Forward Observer Rework: The "Kith Screwed Up" Edition

Discussion in 'Class Discussion' started by Kith, Jun 1, 2013.

  1. Kith
    • Development Team
    • Designer

    Kith NOTD Staff: Anti-Fun Wizard Skeleton

    Forward Observer Rework: The "Kith Screwed Up" Edition
    Alternately: The pitter-patter of tiny feet

    So people have had a major problem with the FO Minis and how killwhore-y they are or something. I don’t know. This prompted me to examine the minis a little more closely, and an epiphany hit me that allowing three of the FO’s minis at Tier 1, regardless of configuration, was kind of dumb. What also hit me was that the minis were supposed to be casters and all of this DPS increasing nonsense on the Marksman was misplaced. Then it hit me that, after taking a step back and looking at all of it, I really don’t know what the hell I was thinking originally. The biggest problem with the FO’s minis is that they are way too powerful, way too fast, and once they’re on the field, they’re kind of easy to handle.

    That’s dumb. I was wrong and had absolutely no idea what I was thinking at the time. Here’s a fix.

    Skill descriptions and basics:

    Tier 1
    Mobile Infantry
    The Forward Observer calls in a basic Mobile Infantry Marine to support him on the field. Marines are capable combatants and, once upgraded, can be equipped with a variety of tools to handle almost any situation. Only one Mobile Infantry can be under the Forward Observer’s control by leveling this skill. The Forward Observer has a total of 9 Mobile Infantry that can be summoned throughout the game, and this amount cannot be replenished.

    Level 1: General purpose infantry Marines become available for call-in.
    Level 2: Marines gain Stimpacks that increase their attack and movement speeds.
    Level 3: Marines gain Fragmentation Grenades.

    Equipment Upgrade
    The UGC Mobile Infantry have basic equipment, but upgrades can be administered to allow them to more effectively handle threats on the battlefield.

    Level 1: Improves the Mobile Infantry’s first ability
    Level 2: Grants the Mobile Infantry unique passive bonuses
    Level 3: Improve the Mobile Infantry’s second ability


    Tier 2
    Flamethrower Infantry
    The Forward Observer can call in a heavily armored Mobile Infantry Flamethrower to augment his forces with a close combat specialist. Leveling this skill increases the amount of Mobile Infantry that the Forward Observer can have active by 1. Only one Flamethrower can be active at any time.

    Level 1: Heavy infantry Flamethrowers become available for call-in that can use Hotfoot to increase their close combat power.
    Level 2: Flamethrowers gain Incendiary Grenades.

    Marksman Infantry
    The Forward Observer can call in a lightly armored Mobile Infantry Marksman to augment his forces with a defensive long-range combat specialist. Leveling this skill increases the amount of Mobile Infantry that the Forward Observer can have active by 1. Only one Marksman can be active at any time.

    Level 1: Sniper infantry Marksmen become available for call-in that can use Dance! to slow oncoming enemies.
    Level 2: Marksmen gain Smoke Grenades.

    Tier 3
    Dogs of War
    The Mobile Infantry gain access to various specialist equipments, increasing their versatility and effectiveness by leaps and bounds. Marines gain the TSG “Two Step Goodbye” disposable rocket launcher for armored targets, Flamethrowers gain improved shield capacitors and are able to perform the “Shield Buster” maneuver, and Marksmen gain “Big Sting” specialist ammunition that is useful for destroying body armor.

    Level 1: The Mobile Infantry gain various abilities.

    OTIS WUZ HEER NOTD2 SNEEK PEEK!!!

    Variant Tier 3:
    Healing Hands
    The Forward Observer can call in a Corpsman medical specialist to augment his forces with a healer. Leveling this skill increases the amount of Mobile Infantry the Forward Observer can have active by 1. Only one Corpsman can be active at any time.

    Level 1: Medical infantry Corpsmen become available for call-in.

    Unit and Ability stuff
    Show Spoiler

    Forward Observer Abilities:

    Marine Call In Active: 50 energy cost, 30 second cooldown
    Marines are basic all-purpose combatants that are armed with a GPR-12. They are considered the backbone of any infantry squad.

    Marksman Call In Active: 50 energy cost, 60 second cooldown
    Marksmen are disabling sniper-spotters that are armed with a M-45 Marksman Rifle. They are useful in long-range combat and area control, but are fragile.

    Flamethrower Call In Active: 50 energy cost, 60 second cooldown
    Flamethrowers are heavy close combat fighters that are armed with a MK-3 Flamethrower. They are extremely powerful in close quarters but cannot attack air units.

    - NOTD2 ONLY -
    Corpsman Call In Active: 50 energy cost, 60 second cooldown
    Corpsmen are medically trained soldiers that are armed with a P-45 Gauss Pistol. They are good at supporting troops defensively through healing but lack offensive power.

    Unit Stats:

    Marine
    Biological, Light
    Health: 150
    Armor: 2
    Shields: 20
    Shield Armor: 1
    Movespeed: 2.25
    Sight: 8

    Weapon: GPR-12 (player version, not mini version)

    Abilities:
    Stimpack - Q Active: 10 health cost, 10 second cooldown
    Increases movement and attack speed by 25% for 10 seconds.

    Fragmentation Grenade – W Active: 25 second cooldown, 10 range
    Fires a Fragmentation Grenade at an area. Deals 75 damage (+10 vs Light) in a 1.5 radius.

    Two Step Goodbye – R Active: 120 second cooldown, 15 range
    Fires the TSG disposable rocket launcher at an area. Deals 800 (+200 to Armored) damage to all units in a 0.5 radius.

    Equipment Upgrade Improvements
    Level 1: Stimpack no longer costs health.
    Level 2: GPR-12 gains 0.5 splash radius.
    Level 3: Increases Fragmentation Grenade's damage to 100 +30 vs Light.


    Marksman
    Biological, Light
    Health: 100
    Armor: 0
    Shields: 10
    Shield Armor: 0
    Movespeed: 2.25
    Sight: 12

    Weapon: M45 Marksman Rifle (player version, not mini version)

    Abilities:
    Dance! – Q Active: 20 second cooldown, 20 range
    Repeatedly fires at a single target, slowing their movement speed by 30%. Lasts until interrupted or until target dies. The Marksman deals 60% less damage and has 30% increased attack speed during Dance!

    Smoke Grenade – W Active: 40 second cooldown, 12 range
    Throws a smoke grenade at target area, slowing the movement and attack speed of all units within by 15% in a 3 radius for 15 seconds.

    Big Sting – R Active: 10 second cooldown, 20 range
    Shoots a single target, dealing 60 damage (+20 to Heroic) and lowering its armor by 5 for 10 seconds.

    Equipment Upgrade Improvements
    Level 1 – None (technically it upgrades Dance!, but Level 1 EU is required to get to Tier 2, so it comes pre-upgraded)
    Level 2 – Increases Marksman sight range by 3 and weapon range by 3.
    Level 3 – Improves the Smoke grenade’s slow to 30%.


    Flamethrower
    Biological, Armored
    Health: 200
    Armor: 4
    Shields: 50
    Shield Armor: 2
    Movespeed: 2.45
    Sight: 6

    Weapon: MK-3 Flamethrower (player version, not mini version)

    Abilities:
    Hotfoot – Q Toggle, 10 second cooldown
    While active, deals 10 damage per second to all units within a 2 radius, but reduces movespeed by 30%.

    Incendiary Grenade – W Active: 30 second cooldown, 8 range
    Deals 35 damage in a 2 radius. Enemies struck by the explosion take 10 damage per second for 10 seconds and have their attack speed slowed by 15%.

    Shield Buster - R Active: 180 second cooldown
    The Flamethrower overloads his shield capacitors, dumping all of his suit's energy into them and supercharging them with 50 additional shield capacity and 10 shield armor for 10 seconds. After 10 seconds, the overcharged shields shatter, exploding outward and stunning all units within a radius of 2 for 3 seconds. Shield Buster depletes all available shields and inflicts a Short Circuit on the Flamethrower upon completion.

    Equipment Upgrade Improvements
    Level 1 – None (technically it upgrades Hotfoot, but Level 1 EU is required to get to Tier 2, so it comes pre-upgraded)
    Level 2 – Increases Flamethrower armor by 4.
    Level 3 – Improves the Incendiary Grenade’s radius to 3, increases the damage over time to 12, and increases the attack speed slow to 20%.

    - NOTD2 ONLY -
    Corpsman
    Biological, Light
    Health: 150
    Armor: 2
    Shields: 20
    Shield Armor: 1
    Movespeed: 2.25
    Sight: 8

    Weapon: P-45 Gauss Pistol

    Abilities:
    Heal – Active, 3 range
    Heals 3 health per second on target allied unit.

    First Aid – Active, 10 second cooldown, 3 range
    Removes a random ailment from the target allied unit.

    Equipment Upgrade Improvements
    Level 1 – None (technically it upgrades Heal, but Level 1 EU is required to get to Tier 2, so it comes pre-upgraded)
    Level 2 – Increases Heal to 5 health per second.
    Level 3 – Reduces First Aid’s cooldown to 5 seconds.


    Concepts
    Show Spoiler

    NO MORE EQUIPMENT SWAPPING
    You heard that right. If you call in a specialist, you’re stuck with it ‘til it dies. Same goes for minis. This will increase the micro requirements enormously if you want to get the most out of your three different minis. If you don’t want to micro three different units, there’s always triple Marine. If it’s NOTD2, you could even get a fourth Marine by grabbing Healing Hands, although I wouldn’t really advise it considering that said Marines wouldn’t have access to Two Step Goodbye.

    NO MORE TRIPLE SPECIALIST
    The only MI type that is not restricted is the standard Marine.

    NO MORE 3 MI AT TIER 1
    I think this is the most important change out of all of ‘em. You can only get 1 MI from Tier 1, and you can increase that by leveling the two Specialist abilities. This should slow the FO’s leveling and kill rate significantly, and also put a dampener on the stupid and awful “three MI, full arty” tactic.

    WTF IS A VARIANT TIER 3?
    NOTD2 thing. All classes will be updated with Variant Tier 3s to expand class choices. These function by being “either or” options – for instance, with the Forward Observer, you can choose Dogs of War or Healing Hands, but not both.

    EQUIPMENT UPGRADE NOTIFIER
    Each Mobile Infanty unit should come with an icon in their command card that notifies what level of Equipment Upgrade is currently being applied and what other levels grant (albeit grayed out so it's clear that they are not currently being applied). Examples of tooltips with the various Mobile Infantry:

    Marine with EU Level 1
    Equipment Upgrade: Marine
    Level 1: Stimpack no longer costs health.
    Level 2: GPR-12 gains 0.5 splash radius.
    Level 3: Increases Fragmentation Grenade's damage to 100 +30 vs Light.

    Marksman with EU Level 2
    Equipment Upgrade: Marksman
    Level 1 – Grants "Dance!" ability.
    Level 2 – Increases Marksman sight range by 3 and weapon range by 3.
    Level 3 – Improves the Smoke grenade’s slow to 30%.

    Flamethrower with EU Level 3
    Equipment Upgrade: Flamethrower
    Level 1 – Grants "Hotfoot" ability.
    Level 2 – Increases Flamethrower armor by 4.
    Level 3 – Improves the Incendiary Grenade’s radius to 3, increases the damage over time to 12, and increases the attack speed slow to 20%.

    As you can see, even if the player does not have the appropriate level of Equipment Upgrade, they can still see what upgrades they can get later by checking that notifier . This is to reduce the amount of clutter in the ability tree itself, considering that EU directly effects nine different things on three different units (11 with NOTD2 and the Corpsman).

    WEAPON MODS
    Yes, weapon mods apply to the minis, but only at a 50% rate. I.E., if you take 5% bonus damage, the minis get 2.5% bonus damage.
  2. Shooz
    • Donator

    Shooz NOTD Staff: Killjoy

    I like the changes to the tree. The idea here is to make it so that teams want a FO with infantry on their team and this is the spec that will quell their cries for change.
  3. Ability
    • Development Team
    • NOTD Creator

    Ability NOTD Creator

    Overall, I agree. Keeps it more skill based and FO will have to make a bit more choices on levelling.
  4. Kith
    • Development Team
    • Designer

    Kith NOTD Staff: Anti-Fun Wizard Skeleton

    I'm putting this in NOTD Disc. for the time being so it gets a little more traffic, considering that people have been asking me for a "fix" to the FO's minis (and also there was that problem with the whole "killing minis competition" BS that popped up).
  5. ImaDomo
    • Donator

    ImaDomo Clad In Armour

    Nice job Kith I like the changes, so when are these changes going to be implemented? A rough estimate would be nice and I'm concern over 1 thing only once ppl get the TSG which is like a stinger, it would be a calling to all trolls.
  6. Kith
    • Development Team
    • Designer

    Kith NOTD Staff: Anti-Fun Wizard Skeleton

    I do not know. You would have to ask Arcane about that. Aside from bugfixes and boss updates, as far as I know, the Mobcon is next in line. However, since the emergent problem has been people engaging in teamkilling due to the FO's issues, he may get bumped up on the priority list.

    Either way, the thread is going to sit and gather feedback for a week or two before it's finalized. Let people comment on it and give feedback and ect.
  7. Nymous

    Nymous Member

    Might swap the level 1 and level 2 of equipment upgrade. Since currently, if I understand right, you need to have level 2 of Mob Inf to get the 1st ability and thus have the level 1 of equipment become useful. Whereas if you switch the passive bonuses to 1 and the (upgraded stimpack?) to level 2 then you can put 1 point into both and have it useful right off the bat. Otherwise, looks fun.
  8. Kith
    • Development Team
    • Designer

    Kith NOTD Staff: Anti-Fun Wizard Skeleton

    I did it that way for a reason - if the player plans on rushing specialist effectiveness, they must do so at the cost of the Marine's abilities.
  9. vexxenon

    vexxenon Well-Known Member

    Fragmentation Grenades, Incendiary Grenades, Rocket launchers... Well, at least FOs have to make a conscious effort to whore, which by those aoe skills, seems pretty easy. How are xp gained by minis shared with rest of team? Perhaps that needs to be looked at. For example, if xp gained by FO minis were shared at a higher %, im sure less ppl would be bitching about the whorness of them.

    But then again, when compare to arty, arty still wins at holding down the mob.
  10. Kith
    • Development Team
    • Designer

    Kith NOTD Staff: Anti-Fun Wizard Skeleton

    Arty will not be as sustainable, though. The Forward Observer's starting shell count will be reduced to 600 once the arty portion of things gets worked on. The Infantry will be able to do this all the time, forever. Assuming their Mobile Infantry don't die, of course. Infantry can also cover for the Orderthrower, assuming the player wants to instead play Pyro and contribute to the all-important DPS numbers.

    People bitch about the "whoreness" of them because they're permanent DPS boosts that do not need to be microed and have a habit of just stealing kills all game (especially the Marksmen with their enormous base damage). Considering that I'm removing a lot of their basic killing power with this, it's a lot easier to avoid whoring and a lot harder to whore.
  11. vexxenon

    vexxenon Well-Known Member

    It'll be new types of whoreness, the skills I've listed are aoe, which may or may not be spammable, last time you had skill that does aoe kills, you can level up fairly quickly. From combatrofl nades which are almost spammable, to few others. If we're talking about weapon damage, then look no further than Sting, which gets ppl from level 6-9 in few shots under right conditions. Maybe you can give us bit more info on the rocket launcher?
  12. Niktos

    Niktos Well-Known Member

    Vexx skills stats are there in the spoiler (dmg,cd,aoe).
    It will give fo means to whore but it isn't bad thing. It will need atention and finally some skill.

    Skill that at current mob inf fo does not exist. Given how ppl at the moment just get damn mm's and never bother to holdfire or at least focus dangerous mobs just killsteal forever you can have two situations during holdout:
    1.Fo that sits at comp to do manual reloads and use skill of minis.
    2.Fo that goes to take a shower and puts a rock on 'q' that is shortcut to mini mm skill.
    Results won't differ much, sure in first case fo will get even more kills but from team point of view it's same. There is not a single other class that can do it, well maybe med can be half afk if mobs get reduced to a pulp efficiently so noone takes dmg.

    I fully support such changes. For me it will still be arty fo or no fo tho.
  13. ComradeHX

    ComradeHX Well-Known Member

    So basically FO has to control his own mini squad?

    Will all lower-level(spammable?) damaging abilities(frag grenade, Dance, Incendiary grenade) + smoke grenade(since that may be used as part of escape tool) be merged onto same command card when FO and all his marines are selected at same time?
  14. Kith
    • Development Team
    • Designer

    Kith NOTD Staff: Anti-Fun Wizard Skeleton

    No, they will not. The player will have to tab through the various units.
  15. RoboMonkey

    RoboMonkey Well-Known Member

    Oi.. as the Forward Observer Mobile Infantry Master/Maniac/Enthusiast.. I hereby approve of this new Forward Observer *Stamps seal on the new FO and shatters champagne bottle on the side*

    I just wish I could be there to break it in... oh well.. back to trying to find a new comp.
  16. Kith
    • Development Team
    • Designer

    Kith NOTD Staff: Anti-Fun Wizard Skeleton

    Now that it's gotten the appropriate traffic, scooting this back to Class Discussion.
  17. Firescout

    Firescout New Member

    After reviewing the FO and all its problems with it I came with the conclusion that its screw ups went to 3 levels, the Lore of the FO, its Intent and its Execution. why do I said that? I will explain in a moment and came up with the solution, of which you can only choose only 1 among the 3 solutions and work from there(also I took the trouble to review this just to help you out: http://notdstarcraft.com/threads/ki...ice-in-apollo-a-guide-to-creating-classes.62/)

    Lore:

    Refer to this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forward_observers_in_the_U.S._military
    long story short, the FO directs indirect fire to where he wants to. The problem?
    his job is too specific and therefore creates problems on what the direction of the second Tree he should go to. This problem falls into the category of this:

    Solution at this level: Take the entire class out for a rework based on lore, in its place a interim class from the existing pools will be used. if need be the FO may be cull and a new class be create(Best solution, but eats up a lot of development time)


    Intent:

    With such a limited job scope, the FO ended up having 2 trees that is focused on DPS. One of which stays faithful to the job scope, the other becomes "WTF is this shit? dumping minis on the ground!". not only that, the Mini tree encroaches on other classes capabilities and therefore pushing the limits(the arty FO tree, on the other hand, has a AoE disabler skill in his AoE DPS stable. you can argue about AMM having AoE disabler skill in his tree but he only has single target DPS skills). which brings the problem into the category of this:

    and this:

    and of course this:

    Solution at this level: take out the entire Mobile Infantry talent tree. Rework the intention of the tree and work based on that direction(feasible, but results in many butthurts and manly tears shed)


    Execution:

    But wait! there's more! now with a Lore and Intent problems stack together, Execution based on the direction of the 2 has bring it to a new level of screwed up class we be seeing now. and since it is a problem based from the top, whatever we are trying to do is nothing more than using glass paper and trying to clean up a natural disaster. it can be done, but its is still a aftermath of a natural disaster. implementing skills for that tree now becomes a problem like:

    Solution at this level: need to work on the skill part, balance them properly or even the minis themselves(arguably the easiest solution among the 3)

    so now I have laid upon you, 3 possible solution, one choice. you can take them, or leave it now as it is and find a solution better than mine.

    (as a side note: somebody get rid of Otis or give him a good butt stroke to his brain! his screwing the mind of Kith)
  18. Arturia

    Arturia Well-Known Member

    Your argument is bad about this one. And I mean very bad. Just remember, NOTD has some really absurd shit.

    Technicians are totally people that modified their suit from a maintenance suit into a full-blown tank that can handle a nuclear missile.

    Lets not leave out the fact that we have some Psychic Expert known as Psi Ops that just can't really be explained except as "Its space magic and drugs, I aint gotta explain shit".

    The entire intent behind what Kithrixx said was essentially "Ayy dawg. I've seen enough stupid shit. Most of the stupid shit comes from the fact that you wanna throw Berserkers and Barbarians into a space zombie shooter and that just does not work. So stop trying to use Protoss & Zerg to bring in that type of shit." Essentially, we had a <lot> of people suggesting a <lot> of stupid things. Either player's as heavy-duty machines that for one reason or another were Ivax: Pilotable edition or Barbarians, Rouges, and Berserkers: Protoss Edition.

    It keeps things human, and at the same time eliminates all of the stupid Dungeon Crawler classes people wanted to have. You're trying to read too deeply into things. I can "think deep" about something as much as I want, but it doesn't matter if that wasn't the intention. Sometimes you're just looking for meaning where there is none.

    So what mechanic is being broken / undermined? Saying that something is broken does nothing when you don't tell us what is broken. I can scream and shot out and let it all out that the White House has a critical structural defect that could cause it to collapse on itself, but unless I point it out, I'm just an obnoxious conspiracy guy, a terrorist, or mentally disabled and extremely anti-government. If I don't point it out what the problem is, it is likely to be disregarded unless I'm some extremely reputable person in that field who is closely associated with architecture and worked on the White House.

    There is a huge difference between saying that there is a problem, and saying what the problem is.

    Yeah, we know; the reloading issue but we can't really fix that: there just isn't a way for them to actually ever have to reload.

    But casting that aside (because a solution may appear for that later down the line), what gameplay mechanic is Forward Observer undermining?

    I'll wait for your answer on that (hopefully its not some stupid shit saying FO is OP or something).

    So, which classes role does FO enroach upon? By design, his role is DPS in the DPS story line of explosions and destruction. He certainly isn't replacing medic. If you want to consider the fact that mini's can be meatshields, then I guess you can say he's replacing the tank but that is just as valid as saying Recon can replace a tank because of Reflexes allowing him to dodge attacks.

    I can't think of any role infringements that the FO has, unless you want to consider the fact that he gets a "specialized" zoo compared to Field Engineer's broad-purpose Zombie Zoo. But even then, their Zoo's are completely different; the FO has a limited capacity for how big his Zoo can become and what his Zoo can be used for; Engineer's Zoo can become as big as time permits as well as be used to tank / distract enemies (the FO's mini troupe shouldn't be used as meat shields).

    So, tell us: What classes is Forward Observer enroaching upon, and how is he enroaching upon them?

    I'm not sure you understand the concept of Doing the same job a different way. On one end, he's dropping bombs and shit for AoE with most of the work centralized on the FO; on the other end he's calling in support with most of the work given to the mini's who have skills to deal with large amounts of enemies. Both accomplish the same job of AoE support and Crowd Suppression, but both approach it through different methods and that is what Kith's quote means.



    Overall, I don't think you understand too much what goes into a class. If you have a class designed for one single role, the two tree's are alternative approaches to accomplishing the same end. It feels like you're being a tad too egotistical in your post, and I know I ended up being too egotistical in mine.

    Lore is an afterthought of what is added; it is used to justify the skills of the class. Lore isn't the direct basis of where the class comes from. You think of some neat things, then fill it in with Lore.

    Even Wikipedia gives some basis to the idea of FO controlling / working with a few soldiers.

    FO teams are often attached to Mechanized infantry dismounted teams. In this scenario they break off with small infantry teams and travel on foot as light infantry and search for the enemy. They can also break off in two man teams and establish an observation post.

    It is only a matter of mechanics that we don't give him the infantry at the start; it is something he can do but it isn't a pounded into stone type of thing.

    Lore for a class is just an added touch. Besides, what makes you think that the future NOTD takes place in has the same exact system and roles as our modern world does?

    The "intent" that went behind the class is Heavy DPS. In case you have forgotten, Alpha Company is the DPS story line. Intent is essentially, what do I want this class to accomplish? What do I want this class to do? For Forward Observer, his role is to be the DPS and power that is needed for the team to survive the heavy waves in Alpha Company. As such, he was designed around being able to combat heavy waves of enemies.

    As far as Execution goes; it worked well initially, but problems appeared in the fact that the Mobile Infantry tree was exceedingly passive compared to what it was intended to be. Originally, Mobile Infantry was supposed to be micro-intensive, but as the Mini's got many passive boosts, it took a turn down passive lane and didn't require too much. It may as well have been a MMM bio-ball.

    Please, realize what the current state is and compare it to what the intended state was.

    Mobile Infantry was intended to be micro-intensive but it isn't because of how passive the DPS is from the Mini's. It required minimal effort to achieve a high level of power, and was just too powerful because of that. Most of its power came from readily switching out for the situation which almost ensured that a full benefit could be gained from the mini's shooting. The rework is intended to bring them away from being weapon-based DPS and more into Ability-based DPS.

    You did not give a solution in the manner you think you did. You're saying "Do this" but your "Do this" is very broad. It is like an English Teacher telling the students to "Write Better" because their writing sucks. It does not help fix the problem. Your solution is the same.

    You're saying "Make a better skill tree" but you hardly say what is wrong with the current skill tree, and as such, it is impossible to make a better skill tree.

    I'm going to shit on your "solutions" now because I've became an angry SOB.

    No. NOTD has enough problems from "temp fixes". Alpha Company isn't a "completed" story-line. It hasn't been polished enough. Taking out one of the exclusive Alpha Company classes fucks up balance like none other.

    You propose to remove FO to rework it, but you don't say "how" to rework it. You just say "Fix this" and don't saying anything that tells him how to fix it. You fucked up hard anyways when you said that it should be reworked based on lore. http://notdstarcraft.com/threads/new-class-idea-the-arms-dealer.1493/ is an example of working from lore to make a class. If you try to make a class from its Lore, you end up creating an abominable mess of skills that are usually excessively powerful. The actual strength of a nuke is something that could wipe out an entire city, but for balance's sake, Commando's nuke is essentially a bigger and more powerful satchel with a larger casting range but has a bigger cooldown and energy cost to make up for its power as well as being a Tier 3 skill.

    Rework it into what direction? Everything you said is "This is broken" but you do not explain the most important part of "How it is broken".

    Removing the entire tree will accomplish NOTHING. So we take out the skill tree. Now What? We get stuck at a complete stand-still. You say to rework it into the direction of the intention but you do not say what the "intention" is that we need to rework it towards.

    You say that the Mobile Infantry enroaches on other classes, but you still don't say how. You're like the person trying to sue / imprison another person for trespassing onto your property, but you don't have any proof or evidence that the other person trespassed onto your property. Until you give evidence or proof, your claims have no validity.


    You say Balance them Properly, but just what does that mean? It means nothing. It is a stupid way of saying "fix this".

    Lets say there is an artist I know, and he is displaying his work. While with the artist and viewing his work, I criticize his work and saying things such as "I don't like the look of it", "It looks ugly", "Make your art prettier" and "Make it look less revolting".

    Now, if this artist doesn't kick my ass, then he must have a high level of patience.

    For one, I didn't even help him understand what is wrong. All I said is that this is wrong, but I didn't give him any help in fixing what is wrong. It isn't constructive criticism, he isn't going to magically create better art after hearing what I said. Unless I tell him what the problem is he won't be able to fix it.

    It would be much more beneficial for him if I told him things such as "The colors used in this section are spreading and discoloring the other parts", "The contrast in this area is too high", and "The colors in this portion of the work do not mix in with the other parts of the work". That way, he knows what the problem is and can act to fix it.

    You only say that there is a problem, but you do not highlight the problem or bring it to light. You say "need to work on the skill part" but in what way do they need to be worked on? Do they need to become more powerful, or do they need to become weaker? Do they need to accomplish something else or are they fine as is? You're too vague.

    Say what the problem is; don't offer a half-assed solution that doesn't even tell what it is fixing. You need to bring the problems to light so that the developer can fix those problems. Your "solutions" have been nothing more than vague words saying to do a vague action.

    Vague words saying to do a vague action do nothing to help and cannot be counted on to be a solution as they fail to specify the details when the details are what make the biggest difference.

    The problem this rework is trying to fix is the fact that the Mobile Infantry Forward Observer has extreme amounts of DPS with little effort being invested. Mobile Infantry Forward Observer is too passive, and this rework is to fix that aspect of it.


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    NOTE for Kithrixx: Mind telling us how long Smoke Grenade lasts?
  19. Kith
    • Development Team
    • Designer

    Kith NOTD Staff: Anti-Fun Wizard Skeleton

    Smoke grenade lasts for 15 seconds. My apologies. I'll get to Firescout's post in a moment.
  20. Kith
    • Development Team
    • Designer

    Kith NOTD Staff: Anti-Fun Wizard Skeleton

    Hello friend.

    I love it when people tell me how to do my job.

    You have already fucked up. The UGC is not the US Military.

    Refer to my previous statement. Also, there's nothing "between the lines", that is 100% meant to be taken at face value. I mentioned models specifically for a reason. Note how I mention physiology, and also mention that mechanical things can be passed off. That is specifically talking about the visual aesthetic of NOTD, and nothing else. I could very easily rewrite the Commando into a Kerrigan-based model with crazy psychic powers to justify the abilities. You notice how I say that NOTD is about Marines? Yeah. That's what it's about.

    Actually, Arty FO is based on something called "crowd control". Crowd control refers specifically to massive damage in an area. The Arty FO is crap (or at the very least, unwieldy) Boss DPS because it's difficult to place his skills in such a way that they deal damage to bosses but not deal damage to allies. The Explo Demo and the Deso Chem have the same problem; great against mobs, not great against bosses. The OpsMando is so valuable because he is both - he's enormous Boss DPS because of Surg/Adren and he's got crowd control via the Nukes. Infantry FO (at least, the one in this rework) is still crowd control but with a dash of utility and an entirely different method of implementation. Whereas the Arty FO is "selfish" and all of his power is focused on him (calling down strikes, ect), the Inf FO is the opposite and all of his power is focused on bettering his Mobile Infantry.

    Also, although Arturia pointed it out pretty well, this bears repeating: Forward Observers are not just strictly artillery spotters. Especially in the context of the UGC, the Mobile Infantry FO is lore-compliant because UGC Forward Observers serve the overarching role of battlefield surveillance (almost as if they're OBSERVING a FORWARD position) and direction of resources. Sometimes the resources are artillery and sometimes they are infantry forces. Neither are the proper answer to every solution, and it's up to the FO in question to make that decision.

    The minis do not use the inventory system, no, but they cannot be augmented by items either, so it's a fair trade. I could theoretically put in an ammo/reload system based on energy, but I will only worry about that if the minis' dps is too high (spoilers: it won't be, all three weapons have their own significant drawbacks).

    Also, yes, the "mini medic" idea was shot down by me because the idea was presented to me in a different context, with a different skillset. In the context of NOTD, a "mini medic" for the Forward Observer would be too powerful because Tier 3 is relatively easy to obtain in Alpha Company - with the presence of Sheng's Boys and so many disables, a Field Aid Medic is often a moot point if the Infested reach the team early on. If the "mini medic" were present in NOTD, it would be easy for the resident Medic to go Nano (or completely forego a Medic for more DPS) and just rely on the Forward Observer's mini medic to handle boo-boos that can't be cured by Bandages or Medkits.

    However, in NOTD2 (which it's noted that the skill is "NOTD2 only" multiple times), a "mini medic" will not be unreasonable or overpowered. For one, all classes will be available to play - no more being restricted to various storylines. This means that there will be overlap by default, which is actually a good thing because that means I have more creative freedom in creating classes. Multiple tanks will be available, and so will multiple crowd control and DPS and casters and so on and so forth, so it's not as big of a deal to allow a character to tread on the Medic's ground in that context. Other characters will have a defensive or healing Variant Tier 3 available to them to add variety to team makeup, it's not going to be just the Forward Observer.

    Yes, it is imbalanced. That's the point of the rework - to make it less imbalanced.

    Actually, the AoEs are not what is causing the problem. The problem is coming directly from the Mobile Infantry having too much passive power. Considering that you have to cycle through three (four?) different units, all with different skillsets and attack ranges and utilities, I'd say that's mutually exclusive enough.

    Hahahahahaha. No. You have not supplied anything even close to an adequate reason for removal of the Infantry Support.

    The Frag Grenade is essentially the Rifleman's Grenade, yes, but it will feature travel time and does not increase in damage with level (nor can it crit). Incin Grenade does not persist in an area like Napalm, the DOT is only applied to the units struck by the initial explosion. Big Sting is a direct damage with an armor shred. That "rule" was created to prevent low effort submissions. If I really wanted to, I could compare most abilities present in NOTD to one another. Psi Tempest is Contaminate, but channeled. March of the Machine is Time to Die without the damage pulses. I'm Your Father is a better Taunt. Monofilament Traps are the damage version of Sonic Traps. I could go on, but I won't. But I could.

    Besides having absolutely nothing to do with the thing that you quoted, 8 armor is not going to make the Mobile Infantry Flamethrower more tanky than the actual Flamethrower class. The Flamethrower class features more hitpoints, more shields, and the ability to pick up a Riot Shield and any armor that he wants. The MI Flamethrower is an off-tank; he's there so you have a viable tank option if your Flamethrower decides to go Pyro rather than Order. He can replace the Orderflamer if done properly, but that takes a significant amount of skill considering that he doesn't have access to Smite, Vengeance, Reactive Armor, ect.

    They are balanced properly.

    Not a single one of your arguments has been valid, so... yeah, if it's all the same to you, I'll leave it as it is.

    Otis is as Otis does.

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