FUREH FRUM DA SKIES: Kith's Forward Observer rework

Discussion in 'Class Discussion' started by Kith, Mar 28, 2012.

  1. spartanhija

    spartanhija Member

    Probably been mentioned but...
    -if u get upgrade mini skill 10-30% doesnt carry over when u switch to fbat or mm

    Other idea
    Each endurance bonus life also replenishes a mini reserve? On mobile phone sry typos
  2. Kith
    • Development Team
    • Designer

    Kith NOTD Staff: Anti-Fun Wizard Skeleton

    Possibly the improved equipment just hasn't been implemented yet for the Firebats and Marksmen. Also, Endurance is getting a rework of sorts, so. That's probably not going to happen.
  3. Ability
    • Development Team
    • NOTD Creator

    Ability NOTD Creator

    I like kithrixx's ideas. Improved stimpack may be too powerful as it looks like a sustained +35% attack speed buff. I'd probably reduce the IAS to 20%.

    I'll update the Improved Equipment on the other 2 gear sets in next patch.
  4. spartanhija

    spartanhija Member

    Thx for updates guys, on all post's :) used to feel like i was talking to an angry wall :p love the fo and to me ups for 2nd tier minis aint a huge deal but heard ppl complaining an thought u may want to know if not already. Miss the airstrike a lil but love the flamers XD
  5. Kith
    • Development Team
    • Designer

    Kith NOTD Staff: Anti-Fun Wizard Skeleton

    Quoted from the OP:

    Improved Stimpack is removal of the health cost and a 5% increase on the ms/as for the Stimpack ability. I don't mind the numbers being toned down for the sake of balance because it's infinitely sustainable as a result of IAS, just keep in mind to adjust the original numbers as well.

    I personally don't mind it being infinitely sustainable, considering that you're going to be juggling, at the very least, two different unit types, and constantly staying on top of reloads for the FO and keeping on top of Stims for the Marines is going to be taxing for most players. At most you'll have four, and that'll be some pretty complicated stuff.
  6. Arturia

    Arturia Well-Known Member

    Just Curious... Lets say there is a Field Engineer, who gets Compliance Nexus and an Forward Observer, who goes Infantry... can said Engineer, theoretically Use the Compliance Matrix on 6 of those Mini's take them as his own, and have the FO call down the last 3 to permanently use as his own?
  7. Kith
    • Development Team
    • Designer

    Kith NOTD Staff: Anti-Fun Wizard Skeleton

    "Hell no" is the phrasing that I would use. That would be amazingly overpowered.
  8. ArcturusV

    ArcturusV New Member

    Hmm, I dunno. There should in general be a code to prevent Field Engineers from Mindjacking other player's stuff. I know the "Cannot effect Mechanical" was thrown in to prevent them from taking other player's Predators back in the day. And it covers things like X1s and Field Probes.... makes me wonder if it works on Crawler Drones as I thought they were Robotic instead of Mechanical.

    But definitely yes, Hell No to that.
  9. Ability
    • Development Team
    • NOTD Creator

    Ability NOTD Creator

    Compliance Matrix will not work on them - will need to adjust some settings. Thanks for bringing it up.
  10. Arturia

    Arturia Well-Known Member

    The Point of that was; Did Ability ensure that couldn't happen?

    Compliance Matrix works on Non-Heroic Units; last I checked, Mobile Infantry weren't Heroic.

    This can be related to a certain Post. Namely, a Subtly Commando had highlighted Guardian of the Beta, of which, "Heroic" was not there, meaning he could have KMS'd it. Of course this is long fixed, but the point still stands; there can be many unusual exploits, and what I posted makes it sound plausible that such an exploit exists.

    I was very aware of how Overpowered it was/is; I had a concern that such a thing was actually do-able. Because, you can Mindjack Mini's, and logically, Mobile Infantry are mini's when you think about it. I was asking if it was possible to do, and not asking if it was something that was allowed to be done. It would be one hell of an exploit if it existed, so I ask if such an exploit does exist.
  11. Ability
    • Development Team
    • NOTD Creator

    Ability NOTD Creator

    In next patch, the Improved Equipment should flow correctly with all gear changes. Mobile Infantry also cannot be mind controlled. I've given the units a hidden buff that Compliance Matrix will check for to validate if it's a valid target. Net, on-going we can put in exceptions for Compliance Matrix on other units if needed.

    Both work okay in my single player testing, but let me know if you encounter any variations in multiplayer. Thanks for the heads up on these things too - helps a lot.
  12. Ability
    • Development Team
    • NOTD Creator

    Ability NOTD Creator

    I am going to implement the Level 2 of the Flamethrower/Marksman Specialization - and I want to build on all the ideas so far by adding more learning layers since Flamer/MM gears can be stronger if they passives were tacked on.

    I would propose that Level 2 also adds additional active abilities that perform those originally intended passive upgrades vs. them being straight passive. So the argument would be, if you can/want to micro more, you will get more punch by using those 2 gears. Otherwise, people can stick with Rifleman MIs as training wheels.

    Thoughts?

    Will implement as a test in next patch. The Slow Roast doesn't do the attack debuff yet - just testing it as a placeholder ability first (the +3 armor effect works).
  13. Kith
    • Development Team
    • Designer

    Kith NOTD Staff: Anti-Fun Wizard Skeleton

    So I finally got around to taking FO for a test run, and my notes are thus:

    Mobile Infantry:
    I forgot to check this, but apparently you can still call in MIs even though you've hit the respective cap and it ends up making the last one you called in disappear. Perhaps a population system would be in order.

    Weapon Mods apparently affect the Marksman and the Firebat MIs. Which is... not so good. My suggestion is make them have light/collapse-able versions of the standard weapons for lore and balance.

    Also the Firebats and the Marksmen have Stimpacks, which are supposed to be a Marine-only feature.

    Improved Equipment:
    oh god the damage
    My suggestion is to bust the bonus down to 5%/10%/15%. Right now, it's pretty brutal.

    Firebats:
    Armor bonus is supposed to be passive. I don't mind Slow Roast being an active, though, after playing around with it. To save space, just have Slow Roast drop enemy speed by 30% flat instead of the stacking shenanigans. With the bonus abilities that will become available with level 3 of Improved Equipment, I don't think there will be any lack of micro.

    Marksmen:
    The attack speed bonus is supposed to be a passive. Yeah, I know, MMs are gonna be pretty rad at attacking things, but they have no splash. They're also slow and fragile, so. Anyways, Focus can be either 20% damage or 20% attack speed, they both increase DPS in the same amount because ammo isn't being factored in.
  14. Ability
    • Development Team
    • NOTD Creator

    Ability NOTD Creator

    For next patch, I've removed the Stimpack from Flamer/Marksman gears. I still prefer to keep the Flamer armor bonus and MM attack bonus as actives to drive micro. At a persistent 5 armor, the MI Flamer is a bit hard to kill. For the MM gear attack bonus, I've changed it from attack speed to attack damage to optimize event firing. For the Rifleman MI's medkit, I'm still debating that because it makes the FO too self-sustainable. Post-combat, switch to Rifleman MI, heal, switch back. I would prefer that a Field Aid Medic plays a part in synergizing with him. Helps for Alpha too since most Medics are Nano in that storyline.

    I've also reduced the attack damage buff on Improved Equipment from 10/20/30% to 5/10/15%. Weapon mods now don't affect the MM MI, working on the Flamer MI weapon now.

    For spawning, MI won't drop down a replacement MI anymore if you still have 3 MIs alive. Going to add the Tier 3 soon - and it's going to be focused on the active (casted by FO hero).
  15. Kith
    • Development Team
    • Designer

    Kith NOTD Staff: Anti-Fun Wizard Skeleton

    I know you want to drive Micro, but at this point the Flamethrower is going to have a castable and a buff, the Marksman is going to have two buffs (one of which disables his movement), and the Marine has access to arguably one of the better buffs in the game at the cost of eating his health. I think that at least one of the bonuses granted by leveling the Specializations should be passive, considering that the Forward Observer is going to be juggling three additional units, each with at least two active abilities that he has to stay on top of.

    That said, I'll cook up something else for the Marine. The Medkit concept was, indeed, to have the Marine MI be self-sustainable. The Flamethrower's gimmick was that he was to be the most durable, the Marksman was to be the most damaging, and the Marine was to be semi-durable and semi-damaging, and he would achieve that with Stimpack use and then patching himself up with Medkits when appropriate. I understand your apprehension in making him too self-sustainable, and I thought that was an issue to tackle as well, which is why I gave it such a large cooldown. The "Sargeant" was supposed to be the Marines' upgrade of sorts, but from what I can see, the Sargeant buff is largely unnecessary, so I'll factor it out of the design and do something different.

    I think what got lost in translation somewhere along the way is the minis being capable of receiving ailments. From my few test runs, they either seem to be ailment immune or incredibly ailment resistant, but I'm not sure if that's just good micro or if that's extreme luck.
  16. Ghost
    • Warden

    Ghost Warden

    The dps on the mini Mm and rine was pretty high in last few alpha games. During the first two hold outs, they had more kills than most of the team and enemies didn't really get to come close. I wonder how the impact of the t3 and the actives will be like. We only used stims.
  17. HipHopDragon
    • Warden

    HipHopDragon Warden

    Can you change it so that minis stay on a hotkey after switching to another class?

    Also calling them down somewhere they cant spawn reduces the available number without giving a new marine.
  18. Kith
    • Development Team
    • Designer

    Kith NOTD Staff: Anti-Fun Wizard Skeleton

    Yeah. Their weapons need a lower base damage by at least 30%.
  19. ArcturusV

    ArcturusV New Member

    I'm fine with that. It makes sense to me as well as airborne typically carries light weight, more compact versions of weapons.
  20. spartanhija

    spartanhija Member

    Fo is pretty beast but hes also squishy and needs extra micro, so consider while he does have 3 units equiped with slightly upgraded weapon, he doesnt have any other skills if you go air. He gains smaller dps in quantity, but has nothing compared to osok, armag, motm, etc. So in essence when fighting larger enemies although his mm's do 50+ dam each they are less damaging than other skills and take more micro to keep alive as well as fo. When i have failed with new fo is when microing other units, they are great to have but can be his downfall. His mm's actually do againsts boss and massive units i believe. So recapping, air fo can be a great unit, and help keep fo alive from the extra meat and have decent dps, but if u go arty your dps is increased exponentially vs all enemies and the only drawback is time it takes to impact and no minis inbetween you and the hordes. I dont understand why ppl are complaining so much about air fos dps :/
    [hr]
    Well i would say im ignorant to why ppl are so upset about it. Especially since air fo is now limited in number of reserve units. If the player knows how fo works, hes probably going to go arty anyways.
    [hr]
    His mm's actually do less against bosses and massive is what i ment to say.

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