Discussion in 'Class Discussion' started by Kith, Mar 28, 2012.
I love FO as it is... But I got the feeling that this version will acquire more love from me.
One thing I always hated about the FO was Asgard because:
1. Makes me dizzy spinning around in a vomit cam screen
2. Only class with a T3 as a leaver, that cannot be used
Also with the current set-up of Fire Mission + T2 upgrades, it seems far better than Asgard.
Maybe in place of Asgard, you can change it to something like:
Each shell splits into 6 mini missiles before impact dealing more damage (Toggle).
- It hits with more accuracy leaving a smaller AoE in the target area, so it would be less likely to hit/tk an ally.
As for flare... how about letting it travel at a slow speed up to a radius of 25 from FO. As the flare travels from the FO to the direction directed, it lights up the path revealing even cloaked units. Flare stay in tact for 50sec. So it can randomly drop within the 1-25 radius anytime after being shot out by FO and last 50sec the second it begins moving.
He gains access to room lights for a certain amount of time by accessing nearby terminals(applies to building interiors only).
Asgard... Asgard still has to be reworked. But right now, it's a start.
Also, I'm gonna have to say that I'm not fond of that flare concept. I'd rather keep it simple and familiar.
awesome is all I could think of. Well thoughtful. No lolololol I IZ OP killjoy f.
Asgard is fun, but since it locks you out of using any abilities it would hurt your anti mob dps. I would never use the right tree simply because the sheer number of highly-spammable all-aoe high-damage horde-raping crater-carving ABILITIES OF HELLFIRE AND DOOM would make me j*$$ in my pants with long range destructive glee.
Yep. There's a reason that I put everything together to have a coherent theme.
Just an added suggestion on a more "meta" class development level: I tend to like it more when the tier 1 and tier 2 talents each have equal viability. For example, surv rifleman's focus fire versus saline; if I'm going silver star I generally only put one or two points in saline (two for venom emergencies) since I don't plan on getting hit. An early HMG and the recent traps change may compel me to get an earlier weapons prof point too. Even within one class spec, its nice to have multiple options and reduces the amount of "screw ups" that can happen on accident or as new people try an unlocked class. That said, there are some classes (demo lay mines/build mines) where I don't have as much of an issue, but that's just it; it should be an anomaly.
Regarding this discussion, it'd be nice to see the Infantry FO's having a more versatile tier 1 - I propose the one side increases your marines called down, but the other side's level 3 should offer the "sergeant" ability to your "first" marine. This way some people can go for mass marines, while others can go for one "super" bro-rine. Then they can either upgrade their bro-rine's equipment (flamer/mm) or add some goons to their bro-rine's squad.
Same goes for Artillery/AOE god FO. Someone suggested upgraded innate skill flares as an option. I know flares are quite useful in alpha, especially during Ivax. I'd like to see some more versatility than some of the "+5% to your other tier 1" skills out there.
I love the remake ideas though - specializing each side for a different flavor is much better than the "AOE/minitanks vs. Better AOE" FO is now. But, the FO's supposed to be a tactical wizz. He hacks turrets, calls down minions, and generally gets everyone else to do his shit for him. Right now, the skill choice order looks like it will be a no-brainer. Let's put the brainer back in FO.
I imagine the "brainer" lies in his unique mechanics. Fire Support has a limited shell count and Fire Mission has an adjustable number of shells (which is a lot more important than people think). Infantry Support will be bringing in multiple units to micro and stay on top of. The new FO will be much more streamlined in his role, yes, but that doesn't mean by any stretch of the imagination that he'll be any easier to play.
Oh, sorry, I didn't mean I thought you were making FO easier with my brainer comment. More talent point allocation order. And again, not singling you out - this class conception here is much better than the current FO in place. I especially like the % auto target being available at tier 1.
What I'm getting at is: Is increased % artillery auto-target as compelling to allocate early points in as barrage damage itself? It's nice when the two tier one and tier two abilities have a sort of equality that requires one to make a decision of which to spec into first/at all.
Take FA medic for example: shield or weave? A player needs to look at their current team composition and team needs to decide which move is more lucrative early.
Now, I could see some choosing increased % auto-target over Upgraded Munitions, but would one ever spend his or her first four points with only one point for the 25 damage shells with 3 points for the 100% accuracy to make their bombardments more "efficient"? What I think should be considered is balancing the two skills so that there is an equal viability to max spec in either, or even 2point-2point dual spec. This way even within one specialization of a class, there are little nuances that encourage different play styles and experimentation. I think this adds to the depth and reward of the game experience more than the "plug three points in X and only one in Y or else you're a noob" method that other classes can fall into.
Many would prefer to have much faster and more accurate barrages rather than the additional effects of Upgraded munitions, just as there are those who don't mind the calldown speed or the inaccuracy and would prefer ministuns and dots. There's another camp that would prefer to be able to drop bombing and rocket runs instead of supercharging their Fire Missions. There's unfortunately not much choice to be made in T1, but once you branch out things get interesting.
The same goes for Infantry Support. Do you want to go 3/3 for Tier 1? Do you want fully upgraded Marksmen or Firebats? Or do yyou want to be able to have both? Once you get four points into the respective T1s, then things get interesting and strategies really open up. Also, I specifically avoided the "single super powered bro marine" on purpose. That's the Engineer's domain.
You've certainly captured the "finish tier 1 vs. start tier 2" aspect which adds to the play experience. I see nothing wrong with that - and it seems all are on board with your layout so far. Hell, he's in the Demo class point class, so maybe FO should have a similar this-before-that tier 1 as well; especially since demo also has the tier 2 versatility that your FO has.
And I agree, we don't want to create a new combat Engy, especially since I've already seen threads about "Do we or do we not like the Engy?". But the Engineer is also "king" of the micromanagement domain, where letting a key capture like BBQ or a few BMs/Slashers die might mess up your army strategy. The expendability of current FO's minis has a different flare than this, since they may be called in for key situations but ditched in favor of saving your skin if things get too hot. If you are worried about breaching Engy's domain though, I'd consider seeing what the feedback for the Infantry spec is, especially since some people play NOTD as an escape from the multi-unit micromanagement of SC2 ladder.
Finally, an issue I thought of and probably one you have an answer for: How do you envision the infantry army working during gas? Do all outside of your gas-o-vison get sacrificed, or will there be something that recalls the minis during that time so you won't lose any from your reserve?
BTW, Thanks for your replies - its nice to see some feedback and to further understand the ideology behind these class reworks.
Well you can still control stuff that isn't your character during the Gas Sequence. See: How my Recon manages his Red Eyes Black Dragon. Just need them assigned to a hotkey for ease of use, which since they aren't fire and forget disposable units shouldn't be asking too much.
Fair enough. Looking forward to trying it if/when its implemented.
They MIGHT get owned because anything that isn't a player marine or Predator doesn't get teleported however. It's not much of an issue I imagine for Field Engineers as they'll have like 10 Agrons 3 Probes, and a Nexus just laughing at the fairly pathetic mobs that will home in on them. My Reaper just laughs saying "Ha ha, I can fly, later bitches!" FO might get hosed on only having 3 units and being forced to blind run ground pound their way to link up to you. Of course there is also a small window where a good FO might be able to run his Super Mear Bros. up from the lab to the Western Gate between the end of the lab hordes, and the gassing. Which also helps lock down the exit that 90% of the players use to get out.
About the comparison to the engineer - the Field engie is more focused on building a buffer of meatshields rather than having a squad of units to manage as his primary source of DPS. I agree that many play NOTD to get away from the micro of standard SCII, but nobody is being forced to play the FO, and nobody is being forced to play Infantry. I hardly think it'd be an issue.
I feel like this might be one of Infantry FO's times to shine (and not out-shine as Mr. Airstrike Everything tends to do). Locking down the Apollo entrance for a safe evacuation should increase the survivability of any alpha team and bring in some kudos for the FO.
And yeah Kith, I see your point - I'm sure the minis will be a little speedier than Engy's lugging nexus too. No animosity here, cheers.
I designed around the commando, if that makes sense. People say that the FO is redundant in the presence of the Ops Commando, so I aimed to make it kind of a one-or-the-other kinda deal. If you have an Opsmando, you get an Infantry Support FO. If you have a Deltamando, you get the Fire Support FO. They support each other just fine.
Wait... wait... wait....
People use Deltamando?
Though in all seriousness, not something I really considered. Though interesting and certainly true in its own regard.
He's rarely seen in Recruit because the Opsmando is the king of Easy Company, but he's insanely useful in any situation. I saw a Explo Demo/Deltamando pub combo the other day, and the rest of the team might as well not have even been there. Ere never stood a chance, the Delta hit him with The Horror before he could start breaking the Demo's mines and a Gravity nade to drag Ere to the mines. The Demo FV'd him and Ere went down like a chump. The only thing we didn't immediately faceroll was the Queen, but that's because we had no tank. We just kited her in circles while the Demo dropped explosives behind us.
But, yes, Delta was designed to synergize with the Forward Observer. Turns out dragging things together and stacking them on top of each other does wonders for splash damage skills.
People other than Reaper and I play Explosion Demo?
But yeah. It's a nice Dual Tech. I'd like to see it get used more. Though knowing the average player I'm betting it'll be more like OpsComm+Artillery FO.
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