Guardian of the Beta... does it need a rework?

Discussion in 'NOTD Discussion' started by RoboMonkey, Jun 6, 2013.

  1. vexxenon

    vexxenon Well-Known Member

    Lets say I don't care about xp, or credits, lets have 8 techs somehow all managed to make it to wave 40, that means 8 turrets (or less if you want to go MOTM), with up to 8 sparks, maybe few nets, sure I don't need to camp, I can certainly spark indefinitely without pause.

    I can also have 8 engs, with zillion argons, ok I can kite if I want.

    I can have 8 po that does indefinite push, and slow mo game.

    I can think of lots of scenarios where I don't have to camp, but does that make surv nm fun to play? maybe for the 1st few times, but then it gets boring. Is NOTD developer now endorsing that types of build? Who knows.
  2. Arturia

    Arturia Well-Known Member

    I should be the one bashing my head against the wall. You seemed to have failed to comprehend the the fact that the entire purpose of that was to tell you that your statement was stupid and incorrect in regards to being Killed in 1 hit.

    Also, if you're tanking.... Aren't you tanking because you're essentially... camping? Being able to withstand one attack wave is sufficient if you can react within that period of time to disable the boss temporarily to get the fuck away from him.

    Well, not my fault your tank has to deal with the team not moving enough, or giving him some relief in the form of a disable to help him get away.

    You gotta realize that not all people think about kiting the same way. Maybe you're looking at different "bigger picture" than I am, but people have their own preferences in evaluating art and scenery.

    In this instance, Kiting != Sitting outside with the tank taunting the boss / running in circles around him. It means moving around the entire map, getting away from the thing that wants to kill you oh so bad. Your tank should throw a stun at GotB instead of tanking him.

    This argument is just as bad as someone saying that UA3's Firebat can't tank one of those bullshit "bosses" that may as well 1-hit players, so it is impossible to kite them.

    What about having your technician spam exhaust, and if a suitable stun / root is ready, use it on GotB while your nano-medic uses nano-sear? Watching him die of OW and Venom may take some time, but you can probably toss a few L3 grenades behind yourself if you have the time. Your only problem is discerning GotB's approach, but a recon should be able to help you fix that problem. And then you have that nice 8 seconds of being able to throw some shit onto him in preparation for him coming for you provided it is in the form of long-term DoT's.

    So how does removing GotB Charge make it so that you must kite him instead of camp him? I'm still failing to understand that.

    As far as I'm concerned, you sound unhappy about the prospect of Survival NM getting more difficult to win, but in general, I've yet to move away from my opinion that Wins lack any meaning in NOTD NA. At least in SC2 NOTD SO, I know damnably well that I've only won 10% of my games in normal. So out of 1000+ games, around 100 ~ 105 total won, and out of those wins, 2 of them are nightmare, and that is on the high end of the spectrum (though it could be argued that the more newer players that played with the older players have a higher win ratio, but the cause of that should be fairly obvious). Each grueling 2 hour long win had the feeling of "Hell yeah, a fucking evac" instead of that feeling of "oh hey just another win and medal tick mark."

    It almost feels like you expect the game to hand you a win, and personally, I am not fond of the idea that "I'm this experienced so I deserve a victory".

    Maybe if Medals hadn't turned out the way they did, it might have been plausible for nightmare mode to be a more respectable difficulty, but because of the fact that medals, especially MoH, are all grinding, that became nothing but a pipe-dream. Because, they actually had to be something achievable (Lets ignore the fact that a 3-man group managed to reach Level 3 MoH by non-stop grinding, sometime before NOTD left its "Beta" period IIRC).

    So wait... GotB becoming something other than a massive chargelot is bad? Oh god, does this mean that the Zerg Queen becoming Eos the Zombie Queen was a grave mistake that was committed in the past? Nothing wrong with a vanilla Queen with high HP turning into a monstrous boss, but how dare GotB change from a Powerful Chargelot to something that actually has a few skills and is different than a charging slasher with more damage and health. And lets not forget Ivax. How dare he turn from a giant marauder into the boss he is today. What heretical changes that must never have occurred!

    Yeah, things get changed. Typically, this reason is because the boss in question is woefully inadequate, and Alpha in its incomplete state was an assured 45 xp in 45 minutes (after we figured out how to deal with that immortal wave), better than the 60 ~ 70 XP in 1 hr 15 minutes that was Easy Company.

    In the case of Guardian of the Beta, this would be because of how bland his boss fight is. I bet replacing him with a Titan that has massively increased health and move speed, and ignores armor would hardly change anything.
    Whenever spark gets it rework, that becomes much less viable. Kinda like what happened when Demolition's Sap finally became fixed to work as intended instead of being a level 0 7 second stun.

    Somehow, it doesn't sound like you're kiting, because all you're doing is staying in the same general spot spamming taunt-stuns, feeding food, or just skill spamming in order to lock him down in place.

    That may as well be camping, at least to me. Then again, the only kiting I ever think of is a generic circle-kite where you literally walk / run in a circle until its all dead / time is up. Maybe I should go back to SC1 and play Vulture Nightmare, but that's just going to be me using patrol to attack enemies that are following me, and I suck at that.
    Maybe cheese really does taste good, but I wouldn't be able to tell because I have yet to expand my palate in tasting cheese.

    P.S. Maybe I should stop posting when it gets late at night, because I can't help but feel I just made a wall of text, and I'm too drowsy to be able to bother fixing it if I did.
  3. vexxenon

    vexxenon Well-Known Member

    I should just take you entire post and toss in the trash and tell you to go play, as I assume you don't play on NA, as I never seen you on. I won't go into whos epeen is bigger by comparing wins, since it's ultimately just another win in the count.

    vexxenon said:
    if any, that makes me want more argons, and more camping, I sure as hell not going to kite, as he already 1 hit KO, now maybe 1/2 hit KO ? lol​
    Also, if you're tanking.... Aren't you tanking because you're essentially... camping? Being able to withstand one attack wave is sufficient if you can react within that period of time to disable the boss temporarily to get the fuck away from him.

    Go read, why am I tanking? argons are tanking.

    If you want to argue the technical details on how to kite GOTB, and by your definition, kiting is running around the map. The only person I've witness doing it successfully with multiple of different chars in surv nm is MSlutier, and you are not him. There maybe others that can do the same thing, so by this mean, does it mean we're essentially limiting the surv nm to those players that can kite GOTB successfully?

    I assume you've tried to kite GOTB both in reg surv and nm surv, and you should know the HUGE difference between the two. If GOTB doesn't charge, at least I have a chance to kite in NM if I wanted to, that means e.g. team wipes during persus, demio, machine wave, marine wave, etc whatever. Now it doesn't mean a FULL team will be willing to KITE GOTB given that the entire team lives up to wave 40, it is much safer to camp and get MOH. However, giving your current stance on "promote not camping" tell me, you have a 1 hit unit that charges your and rapes your entire team, who in their right mind would want to kite unless you have to?​
    So how does removing GotB Charge make it so that you must kite him instead of camp him? I'm still failing to understand that.

    Now if entire team survs up to wave 40, and somehow GOTB lets say gain cliff walk and forces me to kite, the entire team have a chance to kite without at least half of team wipe.

    "So wait... GotB becoming something other than a massive chargelot is bad? Oh god, does this mean that the Zerg Queen becoming Eos the Zombie Queen was a grave mistake that was committed in the past? Nothing wrong with a vanilla Queen with high HP turning into a monstrous boss, but how dare GotB change from a Powerful Chargelot to something that actually has a few skills and is different than a charging slasher with more damage and health. And lets not forget Ivax. How dare he turn from a giant marauder into the boss he is today. What heretical changes that must never have occurred!"

    Does EOS, 1 hit KO u? does she charge? does she perm cloak? Does Ivax 1 hot KO u? does he charge? does he perm cloak? Do either of them have super move speed? Can you kite them if needed?

    Whenever spark gets it rework, that becomes much less viable. Kinda like what happened when Demolition's Sap finally became fixed to work as intended instead of being a level 0 7 second stun."

    Don't quote something that has not been release, anything base on "what might be released" in the future is dismissible, it may or may not even happen, go evaluate the game as it is as of TODAY.

    So which server do you play on? NA, SEA, EU? Probably not NA right?
  4. supernova

    supernova New Member

    the main problem with gotb and the reason why people resort to finding ways to camp it is gotb is basically a 1 shot ko boss. if gotb is based off the chargelot from normal gameplay, its charge is a GUARANTEED hit once it has a target locked on. and since its attack has 2 shots, 2 x 200 is basically a 1 shot ko for most classes except a tech with full strength stat points. one slip up, one miss timed sprint, a few seconds too long on creep and you're fucked. there's basically no room for error if you kite gotb and that's IF you can even get to start kiting him. sometimes he'd appear out of nowhere (with no detection) and then whack, you're dead.

    have any of you actually tried to kite nm gotb? if you have, you can't be serious in saying that you'd like to do that kind of kiting EVERY single surv nm game. the last time i saw gotb kited like that, i lost count of how many laps of the map the players had to do and it was AT LEAST 30 minutes of kiting.

    if your main problem with gotb is because people are camping him, you only need to look at other bosses to get an idea of how to solve this. look at perses, ivax for example. they both have skills that require the player to move from static positions without the boss being 1 shot ko. if you want to get people to move from static positions, you have to remove the 1 shot ko. at least make it somewhat possible to kill instead of an hour long kite fest or until your hand falls off your wrist. just because it's 'the guardian of the beta' doesn't mean it has to be OP with 1 shot ko. gotb is in surv storyline which i find is the most easist to get to the last boss anyway. from easiest to hardest in terms of reaching the final boss, in my opinon it's surv > ec > ac > sec.

    if you're still holding onto the idea of gotb being the boss of all bosses, you don't need to give it 1 shot ko to do that. give it multiple elements that the players have to deal with while also making the route to get to the final boss somewhat difficult as well.
  5. Arturia

    Arturia Well-Known Member

    Just learn how to use the [_quote]QUOTE GOES HERE[/quote] functionality that you're given when posting, so that I don't view your post as something that belongs in the trash can as well, vexxenon. Typically this helps other people read what you're saying better. Would you want to read my post without the clear separation of quotes? Because if I dumped that onto someone, I would be surprised if they would read it.

    Looks like I misplaced that text block. It was supposed to be addressing:
    So yeah, my bad; didn't bother to check if everything was in order when I posted that.

    But I laughed when you said "Go read". Maybe I should just say that I was "skimming" your post and didn't care much.

    So we're limiting the chances of victory in a higher difficulty game mode to those who know how to control their character, and that is a bad thing? If MSlutier can do it, and if we use him as a standard for a very good player adapted for nightmare, then people need to rise up to that standard if they intend to beat survival nightmare.

    So far, it feels like you're nagging over something instead of figuring out how to kite him. If only we adopted this attitude with Seth (maybe Hades as well) in his implementation, the old forum(s) would have been flooded with qq over Seth and Seth would almost never be defeated.

    You told me someone can do it, so then it isn't something that can be claimed to be impossible. The fact that this person was successful multiple times means that it can't be counted off as an extreme string of luck.

    How will cliff-walk force you to kite GotB? Don't you have your agron meat-walls to tank him and thus, camp him anyways?

    What is the problem with nightmare mode being difficult anyways? Is there some sort of problem with survival nightmare mode being... a nightmare to survive?

    So you're telling me that you don't know that bosses changed from something that can be destroyed with minimal effort to something that actually requires effort?

    Because Queen's damage got changed from something around 9 to 90, and I'd say that is a pretty big boost.

    Eos can 1-hit KO some characters, just as GotB can 1-hit KO some characters. If she uses a certain ability, she can 1-hit a few more characters. Considering her status as a ranged attacker, that's pretty scary.

    Eos may not have charge, but she has a crack-boost sprint and can't be affected by move speed debuffs. She also has a handy dandy large AoE, long period stun.

    Eos doesn't permacloak because she has other defining features, and even if she did permacloak, what service would it do for her, apart from making the chase her down part extremely tedious and time consuming.

    I've hardly seen any team's kite Eos. Sure some can, but most prefer camping, but that doesn't really make for a convincing argument for or against anything. Usually kiting is a desperate resort for the most part; the most common reason being a lack of a suitable tank. Tends to be rather messy in my experience.

    Ivax being a ranged unit, would be more unfair than you say GotB is if Ivax had 1-hitting capabilities. His Long Range Missiles are fatal enough to outright kill some characters though, so he can also 1-Hit KO some characters just as Eos and GotB can.

    Ivax does have a temporary cloak, which hardly makes a difference between a permanent cloak. Perma-cloak is only useful if enemies lack any means of detection and even then makes a blur as the unit moves. For the most part, its useful for the first-strike type of things, and falls off after that. Just LD or VI him and you'll know where he is.

    Ivax can be kited.

    I guess the entire point of that went over your head / was missed, or my intent was misunderstood. It was essentially saying there were plenty of very easy bosses that got changed into something that actually resembles a boss, and should be called a boss. In the case of GotB, he lacks any feeling of being a boss, aside from the fact that he has a huge boss-bar to indicated his health, he has a unique model, he only appears once, he must be defeated to win, and he has jacked up stats. He doesn't even have any abilities. He may as well be a cloaked seeker x1000.

    I'm more curious as to what Peerawatz has in mind for GotB.

    So, you're saying just because it hasn't happened yet, it can be completely ignored, despite the fact that it will occur? Yes, it is debatable when it will occur, but it is a planned change.

    That may as well be the same as saying "we built a house on a location that is very likely to have a landslide in the future without any precautions taken for landslides and we shouldn't worry because the landslide will occur in the future, not now". Or saying "We know WMD's will come into play later in the future, but because its the future and not now, we can ignore WMD's". You may as well act like a spendthrift with a credit card and not worry about maxing it out, because it may max out in the future, but shouldn't be worried about because that would happen in the future. I doubt anyone would follow such problematic and dangerous thinking, because it is better to be proactive about things rather than to be entirely reactive.

    Its all fine and well that you want to act when it happens, but having no preparations for when it happens is what is typically known as "winging it"; coincidentally this didn't work for SHIVA or Gravity Gun.

    All that really needs to be done is to give Heroic units a massive damage bonus vs "Hover", and classify Spark as "Hover". Set Spark's HP to 9000, armor to 20 and HP Regen to 2000, and give the bosses " 10000 vs Hover". I can't think of any probable swarm of enemy units dealing over 2k DPS, so it will still accomplish what it is supposed to accomplish.

    Show Spoiler

    A simple change that even I could do in the Data Editor. All it requires is going to each boss's weapon damage effect and going to the damage modifier section, and adding a 10000 to "hover". Then going to the Spark unit and modifying its base stat values, and checking one additional check box.

    If the word "Hover" is so awkward, going to the text editor section in the data editor would allow the developer to change that as well.

    The only point of concern is how its taunt & frenzy works. If it is applied and maintained via periodic effects, then there shouldn't be any problem with a boss becoming bullshit destroyer from Mad Spark's taunt & frenzy effect.

    It is entertaining to see how far we deviated from discussing Guardian's Focus. It's become a back and forth between you and me over "Can & Should Guardian of the Beta be kited?" And its only going to get worse.

    For the most part, until someone brings something new into this argument, it is just going to become back and forth with nothing accomplished, except walls upon walls of text.

    So I'll chill on it for a while; hopefully Perrawatz's idea gets posted and is something that makes GotB a more suiting final boss. Or someone inputs somethings into the discussion to break up the back and forth between me and vexxenon. So vexxenon, if you make a reply, I'll read it, but I'm not gong to bother replying to it until someone else bothers to post.
  6. Ability
    • Development Team
    • NOTD Creator

    Ability NOTD Creator

    1. GOTB Damage - am fine with it doing more damage to non-heroic (e.g. 2x) to make mob tanking less optimal.
    2. GOTB Charge - am fine with it not having Charge. It doesn't change anyone's decision to camp, but it helps make kiting more accessible as an option if people want to do it.
  7. EdowardoLMP

    EdowardoLMP Well-Known Member

    I have a few suggestion skills for GotB if charge and 1 hit-KO(2 hits to be precise) is really unnecessary. All yellow italic figures can be changed and vary between nightmare and non-nightmare.

    1. Spawn BotG (Bodyguards of the Guardian):

    BotG: (Mini GotB)
    HP vary with normal (not wave 35's) Agron's HP or slightly higher.
    Armor type same as GotB (except Heroic)
    0 damage (just to make a hit contact to a marine)
    2.0 - 2.5 MS
    • Spawns an amount of bodyguards same as the number of alive marines, each will kept aggro on one marines (ignores all taunts & blind) and cannot be blocked.
    • The bodyguard vanishes upon landing a hit and the marine will be inflicted with a random ailment (include Madness; might add in Blind, Stun or Silence for 5-10 sec) and 50-100 spell damage.
    • Auto spawns every 20-40 sec, the rest will not die if not shot to death. Will only start spawning when in range with any marines.
    Reason: GotB is not much of an obstacle after you killed all Nydus Worm on wave 39. Although this still "slightly" encourage camping but they also must dealt with these slow paced BotG instead of just focusing on GotB.

    2. Psionic Disruption (Silence):
    • Emits a 7-10 radius psionic pulse temporarily disrupts the marine's ability, all affected marines are unable to use any of their abilities.
    • Last for 5-10 sec.
    • GotB will use once per 1/5 HP lost. E.g: 100%/80%/40%/20% HP.
    • A warning "GotB is about to release a psionic pulse..." will be shown like how Eos Shriek does.
    • Skill can be disrupted by stuns. (unless future GotB is stunproof)
    Reason: All marines will just dump all their skills on GotB no matter what, disabling skills for a period of time will definitely hurt camping capabilities (still not impossible to camp).

    3. Psionic Blink (basically Teleport..):
    • GotB will teleport to a random location near any marines.
    • GotB will stay idle and invulnerable for 3-5 sec after each teleporation.
    • 20-35 sec cooldown.
    • Skill can be disrupted by stuns.
    • Psi-blink will only be used upon GotB reaching less than 25% remaining HP.
    Reason: "Yea, kill this muthaf*****r from up here !!" After blink next to marines, GotB troll-faced, marines:"RUN B*TCH RUN !!!" (Anti camp skill ;))

    4. To the shadow I come:
    • After GotB fully charged his energy, he will transformed into a near transparent DT model.
    • All GotB attack will be reduced to solid 2 damage, fully ignores any armor. (1 attack from DT)
    • GotB MS will increase by 25%. (max 3.75)
    • GotB attack speed will increase by 300%. (min 0.4)
    • Last for 30-60 sec.
    • Psi-Disruption and Psi-blink will be deactivate in this form.
    • A debuff of -25% MS and -300% attack speed for 5-10 sec after transformation, energy starts from 0 and turned back into original form.
    • GotB attack locked for 2 sec right after transformation.
    Reason: For this skill I suggest adding in an energy bar of 25-50 with starting 0 energy and 0.1-0.2 something energy regen. Simply say GotB got frenzy mode turned on, charge and slash any marine he could find. This is where tanks should be in the front line. A maximum of 5 DPS should be able to run away without critical health damage if you are backed by a lot of kits and a FA medic, but also makes you on the same terrain with GotB after transformation.
  8. vexxenon

    vexxenon Well-Known Member

    Arturia, you strike me as someone who do not currently play NOTD, and yet still want to have some influence of the game, without actually playing the game. If any of these are true, then why are we still having this conversation?

    You've misread many of my points, even after I repeatedly point them out to you.

    As for quote, you know what, I'm just not going to quote yours, if that makes you happy, I'll happily quote others. This is some non-technical bullshit that has nothing to do with our discussion, and you continue to hammer that to no end.

    "You told me someone can do it" yes, and they failed, after entire team died, I can kite gotb in surv nm too, but does that mean I'm actually doing dps? probably minimal.

    "How will cliff-walk force you to kite GotB? Don't you have your agron meat-walls to tank him and thus, camp him anyways?" The quote you posted, did I say argon? you are implying that I have argon. Certainly if I have argons, maybe I have enough to prevent him from cliff walk, that will be 2 separate issues. I'm talking about if I have NOTHING, no spark, no net no anything, if you added cliffwalk, then I have to kite, otherwise, with no slow, no snare, no meatshield, I can't tank him.

    The next section is too much to quote, but it is about other bosses e.g. Eos, and IVAX.

    I know exactly where Eos is at or which way she'll come from if I have my sscon, and I know for a fact that if I don't get in range of her attack, I wont be 1 kit KO, is this same as GOTB? Don't answer that.
    "Eos may not have charge, but she has a crack-boost sprint and can't be affected by move speed debuffs" I guess srofl stun don't count almost all the others? maybe they aren't debuff I guess. Oh btw, even with her "crack-boost" sprint, most class can still effectively run away from her, and she isn't running towards you either.

    "Ivax can be kited." grats, you just answered my point, why do you even argue about IVAX? oh btw, his long range is avoided by staying close, however I can't do that with GOTB in surv nm can I?

    Kith, if you feel that what I've posted have no basis, and feel that it is a personal attack, please feel free to delete this post. I just want to make a point before I continue to go on a loop, specifically pointing out things that anyone plays the game would understand, however not to Arturia.
    • Community Leader


  10. Arturia

    Arturia Well-Known Member

    Stuff for vexxenon:
    Show Spoiler
    vexxenon, you strike me as someone who can't read or has issues with selective reading, yet still wants to argue.

    You've also misread my points, even after me reducing it into the simplest I can make it.

    I was trying to inform you of how to use the quote function, because your entire post is always a damn mess to read. Nothing gets separated. I can't tell apart what are your words, from what are my words without referring back to my original post a hell of a lot, and its honestly a pain in the ass to decipher what you're saying. If you don't know what structure is, I'm not going to bother trying to explain it to you, but typically, its better when you make it easier for those who are reading what are posting to understand what you are saying.

    Contradiction much?

    Why did you say:
    Stop changing what you say every damn post, or get a dictionary and learn what the words you use mean.
    Saying he did it successfully implies he succeeded, and thus, won. If you mean to say he managed to kite the boss, but ultimately lost, then that just makes it worse, because by that definition, anyone can "successfully" kite the boss, be it 1 second or 5 minutes, and still lose. So anyone who makes an effort to move away from the boss can be counted as having successfully kited the boss going by what you said, regardless of whether or not they managed to kill GotB or not.

    So we go from conveniently having agron meat-shields, to not having them. You brought up agrons before. Why would I assume you don't have them now? Especially considering the fact that your argument was "I have agrons to tank for me, so I don't need to worry about kiting."

    Things like:
    make it seem that you always have your Meat-shields. Why would that be time be any different? If you lacked the meatshields, how will cliff-walk force him to enroach upon your position, when cliff-walk wouldn't be necessary to walk up your path? Of course, I'm conveniently ignoring the fact that Towers and Turrets screwing with the AI if they are used as a pathing blocker.

    In any case, while its a nice hypothetical situation, it doesn't change the fact that there are cases where it does not apply. Specifically, cases where you have a Field Engineer with a small zoo to be your meat-shield, which you seemed to have been intent on using as your primary tactic.

    Then don't bother posting it. You may as well say "This is my argument, but don't respond to it pls because it falls flat on its head".

    Yeah, because Survival Rifleman's stun is a STUN not a MOVE SPEED DEBUFF.

    Sure you can "technically" say a stun is a "100% move speed debuff", but we have a special category for slows that disable a unit's movement speed, abilities, and attacks. Usually, we call that a stun, not a slow.

    Yeah, and all bosses can be kited the exact same way, am I right?

    You seemed to have missed the entire point behind that section, which was stated directly after "Ivax can be kited."

    So congratulations, even though I made it obvious what the entire point of bringing those up where, you completely failed to comprehend or understand those. I'm assuming that you don't bother to address the other points because you've conceded them. So do me a favor, vexxenon: stop projecting and learn to read everything instead of selectively filtering out things you do not want to read. It became pretty obvious that you tend to turn a blind eye to the things that contradict what you say, or try to write it off as me being overly technical about things.

    That is a mutually shared opinion between you and me.

    In essence, you're saying its impossible to understand without playing the game. But should one play the game and establish their own opinion, it is evidently the wrong opinion if it does not agree with your opinion, according to you, vexxenon. If the person's opinion doesn't change before and after playing the game to something similar to your opinion, you'll start complaining, most likely about the SR being low or what have you. God forbid I play a game, and all it serves to do is to reinforce my opinion of the game.

    You seem hellbent on making "You don't play the game, you don't understand anything," your primary argument which reminds me of an rebelling teenager's argument "You're not a teenager, you can't understand all the pain and suffering I know of!" Unfortunately, people are who they are because of their past experiences.

    However, the existence of the profession of psychiatrists would essentially say that type of argument is unfounded. After all, Psychiatrists aren't teenagers, yet they can help a teenager via therapy. That, or teenagers fix themselves because it just feels like the psychiatrist is there to listen to them rant while taking money of out of their pocket, and the teenager can help himself more than the psychiatrist can, and resolves to do so.

    Maybe it is a bad habit of mine to go into a game and be unsure of victory, knowing the difficult is at its highest and that my skill isn't at the highest. At the very least, I know I don't expect to win the game without putting forth a large amount of effort.

    Err, the entire point of the damage was to say there were other ways to make it harder to use meat-shields, but that they weren't necessarily interesting, nor fun. I would much rather see him able to "Mind Control" a non-heroic player unit with a little animation occurring to the unit before it becomes GotB's, than to see him just chew through mobs.

    Guardian of the Beta losing charge is fine by me. But you're really going to have to add more skills to his arsenal if he loses charge, because he would have 0 active abilities. At this point, he just becomes a giant zealot with high damage, but no dynamics.

    Guardian's Focus may alleviate that, but it isn't any answer to people camping him.

    I especially like EdwardoLMP's suggestions. The only part I dislike is "skills can be disrupted with stuns", which runs contradictory to what is being done in regards to Ivax and Cronus. I would much rather those types of things remain consistent through-out the game. Either all skills can be disrupted with stuns, or none of them can.

    Otherwise, we end up with pointless parts of the game. Somewhat similar to how Zeus and Leto had to be killed at the same time and only appeared in recruit mode; nowhere in the game did any enemies appear that had to be killed at the same time in order to stay dead. Also similar to how Recruit Mode Easy Company used to not have the Nydus Worm Mission; by not having it, when new players entered Normal Easy Company or higher, the Nydus Worm mission being entirely foreign usually wrecked them, and Normal Easy Company Pubs were often ditched.

    Maybe because its different, it works out, especially considering GotB isn't something that appears in recruit mode, but it seems like a rather major nerf to him.

    For Spawn BotG, its pretty nice, but I'd place their MS @ 2.0, and make it a 2 ~ 3 second effect at longest for their stun. 40 damage sounds relatively reasonable imo, considering its an assured, albeit random ailment. Venom, OW, Madness, Cripple, Blind, Infected, A stun, or Silence (an effect we don't yet have), gives a total of 8 different possible effects (not including Z-Effect).

    Psionic Disruption is a neat idea; gives the feel of a multi-staged fight. I agree with the durations provided.

    Psionic Blink / Teleport, imo, should occur @ every quarter of HP lost, instead of the last quarter, though it serves it purpose either way. Only concern is that Psi Disrupt & Psi Blink may occur in nearly the same time near the 75% and 25% hp point.

    The only one I dislike is "To the Shadows I come". That is frighteningly... strange? Its current DPS is something along the lines of 5 pure damage. The only real risk is that he is now the fastest unit in the game, so without stunning him, he is going to be hitting someone. But, considering how low his DPS is, even a technician's crawler drone, or Field Engineer's Probe / X-1 guardian can tank that for a considerable amount of time.

    The only real concern is when he reverts; he becomes that deadly killer right off the bat, in your face. Given he won't have sprint, it isn't nearly as fatal, but for him to transform instantly in your face is deadly nonetheless.
  11. EdowardoLMP

    EdowardoLMP Well-Known Member

    Feel free to include Z-Effect. Silence is new for NOTD but it's quite a strong spell thats serves like the EMP. BotG is sort of a chaser unit to give random ailments and some damage, some sort of secondary target that marines can ignore, but crash into one is harsh when you get the worst ailment.

    If stun is really the issue, then treat it like Eos Shriek, where it will be execute no matter what.

    • GotB will stay idle and invulnerable for 3-5 sec after each teleporation.
    GotB will not blink directly next to a marine but a few range away. Numbers % still can be changed, or a speed debuff can be applied for a few sec after each teleport.

    Even if 5 DPS sounds really low, your zombies are 2 - 1000 times your own HP, given the fact a straight 400 DPS in your face is pretty much doomed. It ignores armors and taunt debuffs. If zoos/drones/probes... etc are the setback, give a splash damage as dessert or a same treat of + 10 DPS on mechs and armored.

    • A debuff of -25% MS and +300% attack speed for 5-10 sec after transformation, energy starts from 0 and turned back into original form.
    • GotB attack locked for 2 sec right after transformation.
    The energy and regen stuff i will leave it to the experts to calculate, but I hope that GotB will transform at least once during wave 40, like Perses fire wave.
  12. Arturia

    Arturia Well-Known Member

    The only issue I have with Z-Effect is that simply put; there is no "cure" for it. It has a rather long duration, and is essentially a long-period root, which would spell certain death.

    Stun isn't so much an issue as consistency is. Ivax, Queen, and Cronus set a trend of "Stuns do not stop skills form occurring," and I would want that to either remain consistent. I'd rather either all skills can be stopped by stunning, or none of them can.

    I saw the part about teleport having nothing for a few seconds afterwards, but does that remain the case when when his HP is reduced to the threshold for Psionic Disruption to occur?

    I just want to know if there is a possibility that GotB would teleport, and the players would reduce his HP below the threshold that would then activate his Psionic Disruption (Silence).

    Somewhat similar to the complaint of Parasite Worms popping up after Nazara dies and EMP's the team; the intent is to avoid "forced helplessness"; players would have no way to deal with GotB if he teleports near them and silences them.

    I can't really think of any ways to make the 5 pure DPS deal with Zoos / drones / probes without making it a powerhouse of player trampling.

    Rather than GotB doing a temporary transformation, maybe have him enter a "Stage 2" similar to Hades?
  13. Kith
    • Development Team
    • Designer

    Kith NOTD Staff: Anti-Fun Wizard Skeleton

    Something I've mentioned multiple times, but bears repeating:

    IVAX is currently immune to stuns until the Forward Observer Rework is completed and IVAX can no longer be killed off-screen by Shocks and Napalm.

    Cronus is currently immune to stuns until we manage to prevent Lasers being able to be "turned off" by stunning him at the proper time.
  14. ArcanePariah
    • Development Team
    • Map Developer

    ArcanePariah Miracle Worker

    Since apparently I either wasn't clear or didnt mention it in the change log, Cronus is NOT immune to stuns, I did resolve both laser be interrupted and him moving during lasers. However because of both his creep mechanic and lasers no longer blocked by stuns, he may be seen as "immune", since stunning does little to him and can be detrimental at times.
  15. Kith
    • Development Team
    • Designer

    Kith NOTD Staff: Anti-Fun Wizard Skeleton

    Oh good. See? Cronus isn't immune to stuns. Now all we have to worry about is IVAX. No biggie.
  16. EdowardoLMP

    EdowardoLMP Well-Known Member

    I thought Z-effect last for roughly 15 sec, marine still able to attack but has no mobility, though it's a death sentences when got one. Choices of ailment still adjustable. I forgot 1 more ailment that is the Short Circuit (total of 9; 10 if including Z-effect)

    Ok, AP and Kithrixx explained.

    New Edit: Somehow dealing 10k DPS seems impossible given the 5%-7% HP (around 10k-20k HP) threshold between disrupt and blink. Besides, the team DPS 'should' be reduced significantly after disrupt since everyone was on the move to avoid getting silenced. If if this doesn't sound too good for you, I won't mind removes the current buffs of the marines included with the disruption. This should should removes any major DPS buffs like concentration, adr+ss... etc for that threshold between disrupt and blink (This has to work!). Passive buffs will be temporarily removed along the disruption duration.

    If that's the case, I wouldn't mind a 1/3 HP for each disruption, and starting the last 25% remaining HP GotB will have psi-blink on.
    Either 1/3 HP per disrupt (66%/33%), 25% HP remaining start blink
    or 1/4 HP per disrupt (75%/50%/25%), 20% HP remaining start blink

    Because Zoos tends to be wiped before the first transformation (given if GotB attacks can wipe zoo fast enough), where drones (60/120hp) and probe (150hp) (max 2 per summon from tech and engi with cd) can be re-summoned during the transformation but would not hold for much. The idea for this is even with camping, GotB with that 3.75 MS is pretty much unstoppable to come up (if tech have reworked). Having hit by a transformed GotB will not die instantly, that's the point I want people to 'feel' what is like when chased by a frenzied but low dps boss for a while. Camp for this should be a no-no because after transformation, GotB original damage returns and he will be on the same terrain as the team. Kiting this sort could be fun even if you cannot outrun it during his transformation.

    A "Stage 2" GotB is another good idea, I would propose to have a "Stage 3" as well. Where each staged GotB will come with more different skills but lesser skill for each form.
  17. EdAWACSdenyY

    EdAWACSdenyY Member

    I think Nazara and Cronus is the worst boss to fight ever especially Cronus
  18. EdowardoLMP

    EdowardoLMP Well-Known Member

    Having to say (plus bumping as well), community nowadays will just abandon ship from surv NM when either WM tech or FS engi are dead or not picked. If surv NM win/loses really are class-based (or based on how pathings are fucking screwed), then there is no point of playing it when these 2 class can simple troll the last "OP" boss to infinity and beyond.
  19. bunny

    bunny Member

    Most games are class based.
    Sure there are other ways to do things, but they are typically incredibly difficult.
    Here are some examples where there are other ways to do things, but they are difficult to the point where chances of success are nil. These are the ways things are done at the moment, because everything else is just ridiculous.
    1. Sec nm without having both smm AND buying stinger. This is by far the biggest class bias I have seen. Never seen it done without, probably never will.
    2. AC nm without FO or commando. No massive aoe = gg holdouts and labs. Even going mini FO will cause failure.
    3. EC nm without recon. Doing worms on the move has failed all eight times I have seen it tried. IMO, meno encourages camping over kiting because cripple is a death sentence on the move.
    4. EC nm without commando (or FO randomed). The only way i have seen people kill dome D is using nukes/arty. From the opinions I hear from vets, doing domes is suicide.
    5. AC without engi. No one wants to chase tanaka as he blindly walks into hordes of zombies. Besides, towers make so many things so much easier.

    My biggest problem with surv nm right now is that parrots are 20x harder to kill if you dont find the 1 stinger that drops between 10 and 20 minutes. Of course those people with 100k+ xp tend to just buy what they want because they dont need credits like the rest of us.

    Also, has anyone else noticed that chem expert is obsolete except when randomed? The following are highly discouraged to the point of rage quits and team kills: delta mando, tele PO, pyro flamethrower, explosives demo, and jump PF (probably because it explodes for no reason). Essentially anything that does not provide excellent DPS or a vital service does not have a place on the team.

    My other major problem is that the only people who play nightmare generally have all their nm medals already. I don't get LOM, NC, or even DSM because no one cares enough to see them done. Also 99% of games people walk around a rock or wall straight into a baneling. For this sole purpose I feel the urge to get mono and kill all the rocks on the map.
  20. Drunk

    Drunk Well-Known Member

    Well of course everything is ridiculously harder than usual, its called Nightmare Mode for a reason ya know. Its obviously meant to be way harder than the typical pub stomp.
    It is true that many of the nm games you see today are played using such methods. However, you are also wrong in saying that the success chances of using other methods are nil. Much of these examples are based on your experience (as noted from your usage of "I"), so unless you can prove that every nm game in NOTD cannot succeed w/o using the classes (and their respective uses) listed above, one would probably not take your word for it. ^^
    Again, I refer to my first comment. Sure its harder, but its not impossible.
    That, or they want to make life easier for the team by killing off potential threats, which really shouldn't be anything to complain about (seeing as a successful game still grants you the same amount of rewards only at the cost of their credits)
    Yeah... I have a feeling that your argument is going waaaay off topic. I believe this thread was made to discuss about GOTB, not one for discussion on medals and discouraged classes.

    Edit: Also, if you claim that 99% of the games you play involves people facetank banes on purpose, you're likely playing with inexperienced people, which can also tie back to why you mostly see the team playing according to the listed classes and their respective strategies. If such is the case, consider teaming with people who can cooperate with the team better, rather than lose patience and express your rage of lacking medals.

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