Forward Observer QQ

Discussion in 'Class Discussion' started by Kith, Feb 16, 2014.

  1. Arturia

    Arturia Well-Known Member

    I think its very obvious that the DPS Increase is very situational. If the Forward Observer had no weapon and never shot, then spawned 3 mini's with GPR's, his DPS went from 0 to some non-zero value, and I could make the bullshit claim that the DPS increase was over 9000% because it is true. Even if you multiplied his 0 DPS by 90, it still would not reflect his DPS change from having and not having mini-rines.

    Likewise, if the Forward Observer is using say, the HMG, then the Mini-AR's aren't a 300% increase.

    Hell, against a target with 15 armor, the damage increase is nothing. If you had a 300% damage increase, you would be doing 45 damage to that enemy. Instead, you're doing 0.5 x 4 damage. You're simply hitting an enemy 4 times instead of 1 - while it is a damage increase, its a very awkward one.

    Rather than being so cryptic, why don't you enlighten us of the Forward Observer's Excellence?

    While true, Massive Firepower means the player has that much more power, and thus in the right hands it devastates everything.

    In the right hands, a fork can be very powerful and could kill a thousand zombies. At the same time, in the right hands, a gun can be very powerful as well. It just so happens that the Gun will have much more power than the fork at any given point of time, lending us to the conclusion that because its destructive power is higher, it can very well be more powerful than the fork could be in the right hands.

    Because energy has been the primary factor of skill usage historically. Now you've made a class that this doesn't hold true for, and now that means energy is fuckall useless for him. Oh hey, Field Engineer, Recon, I dont give a fuck for your support in the form of energy.

    Everything revolves around energy - how much you have, how much you regenerate, how much you use, how long you will have it. Suddenly, the big idea is to make a class tree that doesn't give a fuck for it.

    Me eating my broccoli doesn't stop children in Africa from starving, but that doesn't change the fact that they would get better mileage out of my broccoli. You're doing nothing more than putting ammunition and weaponry at an inaccessible location. Why give the Infantry FO energy if he doesn't have a use for it?

    What a coincidence, the Engineer does the same exact thing. Oh wait, the engineer actually has a skill to use aside from replace bot, and has some sort of mutual benefit from working with his bot. The FO could die and nobody would give a fuck aside from having lost MoH. What does the FO have to contribute past his mini's?

    I laughed when you said it doesn't whore kills. How exactly have the FO mini's changed so that they stopped whoring kills? Its not like you-

    Oh. That explains why you think that Mini's won't be killwhores - their kill-whoring is mitigated by making killing less valuable in terms of whoring experience. Fabulous way to provide a DPS that doesn't whore kills - just devalue the killing so the DPSing would need to be higher to whore kills on a level in the past.

    Nice opinion and fantastic reasoning. Is it going to be true if I say it is true?

    Hybrids have always been shit upon. When you need DPS, you don't go to the Rifleman, you go to the Commando. There's a reason why Silver Star was changed from win with 8x Riflemen - because many jacks of all trades won't beat the aces of spades.

    Because its easy to look at the ideal situation. Ideally, in the pursuit of the American Dream, you could become very materially wealthy and very happy, but that doesn't mean you will be. You could touch the stars, but that doesn't mean you will.

    I fail to see what is wrong with his opinion. As far as I am aware, there has always been a dislike of tree hybriding because it was preforming everything mediocrely. I don't see how that sentiment isn't applicable here either.

    I think there is a difference between taking risks with a regard and taking needless risks for no reason.

    I don't see how being safe and not camping are mutually exclusive.

    How exactly does your Mini-Healer change that? Why would I choose FO just for a Mini-Healer that is sub-par at best. I'm sure that even a mediocre hybrid medic is superior to the mediocrity that makes up FO Infantry.

    Not all options are good or preferable. If your finger hurts, you can amputate it and your finger will stop hurting, but now somewhere else will hurt, and you'll have no finger.

    You say specialize for all situations but that is nothing more than a paradox. You're just saying to be a jack of all trades. 8 Jacks won't beat 8 Aces.

    I can put effort toward mashing the button "P," but that doesn't mean that anything good or useful will come from it. The reward from microing those 3 units for the FO doesn't appear to be worth the effort.

    Its more like you took away the concept of managing energy. Unfortunately, there is nothing that will mitigate your cooldown time, only your energy consumption. So rather than the player's wanton use being a possible limiting factor due to energy (with some things able to mitigate that and allow further wanton use), you've made a hard limit in the form of an unmovable cooldown.

    But not every class becomes a piece of shit in higher difficulties.

    And you have?

    I don't see why anyone would pick Forward Observer infantry over Field Support Engineer. FS Engineer's T1 provides a better tank that doesn't go away and can even reduce armor.

    Hell, isn't the X-1 Guardian already superior to the FO's infantry?

    With the FO, you're trying to sell us a shitty version of a Combat Engineer. One that has no use for energy. One that tries to do everything in a crappy fashion.

    The only reason I would even consider FO, would be to have a Combat Engineer mind-control the Mini's and have all 9 be controlled by the Engineer. The FO would hybrid into Artillery in order to be useful. I would not consider going into a mediocre tree purely - I would rather hybrid between a mediocre and useful tree. There wouldn't even be a reason to bother going Infantry early on anyways, as the CE wouldn't be able to MC them, so it would effectively be just a 1 point delay to T3 for the Forward Observer, if even that. Then we'd have 9 mini-rines and a useful Artillery FO - the best of both worlds.

    As far as I can tell, you're only listening to those who are saying its OP on paper and ignoring those who are saying its UP or appears like shit in its probable practice.

    If you want to hide behind the curtain of "other people think experts would be OP with it," that is fine by me but I don't think its a reasonable defense.
  2. vexxenon

    vexxenon Well-Known Member

    Artilary is imo pretty damn balanced. If you have to screw up one thing, please screw up mini tree, and not both at the same time.
  3. Kith
    • Development Team
    • Designer

    Kith NOTD Staff: Anti-Fun Wizard Skeleton

    Of course it's situational. All of the weapons in NOTD are situational. All of the classes in NOTD are situational.

    I have. Multiple times. The fact that he can bring in three to four additional bodies to shoot at things and accomplish tasks apparently isn't enough.

    Best example I can give you is that of a Rocket Launcher vs a Sniper Rifle. Two different tools for two different jobs.

    "Suddenly"? This concept has been around for more than half a year. If anything is sudden, I'd say it's the decision to bitch about these plans.

    Anyways. My response to this hasn't changed - I really don't care that it's going against the grain. The player still has plenty to do.

    Because the Artillery FO needs the energy.

    Not much beyond being a packmule and the DPS of their weapon.

    The Marksmen were the real killstealing problem because of their high damage attacks, which you will no longer be able to get three of. Additionally, the player will not be able to get more than one mini for the entirety of Tier 1, meaning that they'll have to wait until Tier 2 to get multiple minis. By that point, the other players have a much higher chance of having obtained better gear and better skills, so the FO isn't going to be the highest DPS on the block.

    Also what I said previously.

    Stop the snark. I'm not in the mood to deal with it.

    No, the Silver Star was changed because people bitched hard enough. I don't know if you've noticed, but many of the balance changes that happened with NOTD have been due to people crying hard enough. Silver Star was changed because too many people thought it was too hard to play without a tank. That said - yes, you can go Commando instead of a Rifleman, and yes, the Commando does have a higher DPS output. This is assuming you play him properly.

    My point, which you seem to have missed, is that Nite thinks that the class is bad and nobody will play it despite the fact that I've gotten a lot of feedback that says otherwise.

    Hybriding has always been looked down upon because, if you hybrid, you cannot reach Tier 3 without extreme effort. I imagine this time will be different because doing multiple things is the point of the tree.

    Why do you consider skilled players skipping an entire class dedicated to something they don't really need and instead taking a class that can contribute to DPS/Disables in addition to filling the role that the Medic fills a "needless risk"?

    It doesn't change that. Players have always been able to get by with medical items and kiting, even back in Aftermath. The Mini-Healer is just an option.

    Stop being stupid out of spite. It's starting to annoy me.

    No, what I'm saying by "specialize for all situations" is "bring more than one type of unit to the table". Fielding all three (or four) infantry types covers enough bases that you essentially have a miniature exped team in your possession. That said - again - the Infantry FO's primary purpose is to fill multiple roles so the team can stuff the deck with "more aces", as you put it.

    If they're too weak, we'll buff them later once they're actually implemented and we're out of bullshit theorycraft stage.

    You're right, I did take away the concept of managing energy. There would be a problem if I didn't put something else in its place, but I did: cooldown management and way more unit management than any other class.

    "A piece of shit". And you know this for sure? For certain? Have you tested it? Have you run the numbers in context of the missions and holdouts of NOTD 2? What about the survival waves? Black Ops? Competitive?

    As far as I can tell, yes. I've yet to see anyone provide anything that isn't in the context of "I think it's going to be bad" when it hasn't been implemented yet.

    You may not, but you do not speak for everyone. As a matter of fact, the only people that have really had any sort of problem with the FO Update Extravaganza are you and Niteshade.

    The X-1 Guardian is superior to most classes.

    If you really want to put it that way, I guess you could.

    "It's not like other classes and therefore I don't like it."

    Still opinions, still theorycraft, still don't have all of the information.

    That won't be possible. Also, that's stupid.

    I am listening to the informed majority rather than the vocal minority. I am also willing to change it if it does turn out to perform poorly, but this fact seems to elude absolutely fucking everyone.

    I'm not.

    Shut up, Vex.
    • Winner Winner x 1
  4. Ramses II
    • Donator

    Ramses II Help, I can't change my title!

    I stopped reading halfway through the argument because I'm a bit short on time and it seemed to devolve into argument over wording and restatement of previous points, so you'll have to forgive me if this was already mentioned.

    Mini FO has never been, and will never be, one of the best 8 options for a nightmare game. His skills are in compensating slightly in a lot of ways for other players' weaknesses (note: players, not classes). He does not have the role specialization necessary to be on an elite team. THIS IS NOT A PROBLEM.

    Kithrixx has stated on multiple occasions that each class will have its place, not that each of the 30(?) talent trees and each of the variant tier 3 talents would be part of the optimal team for, in NOTD1 terms, an exped NM Speed with 2500 sr. By definition, there can only actually be one optimal team, so with so many different options it's plainly laughable that you want them all to be equally viable.

    So what is Mini FO's place, do you ask? Leading recruit games. He's flashy enough and has enough guys to give newbies a sense of a team, he can compensate for missing aspects of a team in a pseudo-tank, pseudo-medic (late-game), and a bunch of extra useless lumps shooting (which is about what a newbie is anyways most of the time). He even gets the medic late enough in the game that the new players have had a chance to try to figure things out on their own and now that the game is actually getting difficult close to the end they have an extra safety net. There are few classes that can be as effective in this role as the Mini FO, and each has specific areas in which they excel and others where they don't actually do anything. The Mini FO, on the other had, does pretty much all of them to a mediocre extent and doesn't really have any weaknesses other than being pretty micro intensive. But hey, the players who normally try to lead recruits are used to controlling leavers to a mediocre extent, so it plays to those players' strengths anyways.
    • Agree Agree x 1
  5. vexxenon

    vexxenon Well-Known Member

    Think I'm ok with the fact that mini FO is acknowledged as something for em, hardened, vet, but don't advertise it as it is something for NM, because as it has been stated multiple times, there are plenty of classes that can outplay mini FO, period fucking period. It will never, ever be as good as any other classes. Even engi bot tanks better than it, I concour with that.

    The arguement of it being good in the hands of the skilled, well, I haven't seen it done yet. I have seen many that tried and failed, hard. That being said, I've also seen many perfer a class that plays its role well over half assed mini. I'd even argue that mini back in the days when it was based on a timer is better since you don't have to worry about it dying, that serves more of a meatshield than today's mini which have a spawn limit.

    Also, this retarded forum post rating, is it something money can buy? lol
  6. Grevious

    Grevious Member

    *sigh* honestly....I think the only thing that can be done is have people submit ideas about what to do to inf FO and consider them all so people will be happy. im sure theres plenty of arguments I could pull out of my ass for Inf FO.....but they are all meaningless as im a dedicated arty. I think half of my lack of understanding of what is going on is from not having played meat shield. this is just seeming to me like 2 people trying to argue why a class does or doesn't suck. I could come up with a few arguments as to why Survrofl in my opinion sucks, doesn't mean it does as a matter of fact. at the same time, when I did play mini FO I felt a little.....disappointed cuz they basically don't do much in way of help. its like having sheng follow you around. perhaps part of that is the fact a little more microing is required. never know for sure.
  7. Commlink
    • Development Team
    • Modeler

    Commlink Programmer/Asset Designer

    Seriously, this fo is not for NOTD its for NOTD2 gg

    Edit: one day i will learn to spell .. its on the to do list
  8. Blaqk
    • Development Team
    • Webmaster/Ops

    Blaqk NOTD Staff: Operations and Web

    Can we learn some respect before Shooz shows up? I'd like to keep him chained up as long as possible but he just can't resist banning people for being inflammatory.

    If you don't like a proposed change, suggest something better. For now, let Kith rage out a working Alpha version before you start shooting down his ideas like you're the RAF in the Battle of London.
  9. Loganos

    Loganos New Member

    Randomed FO, gotta remake.

    Since you were asserting that not that many people were displeased with it, allow me to be contributed to the list of people who don't like.

    I like the idea of not having 3 marines in tier one, that was a smart move.

    There's all these criticisms of the FO, but specific alternatives aren't being added, so if you want suggestions, I might be able to think of a few things.

    1) A better way to deal with the experience issue might be to make minis share 75-95% of experience from the kills they get.

    2) Have the minis share an energy pool with the FO and make their abilities real, effective abilities, not mini semi-effective abilities.

    3) Let the minis exchange equipment as part of the T3 so you can eventually have groups that aren't incredibly difficult to micro manage. Also deciding to specialize means you don't get to use all of the abilities since you'd need that mini active to use it, so there is a drawback to having all minis be marksman for example. It may be unnecessary to have 3 tanks, or 3 medics, so people might not do that anyway. Perhaps abilities or damage of 3 marksman minis can be played to equate to 1 whole well-played marksman in terms of damage output on a boss, since you already have the added difficulty of micro managing everything. You sacrifice part of that damage if the team needs a tank or healer, so it's an even trade.

    4) This may be out there, but maybe moving MI to Squad Leader since it sounds more fitting of a squad leader to call down their own infantry than a forward observer and maybe make an air liason tree or something? Also if this is a class designed for pub games with noobies for a vet to play, squad leader would be more fitting to do this. Also the very nature of this talent tree doesn't sound like a caster role, especially since these minis are meant to be supportive. It makes more sense for it to be squad leader.

    5) I haven't seen how it plays yet, but it would make more sense for the medic mini to be part of T1 or T2 rather than T3 since a medic is a constant need throughout a game, not just lategame, and keeping the team alive early game is more important so you can at least get partial credit for that particular game.
  10. Kith
    • Development Team
    • Designer

    Kith NOTD Staff: Anti-Fun Wizard Skeleton

    Be more specific.

    No. People can deal.

    No, it doesn't. The Forward Observer calls in either Artillery Support or Infantry Support, providing additional support of varying types to the mission as they see fit. He is not actually a leader of any kind, he is just qualified to make decisions about allocating resources.

    No, because the Corpsman can completely replace a Medic. If the team is high enough in DPS and good enough at kiting, at most they'll only be taking a few hits and only ever get a few ailments, something the Corpsman can easily handle. If the Corpsman was Tier 1 or Tier 2, the Infantry Support FO would outright replace the healing Medic in high-level games because the IS FO's DPS and utility is higher by a wide margin.
  11. Grevious

    Grevious Member

    ^^^^^ exactly.....thus far its just people saying "this tree sucks" and shoving their opinions in kith`s face. Guys, FO is a style of game play all its own. Its not entirely supposed to hold off entire waves on its own. Im assuming what the class is based off of is those in our militaries today:

    "There are two main duties associated with Fire Support Teams according to general military doctrine and the U.S. Army Field Manual 3-09.30. Primary responsibilities of FiSTs are to "bring all means of indirect fire in support of the Maneuver Commander." This includes all Indirect Fire(IDF) Assets (Artillery, Mortars, Naval Gunfire and close-air-support [CAS]). Secondary duties consist of communicating battlefield intelligence such as enemy locations, strength, and activities to Command."

    granted the mobile infantry tree is an extra, as well as the second duty is what the recon is for, but either way FO is a style of play all in its own. As well as there is no navy on mars seeing as the planet is a giant red ball of sand/dirt.

    Again, I`m not gonna pretend to be knowledgeable in regards to the MSFO since I've yet to really play it. Honestly, the MI tree makes sense given the fact that "(Forward) Observers must be able to work independently for long periods of time and, because the clandestine nature of their work and their frequent placement on or behind enemy lines, the ability to operate with minimal support is of great importance...".

    Only real suggestion I have in regards to that is to give FO another 1-2 inventory slots. Not quite enough to match the recon, but it can at least grab another one or two items for the team. Regardless, people have to understand for changes to be made without first having tested it in alpha/beta would be.....

    well.....a huge friggin waste of time. Sure they could make all these changes now because a few people don't like the current proposed changes. then when it gets to testing and those few don't like those changes what are they supposed to do?

    This is why there is TESTING before anything else. Lets be honest, how many of those suggesting changes already really play MI? the only player I really know of to do that is Robomonkey.
    Last edited: Feb 18, 2014
  12. Niktos

    Niktos Well-Known Member

    For Loganos n.2 idea i understand it as:
    -abilities stay on minis
    -cooldowns are gone/changed
    -abilities get energy cost
    -each use of ability on mini drains energy from fo pool

    It would get fo in line with others as now everyone would need to manage energy and shortcircut and the like is equally painfull.
    However i got a feeling interaction like this could be a pain in the ass to get to work in editor. If it is doable it gets my +1. (it also is probably harder to balance than strict cooldowns on minis)

    You don't need to play a class religiously to know how it performs, hell you don't need to play it at all if you seen it in action in different setups.
    Setting is an unknown for now for notd2. Rework that NiteShade is bashing atm is for notd which flow/background/mechanics we are familiar with.

    Actual notd2 rework is still not in material form or undisclosed deep in Kith documents. (it might very well be same, or it can be way different)
  13. Grevious

    Grevious Member

    Well not religiously or regularly no....though only playing said MI tree a handful of times only gives a general idea. If its the current version that is getting discussed then this is not the right thread >.> haha

    Worded like that makes a lot of sense actually.

    Ill admit, though that's what I was trying to point out I might not have worded/ pointed it out as well as I could have.
  14. add me to the guys against the cooldown stuff, i want Energy pool that i can manage with the cooldown stuff i cannot for example avoid using grenade to save energy for rocket and stuff like that (this is my biggest problem with FO mini for now, waiting how this performs in action but on paper it does not seem right)
  15. Loganos

    Loganos New Member

    Niktos clarified it better than I could've worded it.

    Well, the idea is, at T3 your 3 marksman minis would function as well as a whole marksman in DPS output, and if you want a tank or healer, you sacrifice part of that damage output so with mm mini, flame mini, corpsman mini, you only do 1/3 of the DPS output. If you only need a healer, you do 2/3 of the DPS output. The price of having the capacity to be versatile is having to micromanage very carefully and doing less damage. This is a well balanced system, and by T3 Kill-whoring isn't as much of an issue and it still thins the hordes out. Sharing out experience can make the whoring less problematic and the FO can be asked to hold fire if a certain class specifically needs to level. The MI whoring is only really a big deal early game and you solved that problem.

    But the idea of calling down additional bodies and controlling them (I.E ordering them around) sounds like a squad leader, and the role the MI can fulfill between the disables, tanking, and healing would seem to be supportive. Calling down bodies doesn't seem like something a "caster" would do, while a tree dedicated to air support does. It makes perfect sense unless you already have two trees already laid out for squad leader. Part of this point was in response to Ramses II point of MI not being for nm games but for pubs. Well, a vet leading a group of noobies in a pub sounds like "squad leader" business and with the MI being able to fill in for other roles, where much of the group might not know how to play them well or didn't choose them, sounds perfect for that.

    Mini medics can be balanced out so that they aren't as good as a real field aid medic. Like, having items, armor, an inventory, or a tier 3 ability for example is kind of punishing. Just being able to heal, cure cripple/ow, and shield at a basic level seems plenty balanced while not being as good as a real medic. All of the support roles provide energy (engineer, medic, and supply station recon) and thats a big chunk missing of getting a real medic. No nano-strength buff at level 10+, and only 1 ability that heals instead of 3. Also having to micro manage that healing on top of controlling all the other minis and the FO mitigates the effectiveness over a dedicated healer. Also I thought the idea was to give people alternatives to the meta (which would be having a dedicated medic) instead of making people follow the meta of having a medic every game. Also if the energy pool was shared with the FO, there's only so much you could heal someone before you're OOM so the FO couldn't be doing OP DPS at the same time. Also if it's not meant to replace the medic at all, why even have this as an option? And if you're at T3 without a healer, you probably don't need one for the rest of the game.

    *Edit* Expanding on #4 a bit, I understand it may be difficult to try to invent a whole new tree, so allow me to give some ideas to try and help.

    For the squad leader, move MI to that tree. All previous ideas for squad leader could be put into the other tree which could be called "Leadership" with passives and active abilities that help the team.

    To replace MI in FO, artillery as it's currently put in can be kept as is except replace airstrike with an ability that replenishes shells or a passive that replenishes shells. The quantity and effectiveness of that can be balanced as you see fit. The new tree can be air support, including gunship and airstrike, but I suppose you might want ideas for more abilities, so here's a few ideas, obviously not meant to all be together.

    The ability to temporarily call down some uncontrollable wraiths, vikings and/or banshees for a limited time to follow you around and killing enemies.
    The ability to call down supplies (magazines, medkits, armor, weapons) with a long cooldown.
    The ability to temporarily call down a medevac to replenish health and energy of the team
    Some sort of satellite orbital laser ability?
    So there's minis that follow you around in NOTD1 in the EC and AC storymodes. Maybe a summoned medevac can come in and replenish AI minis if they die in the NOTD2 campaign
    Spy plane to perform scouting runs
    Some random air damaging ground ability that's not gunship/airstrike
    Modifier to things like gunship/airstrike to make them more effective.
    Last edited: Feb 18, 2014
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  16. Blaqk
    • Development Team
    • Webmaster/Ops

    Blaqk NOTD Staff: Operations and Web

  17. vexxenon

    vexxenon Well-Known Member

    Sure, I'm ok with Kith rage out on the Alpha version before shooting down his ideas, but I do hope nowhere in the future does anyone play the card that "hey, no one argued with this in the design phase". Because we did, many times.

    Many people didn't like proposed change, because for one, it doesn't fix anything. I have something to suggest, that in my opinion is better, but that is my opinion alone, which most likely wont be incorporated anyhow. Lets remove mini FO all together, and leave arty as it is. I think that solves the mini problem and arty is just as good as it is right now.
    • Agree Agree x 1
  18. Ramses II
    • Donator

    Ramses II Help, I can't change my title!

    Squad Leader is a buffs/debuffs and auras class. Not a beastmaster.
  19. Loganos

    Loganos New Member

    That statement ignores a few points I made in my post, but I'll mention that archetypes from Warcraft III don't apply here, since minis do more than beastmaster pets ever did and fulfill roles that warcraft 3 didn't have, and there's multiple trees. The other tree for squad leader would be the buffs/debuffs/auras.
  20. Yuey
    • Warden

    Yuey Warden

    Beastmaster isn't an archetype limited to Warcraft 3, its a catchall term for most summoner types that have/has semi-permanent follower(s) (abilities may or may not be included in the package, hell one of the dot points mentions magical beings and robotic constructs, one assumes that they will be come stock with some cool abilities). The extent of their abilities is a non-issue in this case where the playstyle fits the archetype. Granted it doesn't necessarily apply unless you consider minis "beasts" but once again, the playstyle fits, therefore the archetype applies.

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