Forward Observer QQ

Discussion in 'Class Discussion' started by Kith, Feb 16, 2014.

  1. Kith
    • Development Team
    • Designer

    Kith NOTD Staff: Anti-Fun Wizard Skeleton

    Because I am absolutely willing to change my mind about things, as I have done many times in the past. I am not, however, willing to bend over backwards over some poorly made arguments by people who insult me and my ability to do my job.

    Yeah, no. I took special care to listen to the people that I knew for sure unlocked the FO.

    Actually, you did by bringing it up.

    Check your inbox.
  2. Commlink
    • Development Team
    • Modeler

    Commlink Programmer/Asset Designer

    I just want to point this out again cause people seem to have trouble reading or grasping this concept unless its something posted by kith.

    This is an NOTD 2 classes thread not an FO NOTD rework thread, you guys are all free to have a pissing contest up and down this thread about how fo should work in notd, but and i say this again cause there is always one or two who have trouble understanding. This is for NOTD2 a game/unit in which you have not even played or touched yet, giving it your all, firing your guns at kith won't do much. If you have a problem with how the fo works in NOTD yes thats NOTD 1 the fo that your all commenting on ether find the correct thread and post there or make one of your own.

    Tired of coming onto forums everyday to check stuff and all i see is bashing kith over the notd 1 version of the fo. So suddenly you had a brainstorm, woke up one morning saw the notd 2 proposed version and thought you know what im going to highjack that thread until it becomes about notd and how the fo should work.. gg

    Stay on topic and keep it civil, and for love of god go post in the correct thread and actually leave this thread to notd2 Classes.

    class discussion
    kiths forward observer rework
  3. Grevious

    Grevious Member

    the first half is a definite....I just had a short lived discussion with Robomonkey about whether or not arty FO has usefulness in surv. The general thought to FO is "FO is just spamming shit" = FM upon FM upon FM = why everyone says its taking away xp. sure if you just throw shells around. but if you do a 1-3/2-2/1 build and only use shockwave or AS every now and then when the horde sizes are right then the team still levels just fine.....not so much the FO....but that's an acceptable sacrifice in my book....just give him an l3 or something to help him level by other means.


    About realism......in actuality, an FO also plays the part of a scout as well as being able to call in the big guns on a target. however, seeing as the Recon pretty much fills the scout role very well, the FO needs something else to do. Being an FO isn't just slinging around shells to selfish means or just so things die...it takes planning, precision, and coordination.

    All of which is never done. Ive asked once if an acnm team wanted Stun or DPS to try and coordinate and pretty much just got "stared" at funny. (yes I broke the arty builds into sub builds)
  4. Grevious

    Grevious Member


    I actually thought about doing this......
  5. Lord NiteShade
    • Wiki Founder
    • Community Leader

    Lord NiteShade NOTD Staff: Wiki Founder/TeamSpeak Admin

    Take action then. If I was still moderator I would have sliced this thread in half 3 pages ago. You have no one to blame the off topic nature on but yourselves. Poor moderation and discussion is the fault of moderators and staff, not the end user.
  6. Commlink
    • Development Team
    • Modeler

    Commlink Programmer/Asset Designer

    Yeah im a dev not a mod my privileges are given to me for dev work only, but please make a thread and i'll happily discuss my standing just not in this thread.

    Carry on.
  7. squish

    squish Well-Known Member

    That's the thing about Kithrixx. He actually encourages discussion of any kind, even potentially volatile, as long as it actually gets somewhere. If I come in like "LOLOLOLOLOL NOPE DADING" he's gonna banhammer my ass before Shooz could even reach for his. Anyways - back on topic:

    Kithrixx, you may or may not have thought this aspect out entirely, but - why give something like TSG a 2 minute cooldown when it's "just" a thousand damage? For a tier 3 that's.... underwhelming. I'm taking a bit of stuff from NotD1 here, yes, but bear with me here: At what point does "just" a thousand damage become too little? It's why OSOK was reworked into what it is today. For example: "just" a thousand damage is peanuts against a boss such as seth or Eos or even erebos in nightmare compared to a class like the commando. Seth and Eos especially, given that they have well into above 250 THOUSAND health.

    Perhaps you could work a skill into the MI FO at Dogs of War: Reset cooldowns of minis, 60 energy off of main char, no cooldown for that. Gives an aspect of energy management to a side of the class that has no energy management once minis are out, and adds more capability to a class that's lacking
  8. Grevious

    Grevious Member

    I must learn more *bows*

    haha in all seriousness, I would have to agree....with what I can understand anyway, seeings as I couldn't tell you what class does what for dmg with what ability from other than what is in said ability description.

    Honestly the only real issues im seeing are:

    A)the tree: other than calling down minis its nothing but passive effects which could be fixed by adding some sort of energy depletion....hell.....make dogs of war like a group wide stim pack that lasts for 30 seconds or something as well as the passive side. (and by group wide I mean minis as well as any team that are close by)
    Dmg output could be like 10/15/20% increase that stacks with all AOE abilities that deal dmg with a 15/20/25% attack speed boost.

    Overpowered? possibly.....however theres a suggestion.

    anything else seems more the opinions of the players.
  9. Kith
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    • Designer

    Kith NOTD Staff: Anti-Fun Wizard Skeleton

    While it is "just" a thousand damage, the units in question are also equipped with guns and are more than likely using them. For each Rifleman the player is using instead of a specialist, that's an additional thousand available to them. If they have a Marksman, that's a permanent (assuming they're on top of their game) application of -5 armor, which can produce way more than a thousand damage assuming the team equips to take advantage of that. The Flamer mini will also more than likely be in the boss's business tanking with Shield Buster and getting the absolute most out of the Flamethrower and its more-damage-with-more-proximity and the damage over time from Hotfoot before its stun goes off, which is also likely to mean more damage capacity. This was not factoring in the grenades available to the infantry either, so there's an additional 100 damage every 25 seconds from the Rifleman, 135 every 30 from the Flamer, and a healthy 30% movement and attack speed slow from the Marksman (which can be up to 60% if they decide to stop screwing with Big Sting and instead focus on Dance!).

    I honestly believe that people aren't looking at the IS FO in the proper light, because the sum of the parts doesn't seem very underwhelming to me at all.

    Anyways.

    If it comes down to being underpowered, I will consider reviving Dogs of War in that capacity.
  10. Nicarco
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    • Donator

    Nicarco Warden

    One problem I think a few people are talking about is that the minis don't scale effectively with both game time and difficulty.

    What this basically means is that because all mini abilities and weapons are flat damage, it is hard to balance them so that they are not completely overpowered early and yet have a significant effect late.
    Most classes do not have this problem because they have % based increases/decreases to either outgoing or incoming damage (such as taunts or something like the commando with surgical strike) and therefore are able to boost higher damage weapons found later in the game more than starting weapons earlier in the game. Imagine if, for example, surgical strike added a flat +20 damage instead of increasing damage by 50% at first level. This would be amazing on the gprs and early game enemies, but falls off significantly vs the current surgical strike when using things such as the nuke. This is similar to what the FO does when he calls down a marine mini, he gains extra damage output from the mini's gpr. (Not counting abilities for now).

    Other classes in NOTD also have or had this problem. The explosives demolitions, who's mines take a lot of kills early but can't do much late, the pre-rework assassination marksman, who's osok once again, was great in recruit but lacking in nm games, and the combat rifleman, who's grenades need to scale with level (and is boosted by bloodlust and focus fire, unless this isn't true, at which point it's just the level scaling that matters), as well as gaining a percentage boost vs light units. I feel that the mini's abilities have this problem. They are flat damage, which means that they will destroy the zombie hordes early in the game, when everyone is still low level, but then become increasingly less useful simply because you cannot increase the damage anymore without making the early game even more trivial and stealing a lot of xp from the team. The mini's defensive stats are for the same reason, unable to scale with the game because then early game they can tank everything, while late game they are basically paper.

    The fact that the stronger abilities are added with T3 might help with the scaling issue, but the problem that the basic marines do not get boosted in anyway from FO's t2 abilities means that they will be weakest in the mid game before the FO gets his t3. No other class really has this problem, if only because most of the other classes do no have trees dedicated to pets (the combat engy with the x1 is an exception, but his x1 gets boosts from his t2 abilities). With the addition of flamer and marksman minis though, this problem could be solved, I don't really know enough about NOTD 2 to see if this completely solves that problem though.

    It used to be that nm runs were never done with an assassination marksman, simply because osok failed to kill or significantly damage the priority targets (namely, agrons) throughout the game, even at level 3. After the change, assassination mms were given significant scaling on their level 3 osok, which allowed them to deal large amounts of damage and gave their ability more meaning, so that the class could actually accomplish its intended purpose, dealing large amounts of damage and killing large targets, in nm games. At the same time, assassination marksman was completely viable in recruit, because you could deal significant damage to priority targets simply because they had less health. Increasing the damage of osok, therefore, would have made them overpowered in other difficulties just to make it viable in nm games. So therefore, osok level 3 was given the ability to instantly kill non heroics and deal significant damage to bosses based on current health, one way to make it strong in higher difficulty games without making it too strong in lower difficulty ones.

    This of course, is in the context of the current game, for all I know, NOTD 2 scaling with difficulty and time might be completely different. But, I think, if it is similar, it may be best to introduce some sort of percentage modifier to the minis so that they do not suffer from the flat damage problem.

    For example, the flamethrower mini, who's purpose is to be an off-tank, could get some % based damage reduction at some point in his tree. This will help make sure that he stays relevant as an off-tank without increasing his ability to tank early and in low difficulties significantly. Similarly, if the mm could get some % based armor reduction in addition to his flat armor reduction, this will help him shred later, higher armored targets significantly better as well (unless there are no high armor targets in NOTD 2, at which point you can ignore this point). His Dance ability is very useful in this regard, useful against all enemies and bosses simply because it is % decrease in damage instead of flat. Perhaps the marine mini grenades and rockets could scale with FO level, partially to increase their scaling throughout the game and also to make FO levels more significant (like the combat rifleman). Maybe then, the rockets could deal +25% damage vs armored or grenades deal +50% vs light or something instead of the flat bonuses currently in place. Perhaps the rockets can add some sort of slowing effect to make them more than just plain damage (currently the marine mini is really just plain damage, no utility at all), although that may be the desirable effect, at which point change is unnecessary. Some abilities that always scale are utilities such as stuns and slows, % based abilities such as damage reduction or damage increases, and other, non combat abilities such as restoring energy, health, or giving vision. Adding more of these abilities into the FO minis could significantly increase their ability to be relevant in all modes and all times without increasing early and low level power.

    You're welcome to completely disregard my suggestions in favour of the current tree, but this is the way I feel FO mini tree can be made more relevant for both higher difficulties and game times without excessive power in other times/modes. I'm not an expert on FO, but from seeing trends in the changes made to make other classes relevant, this is what I think would be best for the tree to solve one major problem people seem to be having.
  11. Grevious

    Grevious Member

    Since that suggestion Is out there let me refine it a bit....it would either:

    A) have an energy cost of 45-50 with a xD of 45-60 seconds that effects friendlies within area 4-6 with 20% attack speed with a 15% dm increase

    Or

    B) have an energy cost of 45 cd 30-45 seconds and apply only to the minis in the forward observer's command effecting them with 25% attack speed and 20% dmg increase.

    Also...I'd suggest giving all minis a inventory size of 2 so they could carry supplies otherwise missed simply because of grabbing everything that may be useful or something as simple as not dropping what isn't needed (poor inventory management) which would give them all a small % more of the "utility" you're going for.
    Last edited: Feb 21, 2014
  12. Eagle 11

    Eagle 11 Well-Known Member

    Y'all doing it wrong, initiate the steehl rain,become the emprahs fury.
  13. squish

    squish Well-Known Member

    Go play Red Alert 2.... And Yuri's Revenge.
  14. Grevious

    Grevious Member

    Hey.....those are good games >.>
  15. Kith
    • Development Team
    • Designer

    Kith NOTD Staff: Anti-Fun Wizard Skeleton

    The problem with scaling with difficulty is that it makes higher difficulties... well, less difficult. A lot of the scaling-to-difficulty stuff for NOTD was implemented as a stop-gap measure to make classes more useful without overhauling them entirely.

    The only class that will be retaining its scaling is the Assassination Marksman because of the nature of OSOK.
  16. Nicarco
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    Nicarco Warden

    There is a limit though, at which point something without scaling becomes completely useless at a higher difficulty.

    If minis had only 30 hp, then they could quite plausibly be used in recruit with good micro, but at the same time, it would be nearly impossible for them to survive for any reasonable amount of time if zombies get things such as charge and deal enough damage to one shot them.

    What I'm suggesting is not to make the higher difficulties any less difficult, but to give the minis an increase in power proportional to the difficulty. Like, you wouldn't change a demotank's 45% damage reduction taunt and make it reduce all attacks by a flat 10 damage instead simply because the 45% reduction would make nm easier would you? A 45% damage reduction is effective at all levels. A flat 10 damage reduction may be an effective 50% reduction vs recruit zombies but be insignificant vs high sr or nightmare mode zombies. Just because a taunt would reduce more damage in nm than in recruit does not make nm any less difficult than recruit, in fact, it would simply make using taunt actually viable.

    Now, if you made NOTD 2 in a way such that you can make taunt reduce flat damage rather than % based damage and still make it viable in both recruit and nm, then the problem of flat numbers being added to FO minis isn't really a problem for NOTD 2 either. However, if you need to keep such scaling with damage systems in NOTD 2 as well, giving the minis some scaling (if that is the right word) is one way to make the minis viable in higher difficulty games. Not by giving them more health or damage with difficulty, but increasing their viability in different difficulties by adding some sort of % based buff or debuff.
  17. Kith
    • Development Team
    • Designer

    Kith NOTD Staff: Anti-Fun Wizard Skeleton

    Making the minis becomes stronger or weaker will make them unlike any other class (with the exception of AMM who as I mentioned is a special case). The entire point of a higher difficulty is providing a larger challenge without changing the tools that the players have available to them. If the minis turn out to be too weak, I will examine giving the FO a better Tier 3 or giving them more actives. Granting them more actives will make them stronger on the whole, but will make them take more skill to get the most out of, so I'm fine with increasing their overall strength in such a manner.
  18. Nicarco
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    Nicarco Warden

    If you feel that in this way, FO can be viable in all game modes and difficulties (or feel that that's not a necessary part of the kit), then there's no problem. Just a suggestion in case this doesn't turn out to be the case.
  19. Niktos

    Niktos Well-Known Member

    RIP Smite, as this is only thing scalling to difficulty besides osok. (rest of scalling is based either on player lvl/gun, or his performance. do point out if i missed anything)

    But we DO get less ammo as difficulty rises, ammo is a tool in my book. Or is this mechanic going to go too?







    I also remembered one thing, it kind of works as argument towards fo sharing energy pool with minis or at least mini abilities being reworked towards energy dependence (with their own personal energy bars).
    You outlined 2 new enemy types
    Show Spoiler

    "ZOMBIE"
    Tesla – Artsoliope
    150 Base health
    Detection: 5
    Drains 1 energy/sec in a radius of 8
    Short Circuit on hit
    Charge


    "AIRBORNE"
    Corona – Spore Ray (Zerus Alien Tree Hover)
    Detection: 4
    Drains 1 energy/sec in a radius of 8
    -50% movement speed

    And here mini fo is a magical fairy that gives 0 shit about both of them.
  20. Nicarco
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    • Donator

    Nicarco Warden

    Smite has always been a problematic ability though, with an inability to kill enemies on someone who could really use the xp, as well as being either really good or bad on bosses depending on how reduced the effect is. If it is reworked into a better ability there shouldn't be a problem.

    As for the energy problem, I think the minis will get energy bars that, under normal circumstances will allow them to use their abilities on cooldown (With the possible exception of after using shield buster, which inflicts sc as well), but will be affected by the energy draining creatures. If anything, FO would be more affected than any other marine, as his effective energy (that on his minis) will be drained 3 times as fast due to being 3 units instead of 1.

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