Guardian of the Beta... does it need a rework?

Discussion in 'NOTD Discussion' started by RoboMonkey, Jun 6, 2013.

  1. ChuckWing

    ChuckWing Member

    Surv is a complete campfest and boring as hell. It has the highest xp requirement, yet is by far the easiest story to complete. I say make an invulnerable meno who runs around spawning worms the entire game (or starting at a certain wave like 11?). Can u imagine any other boss in notd that you have to fight with nothing spawning? Gotb has none so of course he's going to be too easy. Anyone here imagine fighting eos, hades, or pers with no spawns? They would be a cakewalk just like gotb is.

    And why the hell are people talking about nerfing net? All the abilities that are overpowered in this game and people are talking about nerfing net? If someone tries to say net is overpowered and overused, you obviously don't play this game enough. There's maybe a handful of ppl who I have seen use net on anything other than gotb or athena. So ur nerfing something that is overwhelmingly used for 2 units on 2 different storylines. It's not a problem with net, it's a problem with gotb.
  2. Hades

    Hades Member

    i kinda wonder where all those surv -nm games are happening, eu chat channel and -nm player vets are practically all gone and theres not any chat going on in the americas notd chan. super secret channel ?

    i cant find any other games then pub and maybe the once in a blue moon occasional alpha
  3. Arturia

    Arturia Well-Known Member

    I mostly agree with Niktos here.

    Fighting Guardian of the Beta pre-camping was nightmarish. Didn't even have to be in nightmare mode for it to take obscene periods of time. For the most part, Technician would spam exhaust, and whoever has an L3 will spam-fire it behind the team, hoping GotB gets hit by them. If a stun is available, stun GotB, try to dish damage out, and once the stun ends continue running / sprinting from him. Ideally, you would stack enough venoms to slow him down enough that even the technician can walk away. At the end of the day, you're banking on OW + Venom to bring him down safely, which takes a long amount of time. 15 DPS or so is a pitiful way to try and kill a boss, but its difficult to have other's attempt to supplement that damage unless you have a recon LDing the Guardian, or an ample amount of road flares giving you visibility of the guardian, and a Barret.

    Guardian of the Beta is extremely time consuming to deal with if you have to kite him. Add sprint on top of that, and you also get nerve-wrecking. While yes, the method I described isn't the definitive "How to kill GotB while kiting," its one I've had experience using. Its an old method, but it makes obvious why people would prefer to camp Guardian of the Beta.

    Given the choice between kiting and camping Guardian of the Beta, camping will always be faster, convenient, and easier. Kiting Guardian of the Beta is time consuming, a massive pain in the ass, and problematically difficult. Though, take into account the vast majority of my experiences with Guardian of the Beta involve normal mode survival games with relatively inexperienced players, or as part of a 2 ~ 3 man grind team. Nightmare is assumed to be more impractical for kiting Guardian of the Beta based on those experiences I had.

    Simply stated, I do not believe that your idea (Ability) will fix the issue of camping. It reminds me of a reverse Seth Charge, but more annoying and dangerous to enter.

    If the skill is going to be implemented anyways, I would modify that skill to be more like this:

    Guardian's Focus (Active - can only cast when engaged in combat with players)
    - When cast, a 7 radius blue energy circle will form under him. GOTB's shields gain a massive amount of regeneration and armor (+500 shields regen, +20 shields armor. This is assuming GOTB still has a low shield capacity below 500); the GOTB turns inactive and 'charges' for 8 seconds. After 8 seconds, everything in 35 radius not in energy circle gets hit by an energy blast for 600 damage over 4 seconds. The GOTB's move speed and attack damage become 0 afterwards; charge is disabled. The DoT effect is not applied as a -HP regeneration effect; it is done by having a periodic damage effect occur every second.

    - The energy circle will only form on the same terrain level as the GOTB.

    - Marines gain +5 energy and shields regeneration while in the energy circle. This effect persists for 5 seconds after entering the energy circle; it does not stack. Marines that have this effect on them are not affected by the Energy Blasts.

    - After the blast occurs, GOTB recovers 10 / 20 / 30... / 100% of his move speed and attack damage over the next 10 seconds (5 seconds for nightmare). Charge is re-enabled after GOTB reaches 100% move speed and attack damage.

    - GOTB will use this ability every 75 seconds.


    Stop with the damn 7's. Seriously. Repeating integers got boring, and just because a number is used for thematic effect, it doesn't mean it'll be balanced.

    Invulnerability a no go. This type of mechanic is silly, and just a time waster. Instead, massive shield regeneration & armor is applied so that GOTB will waste your ammo if you don't hold fire. However, GOTB is still able to be damaged through his shields because like it or not, one powerful punch will make the Shields Regeneration a moot point. This means unless everyone is intent on gunning him hard with laser rifles, or people are hitting him with heavy hitting effects, nothing will be accomplished.

    If you're camping where I think you're camping, then this essentially forces a no camping.

    Instead of making the energy circle a complete pain in the ass, I think that it might be nice if players got a little something. Besides, since GOTB is charging a massive amount of energy, that means a large amount of energy is traveling into the energy circle. So, the marine's get charged up while GOTB is also charging. Also, this effect serves as an indicator for making a unit be unaffected by the blast.

    I'd prefer that people are able to possibly survive this should they fuck up. Fibrins and Reaper Protect may help a person survive this. Or a taunt. I think instant-gibs are some of the stupidest shit to ever exist, so I'd prefer people have a hope of surviving. This of course implies that campers can possibly camp it out and survive. If they really intend to do that, they'll have to make a sacrifice though.

    The slow recovery is designed to remove the idea of "Well, now that he finished the effect, You're fucked :D!" Its intended to make it so that GotB isn't going to get a free kill every time he uses the skill. This is designed to provide reactionary time for players to get the hell away from GotB.

    The cooldown being short is probably a stupid idea. It just ends up with GOTB pausing every couple of seconds to use this skill, and that means a large period of time where he takes no damage / reduced amounts of damage. This essentially prolongs the suffering, and makes it last a lot longer than it needs to last.
  4. Ability
    • Development Team
    • NOTD Creator

    Ability NOTD Creator

    Thanks for the feedback. Agree that it shouldn't allow the GOTB to one-shot anyone after the spell is cast. Also like the idea for the incentive for players being inside the Energy Circle. Fair input on no invul when the spell in charging, gives teams more options to play the boss fight. On the '7' number, it's not important - more a placeholder to craft the spell mechanics first. Updated.

    Guardian's Focus (Active - can only cast when engaged in combat with players)
    - When cast, a 7 radius blue Energy Circle will form under GOTB at same terrain level. GOTB turns gains +500 Shield Regeneration, +20 Shield Armor, turns inactive and 'charges' for 7 seconds. After 7 seconds, everything in 35 radius gets hit by an Energy Blast for 500 damage. After casting Energy Blast, a 5 second 'Recovery' debuff is applied to GOTB. Recovery reduces GOTB's attack damage, attack speed and movespeed by 80%.
    - When Marines enter Energy Circle, they gain gain an 'Energized' buff. Provides +5 Energy Regen, +5 Shield Regen and grants immunity to Energy Blast
    - GOTB can use this ability every 75 seconds.

    If we implement this, do we still want to give GOTB cliff-walk? My suggestion is not, to keep the fight more manageable. Any other inputs?
  5. rockz
    • Donator

    rockz Well-Known Member

    How will this stop me from mcing 4 agrons and have them tank gotb while the entire team stands range 2 away from him safely nestled atop a cliff?
  6. Arturia

    Arturia Well-Known Member

    Because your team gets its served by energy blast for not being on the same terrain level as GotB, and your agrons get diced up by GotB after a few seconds.
  7. EdowardoLMP

    EdowardoLMP Well-Known Member

    It's possible to make GotB damage to armored like how IVAX does.
  8. vexxenon

    vexxenon Well-Known Member

    I agree. This is essentially 1 time skill for GOTB since GOTB dies on average, less than 20 seconds with full team. So to that extend, he can only use this ability once. When he is engaged with players, he uses that uber spell, rendering him uber for 7 seconds. So as long as your argon can withstand that length of time, they'll be fine. So what is there to stopping my entire team on the ramp within the 7 range of his circle, with multiple argons between my team and GOTB? If so then GOTB still lose.
  9. Arturia

    Arturia Well-Known Member

    Refer to:

    That means if you are up on the cliff and Guardian of the Beta is not, you will get hit by the energy blast.

    The buff only applies to people that are both within 7 radius AND on the same terrain level.
  10. WarToRock

    WarToRock Member

    And once again, I say add nydus-para spawning in addition with 1 meno (plz)

    when?: When gotb appears he should be able to spawn 2 para-nydus next to player
    why?: ppl will also focus on their holdout for keeping it save

    in addition 1 meno shall give the extra nm feeling (and mb extra xp)

    Nothing new, i know, but this will rise the difficulty for sure.
    (I just want to force ppl to l3 em to death for a reason xD hehe)

    And some ideas more:

    Let gotb spawn purple jumping banes from the sc2 hots campagne. ppl will have to switch their focus if those little beasts get down agrons too fast.
    Or give other infected a chance to reach team. So many possibilitys with swarm hosts and minion abilitys. think about viper ;p

    GOTB imba boss abilitys:
    regen state like ere2, rnd napalm rain arround him, each time gotb attacks he does aoe dmg to EVERYTHING arround, give him x1 laser eyes to a fixed spot where the most dmg comes from, rnd energy mines which can blow buildings, a state where u only can dmg him with ow, give him mc, make him fly like the archangel for air attacks etc.

    I am also thinking about a fighting location instead of finding your rat hole like the hades fight.

    But this should be enough thoughts for today.

    give feedback plz
  11. vexxenon

    vexxenon Well-Known Member

    You tell me how many places in NOTD map that is leveled in terms of terrain that is enough for few argons to block off. It's not hard to get 4+ argons in surv, not including all the other mobs u can MC. So you wall off a narrow corridor that is same level as GOTB, have your wall of argon, and u stand behind them. Now tell me how good your solution is.

    If you want to promote "not camping", then remove GOTB charge rape, then maybe you'll have a chance for people to kite him like in regular surv.
  12. Arturia

    Arturia Well-Known Member

    I'm not the one that is concerned about finding places to camp. All I'm concerned with is suggesting an idea that makes you unable to camp Guardian of the Beta.

    Forcing you off of the high ground is a big enough impact. If people can still continue to camp then maybe more things will get added to Guardian of the Beta. For the most part, losing the high-ground advantage will be a sufficient impact. Do you intend to camp out every wave at that location? How will you deal with the Machine and Marine waves? Or are you planning to camp at one spot, then have your entire team move to another location for that wave?

    Either way, it breaks up your routine.

    But as far as I'm concerned, your proposed idea of removing Charge doesn't fix the fact that you can still camp him, and that camping will be easier than kiting. If you're not forced to kite him, you won't kite him.

    Unless you include something that will entirely prevent people from camping him, people will still camp him, even if it is possible to kite him. Camping has worked for people so far; what will removing charge do to make them stop camping? All it does is make kiting more possible; it doesn't make camping anymore difficult or easier than it already is.
  13. Peerawatz
    • Development Team

    Peerawatz NOTD Staff: Sound Mixer and NOTD Troll Chieftain

    I have been gathering a lot of ideas, they are all new stuffs, not just an old stuff used by old bosses or simple old mechanics. I have been thinking it over and over, combining all elements together, from difficulty, fun and possible-to-do by the editor.

    The idea is very large and will require a full rework of the entire fight with GOTB, eliminating everything it has now (charges, imba attack damage etc.) and replace with a new fight, It's going to be unique enough that I'm even considering allow the previously dead marines to revive just for this fight (To reward that they actually stay up until the 30th wave too), and kills every zombies/hostile units just before the fight, so it's just the team VS the God himself.

    I'll discuss the details with AP Kith and Abi first, removing of what we can't do with current editor expert or what we won't do, then I'll post the final idea here again.
  14. squish

    squish Well-Known Member

    Here's an easy(ish) solution. Give the GotB a 8 minimum/60 range maximum teleport, that ignores pathing and terrain level, a 5 second charge up time, during which time he is immune to damage, and he gives an indicator of where he's going to teleport. Anything in a radius of 7 after the GotB blinks there takes 34% of total HP damage/70 dps to heroic for 3 seconds, (to kill MC'd mobs, and gives players incentives to GTFO of dodge) provided they stay within range. Cooldown of 11 seconds, to be fair. The 5 seconds charge time gives you reaction time, but not much. The 11 second CD gives sprint time to recharge so that you can GTFO again if need be. The minimum range will force you to stay fairly close to him. Also give him an aura that destroys non-heroic in range of 2. Towers solved. MC'd units wall solved. ez-pz.
  15. vexxenon

    vexxenon Well-Known Member

    Read what I wrote, how is that not camping? Sure I lose the high ground advantage, but if I have a narrow path (plenty of in NOTD) and few argons, I can still camp in the same terrain level, with the purposed GOTB skill.

    For example: I can go SY wall, camp there for the duration before wave 40, for wave 40, I let GOTB get up to the narrow wall, park 4-6 argon and whatever else I have between me and him, voila. I'm now in the same terrain level, tightly packed within his range 7 radius, my argons will provide meatshield, I'm still camping.
  16. Arturia

    Arturia Well-Known Member

    Yes, I did read what you said. Otherwise, I would have just spewed some stupid unrelated shit all over the place instead of replying to your post.

    The Minimum impact of this change would be that it changes your Survival NM routine by changing how you will have to deal with a boss. Whether this makes him uncampable or not is another issue. At the very least, it makes it slightly more difficult to camp him.

    If agrons tanking GotB is why people can camp, then maybe GotB will get a damage boost with a damage penalty to heroic, making him deal more damage to other enemies, but dealing the same damage to players. Or he just gets insane Life Leech for consecutive hits against a target. Ideally, such unimaginative measures won't have to be taken, because they're bland and stupid.

    Do you have any more argument for how removing GotB's charge will fix the issue of players camping?

    If you want, GotB can become some crack bunker-buster, but then we end up with an overpowered mess of a boss. Its better to take it one step at a time instead of adding a whole load of shit all at once.

    So yeah. What you're saying makes sense, but we don't know if it will actually work. If it does, and works reliably, then another evaluation would have to be done on GotB. But that is a thing for another time. At least, that is how I see it.
  17. vexxenon

    vexxenon Well-Known Member

    You are the one that likes to quote everything, fine this time I properly quoted, and explained to you why what you propose wouldn't work i.e. "idea that makes you unable to camp Guardian of the Beta"

    Now you want this? "If agrons tanking GotB is why people can camp, then maybe GotB will get a damage boost with a damage penalty to heroic" How does that solve camping? if any, that makes me want more argons, and more camping, I sure as hell not going to kite, as he already 1 hit KO, now maybe 1/2 hit KO ? lol

    Tell me a boss that 1 hit KO you most of time in NOTD, the only real one I can think of is GOTB. With that being said, he have cloak, super fast move speed, and charge. Kiting and WINNING is simply not doable. The only person that I've seen kite GOTB in surv nm is MSuiter for about 10 min, and even then, he lost.

    The last thing I will do is go out in the open and kite him, what I will do is put shitload of whatever I can between GOTB and myself, and if that is done by zoo, be it.
  18. Arturia

    Arturia Well-Known Member

    Thanks for reading, however, I would suggest re-reading and addressing the entire post rather than a select section of it.

    If you intend to quote use the [ quote="NAME"] [/quote] tools, because you clearly fail to cite who the quote comes from, which tends to make reading it a bigger pain in the ass. Usually, you can hit "Reply" and it'll automatically quote the entire post. If you use [ quote] and [/quote] to separate each individual piece, it'll be much easier to read for other people.

    Now, apparently you failed to notice the following text. I made it bold for you to be able to identify the part of my own post that I am referring back to.

    So GotB would only kill your zoo faster, but it wouldn't kill you any faster or slower than it normally does.

    Lets not forget that you failed to read the ending sentence in that paragraph as well.

    Basically, that means "retarded solutions that we could take, but are retarded and uninteresting, so hopefully they don't get used."

    If anything, such a step is one I would not want to see implemented because it also fucks over tactics that can be used for kiting at the cost of making camping impossible. That means it doesn't push the GotB fight into any direction we would want it to go in.

    As far as 1-hitting bosses go, those for the most part don't exist by virtue of the fact that they have a variety of abilities. Most bosses tend to be unlocked by 3500 XP. GotB is the only unique boss that gets unlocked at 5000 XP, as the final boss. But he is primarily Hephaestus without any skills and just high damage. GotB lacks characteristics aside from being the only protoss model unit (that I can think of) as well as having high damage. If he actually had abilities, then he wouldn't need such high damage. But as far as "Last Bosses" go, he's the weakest in terms of health, and the least dynamic.

    If you were arguing about the first implementation of GotB being a 1-hitter, then maybe you would have a valid argument on that, but GotB in his current incarnation can be "tanked".

    Technician, for a short period of time, can survive against GotB. The same can be said true for a Fortitude Demolitions, but Fort Demo wouldn't survive the second attack wave. Technician would only last 3 attack waves. Tank assault at best would last for the same amount of time as Fort Demo.

    Orderbat is the unluckiest of the tanks, lacking any means of damage reduction other than the stun. Orderbat would be able to tank only as much as Fort Demo and Tank Assault at best. Orderbat is likely to die in the first wave unless Vengeance triggers on the first damage effect Guardian of the Beta does. So no, he isn't a sure-fire instant killer. He just tends to kill people that aren't tanks in one hit.

    So, how about you address how removing charge would make people more likely to kite Guardian of the Beta than camp him instead of misreading what I post and selecting one specific point to argue instead of the entire post.
  19. vexxenon

    vexxenon Well-Known Member

    QUOTE ENTIRE Arturia previous post.
    "If agrons tanking GotB is why people can camp, then maybe GotB will get a damage boost with a damage penalty to heroic, making him deal more damage to other enemies, but dealing the same damage to players.
    So GotB would only kill your zoo faster, but it wouldn't kill you any faster or slower than it normally does."

    Facepalm, I'm sorry, but I just have to apologize before I say the next sentence, but do you even play the current game?
    Knowing GOTB 1 hit KO most units, and even if you include your MOTM tech, your fort demo, your orderbat, they can't tank for long enough in terms of duration, to kill GOTB, you still need your team for dps. Now that being said, kiting is out of the door. So the only thing left is camp. You want to destroy the mechanism that prevent GOTB from getting to player, in this case, happens to be zoo or turret to towers, you want to promote "not camping" hence, your solution makes GOTB kills argons even faster. Knowing kiting is out of door giving current GOTB, why the hell do I not want 2 MC engs with shitload of zoos? Now you ask, "but dealing the same damage to players" wasn't quoted, does that matter? he already 1 hit KO most players, why do I care? all I care now is put more meatshield between my team and GOTB, if 1 zoo isn't enough, then make it 2.

    "If you were arguing about the first implementation of GotB being a 1-hitter, then maybe you would have a valid argument on that, but GotB in his current incarnation can be "tanked".

    Technician, for a short period of time, can survive against GotB. The same can be said true for a Fortitude Demolitions, but Fort Demo wouldn't survive the second attack wave. Technician would only last 3 attack waves. Tank assault at best would last for the same amount of time as Fort Demo."

    Double facepalm, ok I give up, yes he "Technically" can be tanked, then WHAT? 3 hits your tech dead, 2 hits fort demo dead, wheres your dps to kill him? if those "2 hit tanks" are dead, what good does your "tank" do? You gotta look the game from a bigger picture.

    "So, how about you address how removing charge would make people more likely to kite Guardian of the Beta than camp him instead of misreading what I post and selecting one specific point to argue instead of the entire post."

    I assume you've tried to kite GOTB both in reg surv and nm surv, and you should know the HUGE difference between the two. If GOTB doesn't charge, at least I have a chance to kite in NM if I wanted to, that means e.g. team wipes during persus, demio, machine wave, marine wave, etc whatever. Now it doesn't mean a FULL team will be willing to KITE GOTB given that the entire team lives up to wave 40, it is much safer to camp and get MOH. However, giving your current stance on "promote not camping" tell me, you have a 1 hit unit that charges your and rapes your entire team, who in their right mind would want to kite unless you have to?

    That brings me to the last point, if you give GOTB some spell ability that removes camping, e.g blackholes, meno worms whatever, and you still have him able to CHARGE and 1 hit KO units, good luck to your surv nm games.

    P.S. Oh btw, zoo isn't the only way to deal with GOTB, there are plenty of camping builds, I assume you know them.
  20. rockz
    • Donator

    rockz Well-Known Member

    IMO gotb should only be kitable.

    1337 damage and cliffwalk would pretty much solve everything. Even then, with enough stuns and a good team you can kite him pretty well at toxins with the rest of the team on the top through stuns and slow.

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