Wizard Skeleton

    Aside from the title and intro, it was literally the first thing discussed in the thread, and has been discussed by myself and Arturia several times. That said, I reworked Nanoshield because I felt it was more appropriate as a Tier 3 skill in comparison to the Medic's previous abilities. Tier 1 is ailment mitigation (countering the reduced movement speed and restoring hitpoints), Tier 2 is ailment curing (outright curing them and gaining access to more healing to restore hitpoints lost to ailments), and Tier 3 is ailment prevention (making them not happen in the first place). Nanohaste is there for players that want to go the route of the Buff Cleric rather than the Heal Cleric.

    You have yet to give me factual evidence as to why I should do this. Everything you've said so far is because you want the Medic to be that way and "everyone else" does what you do as well.

    You want to know why I pushed for Healbeam? Because it keeps players occupied, and it means more strategy in positioning. The shorter the time it takes to confer a heal, the less positioning strategy that's required, and I'm not a fan of "less strategy". If push comes to shove and nobody wants the healbeam, then I'll cut it in favor of something more bursty, but the point is that push hasn't come to shove nor will it come to shove because everyone I've asked has been in favor of cutting SL for Nanostrength and making ailment healing a little more varied. This included not only veterans, but individuals that do not play NOTD, and therefore would be in "newbie" status (when designing concepts, I sometime ask my friends for feedback so I can get an idea of how NOTD is viewed through someone who's never played it so I get a wider scope of feedback).
    • Informative Informative x 1
  5. Arturia

    Arturia Well-Known Member

    For Nanohaste, will you elaborate on "catastrophically worse" because Nanohaste effectively reduces Cooldowns and regeneration delays by 50%, increases attack speed, reload speed, move speed, acceleration and regeneration by 50% and ultimately leads to shortening the relative period of time a player is afflicted with an ailment. I can't really think of how it makes an ailment worse unless the ailment was already pretty bad.

    Would it be correct to assume that the opposite holds true, that the longer it takes to confer a heal, the more positioning and strategy is required? Would making heal only do 1/2/3 hp be better because it takes more time, thus more positioning and strategy?

    There's a big difference between cutting a pseudo-passive to move / implement a skill and cutting a skill to replace it with another. I'm doubtful that they were in favor of removing SL in its entirety rather than simply removing the pseudo-passive aspect of SL.

    I will say that I find having two HoT heals to be rather redundant. The fact that Heal Ray and Nanoweave are so similar should be troubling at this point. The medic is mostly steam-lined into a single play style (for field aid) with a small amount of room for individuality, but not a significant amount. The key point between SL vs Heal was a matter of speed vs efficiency, and that lead towards two different yet viable build paths for FA medic. At the moment, it seems like medic is being forced down a HoT only route. The only "choice" that appears is between Nano-weave and nano-heal, but its more likely that players will go 1/3 2/2 1 so that the player can have some reasonable ability to cure ailments. Nanostrength is unlikely to be maxed until everything else has been maxed.
  6. vexxenon

    vexxenon Well-Known Member

    Kith, Lets start out by me focusing on FA side of Medic and won't even go into NANO.

    In my opinion, medic, being medic is there to heal and remove ailments, currently FA medic can remove, cripple, ow, blind, venom, at the get go, which serves the purpose. What good is a medic if your teammate is stacked with ailments beginning and you have no way to remove half of those? You can tell me to not get hit in the first place, but is that possible? a single game without anyone getting any hit? Then why not remove medic all together?

    Based on your original post, your goal for FA medic rework is based on Bubble and the 4 skills that heal hitpoints. Your goal is to nerf Bubble, and make changes to the 4 skills that heal hitpoint (and or replace) so medic don't sit around for ally hp to go down. I think medic is perfectly fine sitting around and wait for ally hp to go down, that is his/her job, and only job, why else do you have a medic if he/she isn't there to heal when you need heal? That being said, you're telling me that people don't utilize the range of medic skills? I use SL for small cuts and ailments, I use weave for asstank, mando, tech, heavy stacks, I use av for venom removal, I use my T3 for energy and quick mass ailments removal + energy for team, maybe the only skill I don't use is heal beam, but you claim many people uses that. Of course, all those are based on my experience playing medic, and you claim people that you spoke to, including vets don't share the same view as I do. Ok I'm fine with that, and I'm only here to give you my opinion.

    Back to your first point of nerfing bubble. You can nerf Bubble several ways, without even changing it to a T3 skills. I've already said this in a previous post, but I'll state it again. These are just ideas, but you can make bubble not give you full shield, you can make bubble that gives shield over time, you can give bubble more energy to cast, you can make bubble longer cd, you can make bubble range, you can even make a cast time for bubble. All those are ways of nerfing bubble without major tweaks to the FA medic. Unless you want to move the T2 skill to T3.

    In order to make medic more interactive, you can make SL only treat Blind, heal beam (or nano strength if you so wish to change) fix Crip, Weave fix OW, Bubble being nerfed as I discussed above, and T3 stay as it is. Now you are utilizing full range of medic skills to fix ailments without blinding mashing R as a go to button to fix ailments.

    The above ideas fix your original intent on FA medic
    without a major overhaul of the current medic, and is probably less subjected to resistance to change. And let me state once more, I am strongly oppose to the idea that I sit around waiting for my allies hp to go down being "NOT FUN". In fact, if their hp isn't going down dramatically, I'd say I'm doing a pretty damn job at keeping them healthy, or the team is doing a pretty damn good job at not getting hits.

    I like to close out with the following
    How is it different than you wanted the Medic to be REWORKED and "everyone else" does what you do as well?
  7. Kith
    • Development Team
    • Designer

    Kith NOTD Staff: Anti-Fun Wizard Skeleton

    It's mentioned in the tooltip the body is going into overdrive, and I'm pretty sure it's common knowledge that you should not push yourself when you're injured. I was going to wait for the actual mechanical details until ailments in NOTD 2 got more fleshed out, but for a NOTD example, ailment stacks would be tripled. I feel that a player being in good health for one of the largest potential DPS increases in the game is not too much to ask.

    First off, stop attempting to antagonize me by spouting stupid shit. I know you're smarter than that. Secondly, while that would require more positioning and strategy, that would not be "better".

    Actually, most of them were. As it turns out, having a single skill respond to most ailment issues is not very interesting. As one friend of mine put it, "If I'm going to play the doctor I'd like it to require me using the right tool for the right problem instead of just using one skill to cure four different things. Isn't NOTD all about using the right thing at the right time anyways?" Granted, they're a fan of the Trauma Center games so they're crazy by default, but my point remains: 90% of the feedback I've gotten on the removal of Surgical Laser has either been outright positive or neutral.

    You're conveniently ignoring the bonus that Healing Hands gives to Bandages. The player is entirely capable of going 3/1 in Tier 1, using the extra DPS to keep her players safe (and possibly getting some kills herself to make herself level faster) and relying on minor healing and the overabundance of medical supplies to keep people alive until she hits Tier 2. It isn't about simple efficiency anymore - it is now about efficiency and tactics and deciding if a good offense or a good defense is better in your role as a Support class. Alternately, it can be both - 2/2 is viable.

    I steadfastly believe that burst heal abilities, in the context of NOTD, are too strong and should be avoided if at all possible, because they can bring someone back from the brink of death in an instant. It requires more skill both from the Medic and from the injured player to stay alive under heavy fire, and it is solely through the player's own actions that they will be damaged. A good example of this lies within Starcraft II's normal gameplay. The only race that has an instant heal is the Zerg with the Queen's Transfusion, because the Zerg primarily focuses on heavy use of melee units (meaning they are more likely to be damaged) and are universally Biological. The other race's heals are over time because they have more ranged power and a wider unit type variety.

    Players in NOTD are never forced to take hits (and even if they are hit by something "unavoidable", often their shields are enough to eat it without losing them rating or putting them at risk of ailments), so why should they have access to a burst heal ability? "Variety" isn't enough of an answer, considering that Nanoweave is enough variety in and of itself. Considering that the Medic's main healing ability can only target one unit and allowing it to target multiple units would get rather stupid (and also be uninspired, considering that WoL featured such an upgrade for Medivacs), Nanoweave is the perfect answer to that problem. You can use it to heal two units or once, or you can use it to heal the same unit as you're healbeaming to obtain better efficiency.

    We're off to a great start. You cannot simply ignore the other tree that a class has because it's convenient to your argument.

    And this is why. Why should the Nanomedic, a crowd control caster, be able to do this?

    Each player in the game begins with one skillpoint. With one (1) skillpoint, a Medic player can access Heal and Antivenom. Additionally, the Medic spawns with two fibrin bandages. If Antivenom and two OW cures are not enough to solve your problem, the "good" of a Medic is either being able to keep up the healing without use of items through use of the Healbeam or to speed up the injured player with Nanostrength to keep them with the team and keep the team from spending too long in a dangerous area. You're acting like it's impossible to deal with ailments unless they're cured outright, which is stupid.

    Stop attempting to use the Straw Man. You're not good at it.

    The bottom line is that the Medic is just a base class. The fact that you instantly assume she's there to heal instead of thinking "hey, maybe she's not here for a single purpose" is an enormous problem. The Rifleman isn't always going to be a DPS, the Assault isn't always going to be the tank, the Marksman isn't always going to be the sniper, and the Demo is not always going to be blowing things up. The fact that her class name is "Medic" is largely superficial.

    That said, while you may be "perfectly fine" with that sort of gameplay? Many aren't, and that dissatisfaction has shown itself multiple times in various settings. For instance, in Dungeons and Dragons - while the Cleric has the ability to heal, and healing is important, Clerics have much more to do than just heal. The more options a player has, the more likely they are to tailor the character to their tastes and therefore create their own unique playstyle rather than doing the same thing every time.

    I could do any of those, you're right. I explored all of those options except for shield over time, because the Engineer's Repair already does that. Anyways, the reason I didn't do any of those because it still left "ailment prevention" in Tier 2, which was strange when the Tier 3 was just "more healing. Like I said, I chose to put it in Tier 3 because of the reason you seem to have conveniently ignored from my last response to one of your posts:

    It is a natural progression. I didn't want to necessarily nerf bubble, I just wanted to put it in the proper place and give it the "Tier 3 impact", which is why it now has an area of effect, comes with bonus energy, and grants double the shield armor that it used to. It is now capable of protecting the entire team in a single cast rather than something that can be spammed on the tank to make most boss battles nearly a foregone conclusion.

    Could. Didn't. For a variety of reasons, actually.

    Oh, no. It would be, because you yourself said it:

    You're not mad at my design, you're mad at the fact that I'm daring to make ailment management more difficult. Your changes would attract just as much resistance, if not more, considering that it would just be a straight nerf rather than a retooling that at least makes the attempt to give the Medic more avatar strength in return for cutting an exploitable tactic.

    I don't know about you, but my experiences with FA Med have either been boring (because everyone was good enough to not get hit/only get hit slightly) or frustrating (because someone got their ass beaten and I'm out of energy and now someone else lost their arm to an Agron). Neither entertained me very much. Everyone that I've been able to introduce to the game was not particularly entertained by it either. Remember the Wednesday Night Sprites feature (posted earlier in this topic, even), where Chanman openly regretted going Medic because he had nothing to do? That is not an isolated incident. Whether or not you, a single player, enjoy doing nothing but healing is a moot point - many other people don't.

    I'm assuming you meant "does what I want" or "wants what I want", neither of which are accurate. This thread should be example enough, but believe me when I say that not all of my testing audience likes everything that I do.

    That said, part of my job description is polishing concepts. I've wanted to stop work on NOTD for many months now - ask Shooz, if you're so inclined. Frankly, polishing other concepts is tiring, and I haven't been interested in reworking or even rebalancing the Medic because no matter what I did, I'd greatly piss off someone even though I put forth my best effort to not change too much about the gameplay dynamic while still updating it to be more balanced, intuitive, and interactive. This is the result of more effort than I've ever put forward in polishing a class and people are still mad about it.

    I don't know if you're suggesting that I did this just because I wanted to because your post isn't entirely clear to me, but I feel this needs reposting anyways:

  8. DLINK

    DLINK Well-Known Member

    Nanohaste would make each tick on each stack of ailment on the target go by 50% quicker, so 1 stack of OW will do 1 damage per 0.66 seconds instead of once per second (?). It would cause cripple and blind to disappear quicker though. I'm not sure about this, but will healbeam actually apply faster on a nanohasted target?
  9. Arturia

    Arturia Well-Known Member

    Heal Ray would not apply faster, unless the medic is under the effect of Nano-Haste, if my understanding of how Heal Ray is made is correct.

    It doesn't apply any behaviors or buffs to the target, rather, it modifies unit health points by a number.

    I can say for a fact that it would cause Nanoweave to "heal" faster.

    I'm very doubtful that Heal Ray will heal a nano-hasted target faster.
  10. bunny

    bunny Member

    I just gotta say, all these combos are gonna confuse the hell out of new players. They already dont understand mobcon...

    Also, the idea of "forcing people to learn" really won't help the game's popularity. As med is one of the few classes available to new players I don't think making medic more complicated and harder to use is a good idea.
  11. Kith
    • Development Team
    • Designer

    Kith NOTD Staff: Anti-Fun Wizard Skeleton

    Nanohaste would also make the unit's health regeneration increase, and the healing rate of medkits, and ect. I'm not actually sure how it would work with the healbeam.

    Doubt it. Every other zombie survival small squad game has specific ailment cures and they get along just fine.

    Perhaps. Perhaps not. I doubt that it will make the game less popular - people are more likely to get invested in something that they can say with confidence that they're good at.
  12. Alice

    Alice New Member

    Oh boy here I go....

    I played NOTD SC yesterday for the first time and I picked the medic both times, because well that's my class. It left a bad taste in my mouth. I won't explain what about the medic left me wanting and instead focus on the future changes, because that's what matters at this point.

    I'm also going to say I'm sorry ahead of time to Kith, because I won't comment on the nanomedic. I play to heal, I'm sorry man, years of NOTD II and AM ruined me to only do that.

    1. Nanostrength "steroids" - I think the energy cost should be higher and the cooldown should be higher. I'm not sure it's a starcraft thing or not but I don't like that I can roid everyone on the team in under a minute. I am very against spamming skills quickly. Running out of mana to heal people was sometimes a part of survival in games and it made the people around you more careful. They knew you couldn't handle taking care of 9 other players very quickly. (NOTDAM- 30s CD/30 mana/for 45s_NOTD II* - 15s CD/20 mana/for 25s)

    2. First aid - Well done my friend, putting anti venom out in the front instead of some menu is very useful. Both notdam and notd II required the medic to go into a menu to find the cure to the aliments. It was sometimes very confusing for new players because they wouldn't be able to find them. I think anti venom should have a cooldown though (NOTDAM -6s CD/30 mana_NOTD II* about 15s/25 mana)
    Also, I'm glad to see heal is still one of the skills. I felt the main idea behind using heal was for when you were on cooldown and you didn't have a medkit.

    3. Nanoweave - I think the skills is fantastic the way it is, I of course like things to be a little close and would want the cooldown to be higher to like 15s or 20s.

    4. Healing hands - perfect, love that skills continue to get better to encourage the future use of them. Had a problem with that last night at the end of the game I only used two skills the justice/freedom like skill that i could spam and the shield. It really made me sick that the rest of my skills were pretty much not needed then.

    5. Nanoshield - I dislike this skill because currently I can keep using it and pretty much the person I use it on can tank whatever they fuck they want. That is complete bullshit and should never be allowed. The changes made to this skill are very good for the future of this game. Longer cooldown, more mana required makes this skill important because you can only use it in emergencies. I would foresee myself using this to cover an injured team mate so I can heal them.

    6. Nanohaste - As of right now I don't have an opinion on the new late game skill. It sounds like an interesting skill and I would actually like to get my hands on it and use before forming an opinion on it.

    Some of you reading this might think I'm a mad women for wanting to increase cooldown and mana requirements. I would just like to remind you that this is a survival map. There should be some difficulty to it, being able to heal every aliment you can get in the beginning of the game doesn't encourage gamers to become better. We don't want lazy tanky community that bitch that they can't slaughter every zombie in the entire map or that they can't tank the final boss. It was my first time playing the game last night and the team won both times. It was completely ridiculous, why would I want to play a game that can be beaten that easily? there isn't a damn thing keeping me coming back. You need some kind of challenge to egg you on and keep you coming back for more. I believe the changes made to this medic class improve it not weaken it. Medics are doctors and should be healing people. I don't like being told to spam a skill like I'm some fucking autocasting robot. I am here to heal you, to take care of you, so let me touch you with my healing stick.

    P.S I am not a developer and I have never helped balanced a game before or improved skills. This is solely my opinion based on playing Night of the dead II, Night of the dead: Aftermath, Dawn of the dead and other small zombie survival maps for more than 5 years.

    *All Notd II cooldown and how long effects last is an estimate, skills don't show the exact time. I counted the time using one mississippis
  13. a new view to the changes, you convinced me :D although i was against that, but have you tried nm? or even recruit with SR > 1700.Over there in nm it hurts a lot to make one mistake it is really survival.
  14. Alice

    Alice New Member

    Honestly I felt a little disgusted with myself after having watched and helped a team mate tank the last boss. I'm sure nightmare is more hard as I was just a recruit. The problem I have currently is mostly with the medics skills. At the end of the game my other skills are rendered pretty useless as I can just use the nano shield and restoration. That's not how I would think in a my mind a medic should be used. I don't know if you ever had the pleasure, but it use to take many games to actually beat the older notd games on wc3 on normal. The notd gods weren't very forgiving and would try to stomp on your face every chance you got. With Kith's "nerfs" I believe he is going to make it survival but still have it beatable. He has told me it doesn't want the game difficulty to be a cliff but a slope.

    Getting off topic...as the medic stands now I don't want to play. I know difficulty will always be an issue because the want for new players and the challenge for older ones is a hard balance, but right now I would just like my medic.

    Sorry if i sound a little ranty, i was a little crushed by the gameplay. I'm going to go hide in the sheep pen now
  15. TheWolf
    • Donator

    TheWolf Surgeon of Death

    i like medic how it currently is. the upcoming rework will hopefully improve it. granted ill miss impregnabubble but at least it will stop all these max SL first players. and honestly bubble doesnt make everything tankable. maybe on a demo or to save dsm /flamer during slithers. for the rest a combo fo beam + weave can be overpowered aswell. and if you dont care bout nc you just pop 1 to 3 medkits aswell and nth will get throu your flesh. in that regard nth will change, actually it will be even easier to use asstank^^. it only changes some things for ec with demo and ac. rest is same old

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