Hello, Friends: The Medic Update/Rework

Discussion in 'Class Discussion' started by Kith, Sep 2, 2013.

  1. Ramses II
    • Donator

    Ramses II Help, I can't change my title!


    Vex, has anyone ever told you that you're bad at reading before you post? I said the STRATEGY we use now is almost exactly the same as the STRATEGY we used before the AC rework. Of course I fucking noticed the difference between the difficulty before and after the rework. I played regularly both before and after the rework and the strategy used didn't change a bit. I then took a break for a few months and came back to play a few games this past month. The strategy again, seemed pretty much exactly the same as it was before and right after the rework.

    And yeah, the purpose of half the storyline/boss/whatever reworks in the past year (since we got mister Anti-Fun Wizard Skeleton) has been to try to make the storylines harder and try to bring them in line with the Boss's desired win-rates. I don't really feel like looking for the quote, but I definitely remember Ability saying a few years back (during the development of Sec route B) that he wanted like 20% of perfectly set up teams going into Hades to succeed, and less than 5% of them to get MoH. I dunno how much his expectations have changed, but I am pretty sure we still aren't anywhere near how difficult it should be.

    VERY few people should be able to get MOH, and you should be almost able to count the number of people who get MOH speed on one hand. (shut up about that not actually being possible, I know you don't have 8 fingers on one hand)
  2. Kith
    • Development Team
    • Designer

    Kith NOTD Staff: Anti-Fun Wizard Skeleton


    To counter the bigger reward that AC NM gives over EC NM, yes, the increased difficulty was absolutely intended. AC NM was easier than EC NM (which is dumb, because EC NM is supposed to be the easiest NM).

    They can be completed in roughly the same time frame, it's just that AC NM requires a higher amount of player skill and therefore gives more rewards. I don't understand why you find this to be a problem.
    • Winner Winner x 1
  3. Kith
    • Development Team
    • Designer

    Kith NOTD Staff: Anti-Fun Wizard Skeleton


    Bring up "actually playing" one more goddamn time and I will kick you out of this forum for a week.
  4. vexxenon

    vexxenon Well-Known Member

    Well, lets see. At the current game 2.55, if I want bigger rewards, I can see that being a problem for the following reasons:

    1) If AC NM is that pain in the ass, I'll skip it completely, and move onto SEC and SURV all together for $$ and EXP. People already doing.
    2) If you tell me that SEC and SURV needs further balancing, and is not done yet, then I don't know how difficult game would have to get in order to justify what MOH needs to be. Given the state/age of the current game, and the number of reworks that has yet been relased, I don't see this being a possibility way into the future (unless u're already doing it).

    Ozy, I welcome you to take the lead on changing strategy for AC NM.

    Of course we can kite dem, of course we can kite all the spawns during holdout (not that anyone really want to do that), of course we can go to the island in the middle of the map instead of fort, or elsewhere. But if you still want to get speed, I find that pretty difficult even at the best time. Now you have to factor in Chrono and IVAX, which took substancially longer to kill.

    Chrono strategy is limited, you have to lure him out of creep, dps, avoid dmg, all in a cluserfuck of lab/dome d.

    IVAX, needless to say is even more lawl, any burst dps makes him cloak. On top of that, you are suppose to dps and dodge all those mines, half of which drains your energy. So killing it in a reasonable/timely manner is no longer the case.
  5. rockz
    • Donator

    rockz Well-Known Member

    I count to 31 on one hand.

    Energy on a Field Aid medic is a joke. I can't see any time when I wouldn't have plenty of energy as field aid medic, since you took away every single spammable skill and replaced it with something that only costs 10 energy and lasts tons of time, and is really only useful to keep on big dps folks, as it's tedious to keep on the rest of the team.

    I feel like you've killed the Field Aid medic to the point where no good players will ever use it. I'm not saying that all builds should be viable in all situations, but you should really try to make classes that will actually be used in all levels of play.

    I feel the same way about the useless asstank.
  6. Kith
    • Development Team
    • Designer

    Kith NOTD Staff: Anti-Fun Wizard Skeleton

    More like already been done. AC isn't the only storyline that's getting a harder Nightmare, if I recall correctly. If people don't like the increased difficulty, then... they can play non-Nightmare. You don't fire up Devil May Cry and choose Dante Must Die for an easy game.

    The biggest complaint that I've received about the FA Med in its current state is a raw lack of energy, so I can't really view this as anything but good.

    The "New FA Med" is still viable. Its healing power doesn't go down with difficulty. The Asstank is also still viable, and in some small ways is better than the Demotank. Considering that both classes still have an alternative tree if the team decides that FA or Asstank isn't necessary, then there's no problem in my eyes. Nanomed is a welcome addition to most storylines thanks to its disable strength and armor shred. I've personally witnessed a Nanomed deal more damage than most Opsmandos thanks to stacking Nanosear. Arms Ass is a welcome addition thanks to its raw DPS potential with the disable packaged in as well. A tree being less necessary for a storyline due to mechanics or player skill isn't a bad thing.
  7. Arturia

    Arturia Well-Known Member

    Oh Boy, here we go indeed.

    For some unknown reason, nobody is questioning the Killzone ability of Nanomedic. That is, the ability throw down 5 AoE templates and watch everything burn for 100 DPS while being inside for 42% longer. Unfortunately, its useless except in Easy Company vs Queen, because Infested Marines are a stupid concern to have with them eating 100 DPS. Unless everyone is getting their T3 super early, its obtained just as any semblance of enemy hoards come. Maybe useful for Apollo A and very useful for Hades 1, but its promoting Static Defense.

    Sorry, typically, I'm pretty happy about reworks, but this is probably the first one I saw and went "Well then". Its the type of rework that makes me question why the hell we bothered to make Surgical Laser an innate skill. Its also the type of rework that makes me think "Lets keep DPS up for the entire queen fight," because the T3 of Field Aid does just that, not to mention the T3 of Field Aid completely contradicts the attitude of T1 & T2; that is, T3 prides itself on being "Proactive" but every medic skill is "Reactive", thus making the "crowning epitome" of Field Aid medic contradict everything about medic.

    I'm not even remotely close to being a Fan of Healing Hands, simply because it reminds me of every problem a new player had with NOTDSO's Medic. That is, you can't cure anything until you're a decent portion into the game and the ailments you can't cure tend to be the ones that like to pop up the most.

    And looking at Nano Medic, it feels too try-hard to bother with "Synergy," which has become a fancy way to say "chain cast these spells in this order and I'll give you a cookie". Its an excuse to make skills into what is commonly referred to as niche or useless.

    First off, you're telling me to level the worst slow skill in the game. Second off, you're telling me to promote not-monofilament cartridge. Third off, you're telling me to invest everything in order to maybe get a return on my investment. I.e., 255 damage and a 3 second stun at the cost of 40 energy every 10 seconds. Can you give me a good reason to not say "Fuck this shit, I'm going to go Marksman and put 3 points into Monofilament Cartridge for 160 damage and 3 seconds of stun every 2 seconds at the cost of 20 energy, thus yielding me 320 damage and 6 seconds of stun for 40 energy." Because no matter how you slice the cake, Marksman spends only 3 skill points compared to 8, gets better energy efficiency and is also useful in other scenarios. Is the solution to overhaul every class in the game, thus undermining any resemblance of game balance that once existed?

    You've tailored Field Aid Medic to be useless for the most part and forced Nano Medic to be a stationary DPSer with less than adequate "Synergy" skills. Field Aid medic is forced to be more static due to First Aid being a primary ailment fix and the fact that you turned Nanoshield into something that really just doesn't do much unless you're camping. Nano Medic used to be a capable Kite Caster because of Nano Strength and Nano Sear, but you've turned it into something that has the premier skill of laying down a combination of Psi Storm and Countermeasures in an area, permanently.

    Thanks but no thanks; I can't find any logical reason to have this type of rework except for confusing everything and pushing the game further towards a campfest. I thought the idea was to make Kiting a viable tactic, not to make it into the choice of a fool or lucky fool.

    The game is supposed to be in its "polishing phases" with no major content changes, but all of these intended class reworks are at the point where the game has went back one stage. Rather than becoming a completed product, it took a step back and is now going to require further balancing and bug fixing. In all honesty, I'm guessing that a majority of players are getting burnt out over this. Those veterans with over 100k XP that are better qualified to give feedback than the me who hasn't played for at least 6 months are probably going to be finishing their stay in NOTD and moving on to other games. They're not going to be here for much longer, despite having so much experience with the game and being so knowledge about it. They'll eventually be done playing, and you'll be hoping that there is someone else there to take their place to give feedback, to report bugs, and to play the game. There's a point where you need to put down the line and say "The game will now just be focused on bug and gameplay fixes," because otherwise this game will remain in an eternal state of development and players won't be seeing a NOTD2.
  8. supernova

    supernova New Member

    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ x100000000000000000000000000000000000

    (sorry but i don't know how to like/thumbs up posts in this forum layout)

    and here i thought rifleman, assault and medic were meant to be the staple classes. i mean, that's what you start off with when you first play the game.

    now with the nerf to medic with thoughts of making it more challenging for the 'vets/experienced' players?

    good luck trying to bring in and hold new players of the game. medic/healer is one of the most stock standard and needed classes in any rpg/mmorpg/survival team-based game and it's now reduced to this. new players who are well versed in the above game types will pick medic and think to themselves 'THIS is what you call a MEDIC in this game?!?!?!' making the medic of NOTD the laughing stock of all medic/healers.

    how are these changes any useful for new people? not only that, it makes it more difficult for the 'new' medics to keep their whole team alive. you've given new players a medic that even vets/experienced players will have somewhat a difficult time grasping.

    in my opinion, there is really nothing wrong with the current medic, at all. why try to fix something that obviously isn't broken?

    some of these updates/changes/balances seem to be made just for the sake of it.
  9. Zeriathyr

    Zeriathyr Well-Known Member

    Just as an afterthought regarding the regular healing, is it possible to make it autocast? As in allow for toggle on/off in situations where game might lag or allow for easier micro?
  10. Kith
    • Development Team
    • Designer

    Kith NOTD Staff: Anti-Fun Wizard Skeleton

    The Forward Observer does the same deal. I don't see a problem with it.

    I heavily disagree with that. The best way to handle being sick is not being sick in the first place. The entire point of the Medic is to be defensive, so I'd say that a durability buff is more than appropriate for a Tier 3 skill.

    The only ailments that players cannot heal until they reach Healing Hands are Short Circuit, Madness, and Cripple. Open Wounds can be managed with Bandages or mitigated with Heal, Antivenom is something you get when you drop one (1) point into First Aid, and Cripple can be managed by using Nanostrength and the victim sprinting. Short Circuit is out of the Medic's hands and Madness is there to punish you for getting hit a bunch anyways, and it's even beneficial. Madness just forces you to change your playstyle, and if you really want it gone, you can tank some more hits and it'll go when you get into the low health range.

    The Medic being able to handle 90% of the ailments in the game as soon as she hits the field is complete and utter bullshit. No other class can solve an entire facet of gameplay simply by being there.

    With this rework: early game, she can mitigate the ailments. Midgame, she can cure them. Late game, she can prevent them.

    That's called a "logical progression of avatar strength", and it ties in to what I was saying previously about Nanoshield as a Tier 3.

    I don't see how damage and crowd control are useless.

    • The Nanomedic has way more energy than the Marksman, partially from having nearly double the Marksman's energy regeneration and partially because Energy Capacitors make things a little crazy. 40 energy to a Marksman is not the same thing as 40 energy to a Medic.
    • The Medic has a bonus to shared experience, which the Marksman does not. Nanomedics often outlevel even Commandos thanks to the fact that they have killing power AND bonus experience, meaning that a higher skill tree investment is not necessarily a bad thing.
    • Monofilament is a "dangerous" skill, in that it can damage (and stun) teammates. Nanoshock and Nanothrust deal no damage to teammates, and as a result are not as powerful because they require less skill to manage.
    • Nothing in the Marksman's arsenal actually synergizes with Monofilament other than it being a useful skill and his other skills being useful.
    • Nanoshock's stun/slow synergizes with Nanosear, keeping things in the area of effect longer. Nanothrust synergizes with Volatile Injection, giving the Nanomedic a relatively high damage skill to proc unit death with.

    "Useless". You know, I've seen that thrown around a lot. What's funny is that the opinions on this rework have been so glaringly polarized - it's about a 50:50 ratio of "This is awesome" to "I hate it and it needs to die".

    That said, I can't help but dismiss this sentiment as hyperbole with an agenda because you failed to provide an adequate reason as to why. The Medic Rework features better hitpoint management and the addition of a castable buff which is an enormous boon to the Medic's supporting role. The only thing that I actually nerfed is the Medic's ailment management - with Shield as a Tier 3, players can no longer spam it, meaning it will mostly be reserved for bossfights or hordes. With the removal of SL, players will have to demonstrate more teamwork (the entire point of this game) to defend an injured teammate before the Medic can completely cure ailments.

    This setup is not a new idea. NOTD: Aftermath was much the same way, as are The Rising Dead and Undead Assault 3 (for some more recent examples). A novice healer isn't going to know how to set a bone, mend a fracture, or apply a rapid cauterization to seal a wound - they're going to know how to bandage someone up and that's about it.

    What's funny about this sentiment is that the Nanomed hasn't really changed all that much. The only thing that really happened with Nanomed is that I split Nanoshock into its base components and moved Nanostrength, something that I rarely saw used by Nanomeds anyways. I built some additional skill synergy into Energy Capacitors as well, but not much else has changed. You're acting like I've made Nanomed into someone that has no mobility whatsoever when I haven't really done that much. If she was a stationary DPSer before, she's still a stationary DPSer now - and even then, there's nothing wrong with that. NOTD features multiple holdout situations, and "stationary DPSers" are pretty useful.

    I don't see how Nanoshield "doesn't really do much unless you're camping". You'll have to explain that one to me. Nanoshield doesn't reduce one's movespeed.

    You're acting like the Medic isn't in posession of one of the highest movespeeds in the game and can't outrun anything by simply holding fire and sprinting.

    I laid out the logical reasons for you. That said, while I prefer kiting over camping, at no point was it stated that this rework was supposed to make the former more viable than the latter. The point of this rework was to make the Medic less powerful in curing and defending the team from ailments, and in that I have succeeded.

    While I'd love to see your source on that, it doesn't actually matter if you have one or not. Just like how NOTD was going to upgrade to HOTS in July, sometimes decisions get made and things change. Is there an enormous backlog of stuff to do that wasn't there before that's strictly my doing? Absolutely. However, Ability hired me to make that stuff. What's more is that this is not even a for-sure thing! No matter what I do, Ability's still got the final say on what goes into the map because he's the head developer. I'm just doing my job by identifying what I believe to be design issues and creating fixes so this can become a more professionally polished product. I intend on putting NOTD on my resume, so of course I'm going to work my ass off to make it look as good as possible. Sometimes that goes beyond a little bugfixing and goes straight into retooling clunky or imbalanced elements of the game.


    Dogg, I don't know if you know this, but I am done with NOTD. With the submission of the Medic Rework, I am officially on vacation and resting up to start working full-time on NOTD 2. Is there still stuff to be done for NOTD? Sure. But Arcane and Ability have plenty of time to do it, 'cause as it turns out making a new game from scratch takes an awful lot of time. The only remaining duties I have for NOTD are managing this thread and adjusting the rework based on user feedback as I see fit (which I'll be doing in a post after this one).

    It's a donator reward.

    You seem to have misread my logic behind the changes. The Medic Rework happened because the Medic is:
    A: Painfully redundant in multiple ways
    B: Plagued by poor progression of skills that leave little for the player to do other than heal or defend
    C: Despite both A and B, still managing to be wildly overpowered

    Beside those points, it's not a straight nerf. The efficiency of the Medic's healing has increased by a significant margin. The only actual hard nerf to Field Aid was the moving of Nanoshield to Tier 3. The Medic's capability for handling ailment was not removed, just spread out and stilted in progression.

    That sure is some hyperbole you're sporting there. Nevermind that I actually made healing more efficient.

    Increased healing efficiency for healbeam, nanoweave, and bandages, no cooldown on Antivenom, an offensive buff that provides the Medic with a purpose if nobody's hurt, ect.

    That sure is some opinion you're sporting there. Nearly everyone I've asked about the Medic are excited about it for one reason or another. A good example is this conversation that I literally JUST HAD with Mirage:
    Show Spoiler
    [12:57:10 PM] altairmiraged: hey
    [12:57:15 PM] altairmiraged: are those medic changes in yet, or pending?
    [1:00:16 PM] Melonwood: pending
    [1:00:19 PM] Melonwood: very pending
    [1:00:30 PM] altairmiraged: gay, had me interested in playing medic today in a game :p
    [1:00:50 PM] Melonwood: Bug Arcane to get the FO and the Flamethrower done
    [1:00:52 PM] Melonwood: and then the medic can go in
    [1:01:08 PM] altairmiraged: hey man a guy on vacation can't be complaining.....
    [1:01:14 PM] altairmiraged: :p kidding, fucking with you
    [1:02:10 PM] Melonwood: I'm not complaining
    [1:02:12 PM] Melonwood: I'm over here
    [1:02:22 PM] altairmiraged: 'over here'?
    [1:03:02 PM] Melonwood: yeah
    [1:03:03 PM] Melonwood: over here.
    [1:03:04 PM] Melonwood: not over there.


    One man's trash is another man's treasure. Just because you consider it to not be broken doesn't mean that it's not broken, and considering you haven't provided any logic for your arguments or reasoning or anything of the sake I'm not very inclined to pay your opinion any mind.


    If you truly think that, I can't stop you. However, I've laid out my reasoning for these changes in multiple posts, and none of these reasons are "because I felt like changing it". I have been putting off publishing this rework for at least two months because I knew. I knew that people were going to get aggressive and defensive over it. I didn't make a single change without first heavily considering the impact that it would have on the game and the players, and more than once I scrapped my progress and started over completely. I do not make frivolous changes because I can. I am not one of those people who likes to change things simply because they have the power to change things - I've already made my mark on this game and this community many times over, and if I was one of those people, I would've been satisfied when the Technician got accepted to replace Bob.

    I do not make changes to things just to make changes, because changes put stress on the other developers and the community at large and I don't really enjoy making people stressed or angry or frustrated because it makes me stressed or angry or frustrated in turn. I don't know about you, but I don't really enjoy experiencing any of those things. I completed this rework because I saw a problem and it's my job to provide solutions to problems, not screw around and make something stupid because I like being miserable. If anyone has told you that I make changes for the sake of it, then they obviously don't know me and they for sure do not understand the emotional impact that this job has.
  11. Kith
    • Development Team
    • Designer

    Kith NOTD Staff: Anti-Fun Wizard Skeleton

    Updates as of Wednesday, September 04
    • Nanostrength duration changed to 20/25/30 seconds from 35 at all levels.
    • Healing Hands changed to Heal curing Open Wounds and Nanostrength curing Cripple at Level 1, with Antivenom gaining a reduced energy cost and Nanoweave curing a minor amount of Venom during its duration at Level 2.
    • Nanoshield bonus shield armor changed to 4 from 2.
    • Nanoshock slow increased to 45% at all levels from 30%.
    • Tier 1 combo cast effects from Energy Capacitors packaged with the abilities themselves with combo effect progression based on level.
    • Energy Capacitor combo bonuses changed to reduced cooldowns for both Nanoshock and Nanothrust.
  12. TheWolf
    • Donator

    TheWolf Surgeon of Death

    yea looks better now. now i only need lvl 5 to cure all ailments and i can actually use weave to help against parainfestations/slithers at deme.
    only small cocnern i have for nanoshield: 60 sec cd. juding from my dps experience in some eosfight that gives me the problem that the 2nd shriek happens while im in the 25 sec phase after the shield tiems out but the skill is still on cd. but then again that can still be changed after its implemented and too many complain that its too long.

    concerning the energydrain that rockz mentioned: will beam use (like it used to) 1 energy per sec ergo heal on lvl 3 8hp for 1 energy or will it be 8hp per sec for 3 energy (similar to the current one)?
  13. Kith
    • Development Team
    • Designer

    Kith NOTD Staff: Anti-Fun Wizard Skeleton

    The Heal ability will consume 1 energy per second at all levels.
  14. Arturia

    Arturia Well-Known Member

    Yes, but the Forward Observer is also limited in his ability to do "the same deal," because he doesn't have complete control over his AoE Template drop patterns and can't mindlessly throw them around either, as his shell count is limited, not to mention that he doesn't show up as often as medic does.


    Yes, a durability buff that is a pain to use is very appropriate. The current Nanoshield is much more defensive than your T3. The only thing the proposed Nanoshield has going for it is that it makes dealing with Queen much easier.


    Prevent ailments how exactly? The Nanoshield with a 2.5 radius centered around Medic prevents ailments?

    No class can solve an entire facet of gameplay by being in the game; they all require the player to do something. A medic is useless if the player doesn't bother using any of the skills.

    Why don't we make Engineer have to invest skill points to use repair once more, despite the fact that it seems intuitive that he would come with it as a skill, similar to how it seems intuitive that the medic would have at least one "medical" skill at the start, similar to Chemical Expert having Anti-Venom.

    I can say that Recon can completely remove the facet of caution with low visibility zones, but that still requires the player to be active and use Flare.

    They're useless when their effects are so minimal. The duration is hardly significant on your "crowd control". If it hit hard for a few seconds, that would be a different story, but it hits weakly for a few seconds at best. Don't forget that one person's "useful" may be another person's "useless".

    Yes, the Nanomedic has more energy, but you're comparing 8 points of skill investment to 3.

    So why does Nanomedic have bonus experience then?

    Nanothrust is probably more dangerous because its going to promote bad habits with Monofilament.

    That is primarily because nothing in Marksman's arsenal was forced to synergize for the sake of synergy in order to be useful.

    If you're going to say Nanothrust synergzies with Volatile Injection by virtue of it being a high damage skill, I'd say that Barret and Nanostrength would have done just as much.

    Yes, and people's views are subjective. If you want to think about it, nothing is objectively "useless". Worse, adequate or sufficient are also pretty subjective terms.

    Unfortunately, the castable buff that you say is an enormous boon (I'm assuming you're referring to Nanostrength) is there because the other castable buff that was an enormous boon is going to be changed heavily. We'll conveniently forget that Nanoshield contributes far more to Medic's supporting role than Nanostrength will. The "better" hitpoint management just sounds like a fancy way to say that you've made all Life-heals give an extra +1 per tick.

    Unfortunately, you've taken away from managing player hit points when shields are taken into consideration, and the fact that both viable burst-heal skills are replaced with the player having to use Fibrins while hugging the target.

    Hasn't really changed all that much is an understatement when you turn Nanosear into a Stationary AoE rather than keep it as an AoE Cast Application.

    Because a 2.5 radius AoE is equivalent to junk. You'll tell your team to do a group hug just to have that buff and slow your entire team down in the process? Queen is the only time (that I can think of) where this skill outshines the old Nanoshield.

    You're acting like Nano Medic isn't losing a move speed buff and long-lasting Slow DPS.

    I'll just wait until people complain about having to spend 1 skillpoint to get Antivenom and 5 to get Cauterize/Mend on Nano Medic provided people can muster any motivation to play Nano Medic after its novelty wears off. That is just how I see it playing out, because there is a point where people would rather complain than improve themselves in a game.

    I'm just going to spoiler my response to this and give warning that it may be offensive.

    Show Spoiler
    I don't really see how anything you would be doing would involve bug fixing unless you're just saying "Fix those bugs in specific" because to my knowledge you're there for ideas, not the programming/Editor work. A little bugfixing would also be a bit of an understatement regardless, as it seemed to be a major qualm people had with the game. It isn't like other game's haven't tried to deal with bugs by ignoring them and instead just adding straight content in the hopes that it would make players forget about annoying bugs. Of course, its possible that stability has been achieved and I'm running off of old information, but I'm inclined to believe that people got tired of mentioning it simply because I don't see masses of cheering occurring.


    At least you made the "Synergy" a bit more diverse and turned that impotent slow into something a bit more viable.

    Yet efficiency != viability. Your "efficiency" is in energy cost. Anti Venom losing its Cooldown doesn't outweigh it losing the 10hp heal and the fact that you upped its energy cost. But hey, every Field Aid Medic is going to be getting at least one point in Healing Hands regardless, so I guess you could also say that it became more "efficient". Give the Medic a burst heal that isn't "Use Fibrin" because as far as I'm concerned, Fibrin Bandages are typically self-applied while Medkits are applied to others, but for one reason or another that was reversed here.
  15. Kith
    • Development Team
    • Designer

    Kith NOTD Staff: Anti-Fun Wizard Skeleton

    While this is true, I still don't really see the issue. Holdouts happen in NOTD, and they happen often. Considering it's a Tier 3 ability and the entire class is about crowd control and keeping a wad of enemies/a boss in one place requires teamwork of some variety, I'm really not seeing the problem.

    Nanoshield has a casting range of 10. That "2.5 radius" is an AoE template. She doesn't have to be anywhere near the tank to get that cast.

    Obviously. My point was that the Medic was able to handle Venom, Cripple, Open Wound, and Blind right off the bat, and no other class has that much default starting power, especially taking into consideration her other innate abilities.

    The Engineer has Repair because he uses it for both trees. The Chemical Expert has Antivenom because he uses it for both trees. The Medic has Antivenom and Surgical Laser because players bitched loudly enough about "being forced" to go 1 SL Nano and I made the mistake of listening instead of telling them to deal with it because I was inexperienced. So now that I've got my head in the game, I can tell you without a doubt that ailment mitigation has absolutely nothing to do with crowd control.

    Moving SL's functions and AV into FA does not significantly impact Nano's intended purpose, and the Medic still has multiple other innates at her disposal such as increased experience share and the starting Bandages. While Bandages have nothing to do with Crowd Control either, they are a limited resource and they're not nearly as versatile as Surgical Laser so I have much less of a problem with their presence.

    You're right, he can. However, that's because no matter what he's doing, he's playing team support. He's either a spotter or a scout. The Medic, on the other hand, chooses between being the healer and a crowd control caster, and like I said before: Ailment mitigation has nothing to do with crowd control.

    Nevermind that I actually increased the total possible damage and disable if you used the two skills together - even moreso with the update to the first post. As an aside, I'm slightly taken aback at how intently you're focusing on the numbers portion of things when you've seen me adjust numbers based on feedback multiple times before.

    You're right, I am. These early tier skills will aid the Nanomedic in maximizing her damage later with Nanosear, whereas Monofilament is something of a utility one-off. It seems to me that you are bound and determined to avoid looking at the tree in its entirety.

    Because it's the Medic and I don't feel like screwing with validators on bonus experience because I don't want to piss off our Hybrid players. That said, as a result of the bonus experience, I intentionally made the Tier 1 not that great early but made it stronger as the game went on and the player unlocked more abilities to use in tandem.

    You're grasping at straws for something to be mad about, I see.

    I suppose that Master Marksman buffing OSOK through Concentration stacks isn't synergy to you?

    You're right, a weapon with a high base damage would assist in proccing unit death and therefore VI. My point still stands.

    We're also conveniently forgetting that Nanoshield is wildly overpowered. None of the other Medics from any of the other Survival style games that I've played have ever had anything like it. The Medic's job in the NOTD series (and Hero-centric zombie survival family, such as Undead Assault or SWAT or ect.) has always been to buff and to fix, but never outright mitigate damage. I'm not saying there's anything particularly wrong with breaking that trend - I'm just saying that the way that it was done here was way too strong. It's almost more efficient to just spam Nanoshield on your tank than to heal them, and I think that's crap.

    As for the life-heals, yes, what I did was make them heal better. I've also reduced the healbeam's energy cost to 1 at all levels rather than it increase per level, making it easier to heal injured teammates. Healing Hands makes Bandages into a huge burst heal, which can completely heal some classes in a single shot at Level 2. The Medic has to "hug" them, but I don't actually see an issue with that.

    ... the mechanics of Nanosear haven't changed for the rework, though. The only thing that I changed for Nanosear was its damage, which I lowered by 5 per tick. That's it. The skill description is borderline identical to the one in-game. This is why I've been pushing you to provide some sort of explanation to your grievances, because this seems like a simple misunderstanding.

    Again, it's got a casting range of 10. You can toss it p.far.

    I'm acting like it's losing a movespeed buff that it doesn't need and the "long-lasting Slow DPS" hasn't gone anywhere.

    Considering that I've made it a significant pain in the ass to run a "Nano with heals" build unless you're specifically building Hybrid, I really doubt that's going to happen. People are going to go full tilt one way or another. The problem with 1 SL Nano was that the single point in SL was too accessible and too good of an opportunity to give up. With the Medic's bonus experience and Nano's relative killing power, who was going to give up the opportunity to have additional insurance against nearly every ailment in the game? Now that the ailment cures are spread out, people are going to choose to go full FA or full Nano, because trying to do Nano with Heals will leave them without a Tier 3.

    I meant in context of the map being updated and polished, not in reference to my job specifically. Borderlands 2, for instance, is a relatively well done game with only a handful of bugs. However, it's got some glaring design issues. When people are done being mad about the bugs, they start getting mad about the game itself, and it's my job to prevent people from getting mad about the game as much as possible.


    Actually, Antivenom losing its hitpoint heal is a mistake that I made. It was originally in my design notes that it was not only to retain the heal, but have it improve with First Aid's level - 5 HP at level 1, 10 HP at level 2, and 15 HP at level 3. I'll amend the first post to reflect that.

    That said, I see nothing wrong with the Medic's burst healing being tied to Bandages. Burst healing is incredibly powerful because you can bring someone back from the brink of death in an instant. Making it item-based means that it can be appropriately powerful for that utility but limited in its scope and therefore not extensively abusable.
  16. vexxenon

    vexxenon Well-Known Member

    At this late game for NOTD, I really think "balancing" revolves around tweaking 1-2 skills, changing mechanics of 1 skill, as oppose to REWORK entire tree for FA medic and totally change the gameplay. Of course, you'll met with far greater resistance. If you think med was too OP due to Bubble, you can simple change the game mechanics of Bubble, instead of full shield charge, give it set amount. Instead of instant full, give Bubble something like shield over time equivalent of weave. You can change the cast cost, the cooldown all sorts of things to tweak one skill that you think is OP, as oppose to reroll the medic.

    And even if this medic rework did go through, you STILL have not addressed the balancing of NEW medic vs all the other classes and campaigns.
  17. Kith
    • Development Team
    • Designer

    Kith NOTD Staff: Anti-Fun Wizard Skeleton

    That's not your call to make. That said, if I can avoid changing things, I do. Example: the Technician update. However, when there are multiple flaws with a character, I will not hesitate to redo most of it to address those flaws and get the character to the originally intended purpose.


    Actually, I have. Why do you think it took so long?
  18. Drunk

    Drunk Well-Known Member

    Interesting rework, though I don't really see any mention of a madness cure. Has it also been removed along with blind cure?
  19. DLINK

    DLINK Well-Known Member

    Kith, Arturia means that the current nanosear is casted on something and it stays on them for 60s, no matter where they move (unless this is ALSO a bug, in which case I dunno, it's been here for a LONG time). The new nanosear, if i read correctly, is just going to stay in one area (like chem's contaminate), so the viability of using it while kiting is pretty much nil.
  20. Ability
    • Development Team
    • NOTD Creator

    Ability NOTD Creator

    If that's a direct pull out of the ability text for Nanosear, it needs to be updated by us. Nanosear's current mechanic is intended.

    We don't have to agree with Kith but he's doing a good job at justifying his proposals and sharing his rationale. The inputs Arturia shared are helpful too. Kith is updating the rework proposal as new feedback comes in. Please continue sharing more thoughts.

    Additional Inputs:
    - With the move of Nano-Strength to Field Aid, Nano Medic tree may be less unique. This is because it turns it to a more common disable/dps tree that many DPS classes have (e.g. Marksman/Rifleman). What made Nano medic unique in the past was the additional team buff (Nano-Strength). And yes, the great flexibility of SL as a base talent - which no other DPS class has. I can see it being OP, but I would rather balance the tree down if needed (less energy efficiency/CD & range adjustment) rather than removing its relatively unique play. Current proposed Nano Medic tree may be a bit too close to Chem Expert too. Any ways to keep Nano Medic more unique?
    - New players may not be good at using a channeling heal (First Aid). Surgical Laser is argubly an easier and more direct mechanic. Channeling spells normally need more positioning/timing finesse and that's good for the learning curve but not optimal for a base Medic ability (e.g. new players channel healing someone in Tartarus and getting hit by other mobs. Something basic that vets avoid, but newbies may have a bit more trouble). Do you think that there's an alternative to a channeled heal? One possibility is to allow the Medic to continue moving as it's cast (just that it can't attack/use other spells without breaking it). Otherwise, would rather have an SL (instant mechanic).

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