Gravity Gun

Discussion in 'Archive' started by Jercy, Apr 10, 2012.

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  1. Jercy

    Jercy Well-Known Member

    I think the gravity gun should be put back into survival.
  2. Lord NiteShade
    • Wiki Founder
    • Community Leader

    Lord NiteShade NOTD Staff: Wiki Founder/TeamSpeak Admin

    RE: Survival Mode Discussion

    It was either fix every single possible terrain cheese and glitch. Or remove the GG.
  3. Arturia

    Arturia Well-Known Member

    RE: Survival Mode Discussion

    Remove GG in general would have been the correct choice.
  4. ArcturusV

    ArcturusV New Member

    RE: Survival Mode Discussion

    Do we really need the Griefer Gun in a mode where Mind Mastery Sex Ops are often used? If you're not talking about Cheese use of the Griefer Gun it's 90% of the time "Having a free force push which also damages".

    I'd be interested to see what said Blaqks and such think about having devices that effectively supplant their primary skill/role.
  5. Kith
    • Development Team
    • Designer

    Kith NOTD Staff: Anti-Fun Wizard Skeleton

    RE: Survival Mode Discussion

    I think the GG should be removed, period. It's the source of so much cheese it might as well be called the Nacho Gun. I'm tired of its presence, and if NOTD is going anywhere as a marketable product, it's going to have to be removed at some point or another. We need the space, and the Gravity Gun was at no point necessary. The majority of the cheese tactics or engine abuse that isn't a bug usually involves the Gravity Gun in some way.
  6. Blaqk
    • Development Team
    • Webmaster/Liaison

    Blaqk NOTD Staff: Bugs, Pugs, and Scruggs

    RE: Survival Mode Discussion

    That's almost racist. =P

    Gravity Gun is useful if used as a utility, which in the hands of the vast... vast majority of players, it isn't. I agree it should just be removed.
  7. Nicarco
    • Warden
    • Donator

    Nicarco Warden

    RE: Survival Mode Discussion

    You could just remove the throw ability and make the gravity gun just grab things.
    That could make it less used as a griefing tool and so forth. (Maybe keep the autoattack but make it manual target)
  8. ArcturusV

    ArcturusV New Member

    RE: Survival Mode Discussion

    Still makes it a Cheesing Tool though, particularly for Elevation Hacks. Means we have to waste a lot of code on things like making sure random terrain objects can't be picked up and use their non-aggression and near invincibility as roadblocks (Used to happen with things like barrels, eggs, etc).
  9. Ramses II
    • Donator

    Ramses II Help, I can't change my title!

    RE: Survival Mode Discussion

    Just get rid of it entirely.
  10. Jercy

    Jercy Well-Known Member

    RE: Survival Mode Discussion

    Please do not do that. If it is truely that big of a deal then only make in spawn in games where the squard rating is greater than or equal to 1875.
  11. ArcturusV

    ArcturusV New Member

    RE: Survival Mode Discussion

    Why do you feel a need to keep it, much less at that arbitrary requirement mark?

    Here is my stance on the Griefer Gun:

    Due to the Cheese Potential of it there is probably a GRUNCH of Code that could be trimmed out if it was removed, and thus we didn't need to concern ourselves with things like Invincible Egg Walls, etc. This is an important point since apparently we're getting close to the cap.

    It was remove the ability for griefers to unduly ruin games while being immune to the anti-griefer Karmabite Mechanic.

    It would make the Psi Ops a more valued member of the team because anyone with a Gimmick Gun can't replace their primary talent use/role.

    It would be one more factor preventing cheap and easy item grabs into places that you aren't supposed to have access to yet (Like snagging a Crowbar in Alpha Company before Apollo or Airlock is opened. Sure there are other ways to do it, but since they are talent related it puts a check on it by requiring a particular alignment of chance based circumstances or sheer levels.

    The Pros for keeping the Griefer Gun, such as I can see is:

    Allows for slightly easier retrieval of Runners since you can elevator them up with it. But this is a rare use and hardly ever is an Important Factor in a game, as the home leg, when you're close enough to be Griefer Gunned is typically fairly safe as your teammates can provide cover fire.

    Allows for wrangling of Rogue AI units like Sheng's Boys who have trouble with Elevation positioning.

    Making a single enemy helpless, such as an Infestor (Other than it still spawning Banelings) so you can whack them without worry.


    I would argue the first isn't important enough to warrant it's continued presence in game. The second, well, without the coding that is currently taken up by the Griefer Gun it should be possible to create a simple, but more effective, positioning routine relative to the marines while still ending up ahead in Code Terms. I would think at least. And the third point is again a small use that I can't really see the value in compared to the drawbacks.

    I will mention I didn't list in here "Carry a Cripple". The reason for it being is that I'm on the fence about it. While it's obviously useful, it's again a fairly low percentage outcome. And why belittle what is supposed to be a dangerous condition and lower the value of things like Surgical Laser, or the Antivenoms on Chem Trooper and Medic (And item)?
  12. Lyanden

    Lyanden Well-Known Member

    RE: Survival Mode Discussion

    I do remember the eggs/transport + gg wall cheese. Considering barrels also block things from passing through, I would assume (given enough patience) a sort of barrel wall could be created/(ab)used provided the team using it do not avail of splash damage weapons

    or maybe walling off fort's entrance, then camping at the south (new) fort arm. Due to how AI mob movement is coded, spawns (like when only the GotB is left) would likely avoid the fort entrance and hang around under that arm where the team would be shooting fish in a barrel well away from the barrels thus preventing team from accidentally shooting said barrels.

    Have not seen or heard of this being done but it's a possibility and could be a point against the gg (or barrels heh)
  13. Blaqk
    • Development Team
    • Webmaster/Liaison

    Blaqk NOTD Staff: Bugs, Pugs, and Scruggs

    RE: Survival Mode Discussion

    My favorite use of the Gravity Gun is making those damned tentacles helpless and watching as they die. I hate those tentacles so much... This isn't a hentai.

    Beyond that, yeah its uses are often game altering. An example, Kith or I will often use it at Apollo's start to throw Lieutenant Sheng into the "Tartarus Pen" so he doesn't leech xp. We'll also gank Kith out of Apollo or throw supplies in to him if we find it early enough.

    I can go on. Stuff like that is useful, but manipulates the game in ways it shouldn't. Give it the ax.
  14. Lord NiteShade
    • Wiki Founder
    • Community Leader

    Lord NiteShade NOTD Staff: Wiki Founder/TeamSpeak Admin

    RE: Survival Mode Discussion

    [quote='Flintlckwood' A very long time ago]The Gravity Gun belongs in Notd almost as much as a battleaxe.
    [/quote]
  15. Blaqk
    • Development Team
    • Webmaster/Liaison

    Blaqk NOTD Staff: Bugs, Pugs, and Scruggs

    RE: Survival Mode Discussion

    Face it. The "weapon" is either vilified, misused, or abused. The few who do use it properly will find it becomes an inventory burden more than a useful tool. It's better that it goes.
  16. Ability
    • Development Team
    • NOTD Creator

    Ability NOTD Creator

    RE: Survival Mode Discussion

    Gravity gun is my baby - but I largely agree. Any violent objections to its removal?
  17. Shooz
    • Donator

    Shooz NOTD Staff: Killjoy

    RE: Survival Mode Discussion

    I LOVE GRAVITY GUN! Please reconsider taking it out.
  18. Blaqk
    • Development Team
    • Webmaster/Liaison

    Blaqk NOTD Staff: Bugs, Pugs, and Scruggs

    RE: Survival Mode Discussion

    DH3

    As useful and nice as the Gravity Gun is, it's more trouble than it's worth at this stage. We can reimplement it later if the dumband is colossal when we're not strained for space and after cheese possibilities have been weeded out, but with so much work on the table right now the Gravity Gun needs to go.
  19. Jercy

    Jercy Well-Known Member

    RE: Survival Mode Discussion

    I love the gravity gun as well, and I would really like to see it stay in NOTD. The gravity gun can be quite useful in a number instances and can sometimes be necessary in order to complete the game because teammates unfortantely died. Plus the gravity gun is a ton of fun to use, I love it. Skilled players can use it in some pretty useful ways, and it is also a very nice thing to have in your inventory when something unlucky occurs on one of your teammates; instead of your teammate dying you could save them from impossible odds. It takes skill to use the gravity gun properly. Yeah people cheese with it, but the removal of the gravity gun will cause those people to find another way to cheese some people just want the game to be easy. Please don't remove my favorite gun in NOTD.
  20. ArcturusV

    ArcturusV New Member

    RE: Survival Mode Discussion

    What concerns me, Shooz, Jercy, is that both of you and other supporters of the Gravity Gun don't really seem to have concrete reasons to support it. Jercy has done a bit better by getting some reasons listed, though lacking as much detail as I might particularly like. And I understand The Man in having blind pride in a creation. It happens to a lot of designers who are proud of something they see as unique and fresh, and have this desire to see them implemented more on the sheer factor of "Look how brilliant I am, a brilliant man am I" over the actual need and merits of the idea itself in context. It happens to the best of us. I am hard pressed to think of a gaming project I have been familiar with the design of that hasn't had a few items in it that suffered from such a pitfall. Including the library of homebrewed stuff my friends and I did throughout life.

    Jercy, having actual reasons listed that I can respond to, will be talked about here. It seems that one of the primary points I used against it is one of the reasons that you want to keep it. That simply put having a Gravity Gun means you do not need a Psi Ops on your team, flat out replacement by an item. And that if you are good with the griefer gun, you can also replace primary tanking with it's use due to the AoE Knockback Stuns which can be rapid fired cheaply. While I concede that such a use is useful... and that you might not consider it "Cheese" as it doesn't involve the things most people consider cheesy, like Elevation/Pathing Hacking... there seems something wrong with the basic balance precept of it. If you get lucky (Or just buy it), you have effectively made what should be a vital marine in your team completely superfluous and unnecessary. Yes, this allows you to succeed at a mission where you would have failed otherwise because key personnel have failed. Though it's a level of safety net I don't necessarily agree with. As well I personally find it Not Fun when my marine who should be a vital member of the team has been rendered a complete non-factor. Whether this is because my Psi Ops has been pushed aside by Griefer Gun Use, or even because my Assault Tank is strictly worse in almost every way than a skilled FortDemo. At your other mentioned point there comes a standard where eventually "Saving from Impossible Odds" is not a bonus but a penalty against the item. Not because it's not useful, but because being in "Impossible Odds" means you usually did something colossally stupid, and should rightly pay for it.

    I find the "Don't remove it because of Cheese because people will always cheese!" to be a logical fallacy. This is akin to saying things like "Don't prevent Ex-Cons from buying and possessing firearms because if they want to kill someone they are going to anyway!" While it is true that there won't ever be perfect systems, and there will always be factors that can be exploited by the crafty, this doesn't mean you should just accept egregious cheesing and exploits that break the game. You should still strive to remove the worst of it.
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