For squish: Pistol vs SG on Tartarus

Discussion in 'Archive' started by David, Mar 2, 2014.

  1. Kith
    • Development Team
    • Designer

    Kith NOTD Staff: Anti-Fun Wizard Skeleton

    Hordes n' holdouts are still a thing. You're also assuming that the player has a 100% full magazine at the start of a boss encounter, which is not always the case. Extra mag size gives a lot more wiggle room in that regard.

    ... The days of giving the Armsalt the HMG are "past". You're joking, right? The HMG is literally designed to be used by the Arms Assault. Someone with HCM being second choice I can see, but there is no situation that I can think of where he wouldn't get first dibs.

    I am aware of this - I was the one who made that change. Concentrated Fire gives you +15% Critical Strike while active if Critical Strike has a point in it, meaning that if you have one point in Critical Strike you're getting 50% of a Level 3 Critical Strike while Concentrated Fire is active. Putting additional points into Critical Strike doesn't really net you anything other than the 10% per level.
  2. David

    David Well-Known Member

    Any good player will make it a point to be at full ammo at the start of a boss fight. Yes, the HMG is created for the assault, yes it should always get first dibs. However, an effective assault that uses SG will find the HMG is holstered away in his inventory for most of the game (giving it to the combat rifleman or commando is a common trend). There, might be a few bosses in survival where you want to switch to HMG (GOTB) but for the most part you run around with a shotgun. This is why we see the evolution of the assault not using the HMG like he did in the old days. You just cannot beat the utility of an arms assault using a shotgun.

    I'm merely addressing the trend of how the game is played at its highest level. Is this my opinion? Yes. But it's also the opinion shared by the majority of people who play at the highest level of the game.
  3. vexxenon

    vexxenon Well-Known Member

    Not all people play at the highest level. And HMG? I thought it was the worst gun ever... I've not seen assault prefer HMG over sg, must be something NEW or [snip snip Shooz].. I pick the latter.
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 14, 2014
  4. rockz
    • Donator

    rockz Well-Known Member

    The description implies that each point in critical strike increases Concentrated fire's critical chance 5% per level in addition to the regular 10% per level.
    3/3 = 45% crit
    3/1 = 15% crit
    1/3 = 45% crit
    2/2 = 30% crit
    If I am incorrect and there's really 5% difference in critical hit % between 3/1 and 2/2 then it is a poorly designed skill combination.
  5. Lolurisk

    Lolurisk Member

    I'm pretty sure your 3/1 and 1/3 are wrong

    3/1 should be 25% (15% +10%)
    1/3 should be 35% (5%+30%)
  6. Kith
    • Development Team
    • Designer

    Kith NOTD Staff: Anti-Fun Wizard Skeleton

    Oh, no, whoops. I misremembered. Concentrated Fire gives 5% Critical Strike per level while active, meaning that Level 1 gives 5%, level 2 gives 10%, et al.

    Either way, yes, Concentrated Fire effectively gives you half of the equal level of Critical Strike while active. As for if it is "poorly designed" or not, that's up to debate. You are welcome to offer alternatives in the appropriate thread, as we have already driven this one far enough off topic.
  7. Froblock

    Froblock Well-Known Member

    SG as mando vs Cronus.
    The number of reloads missed vs the timing for max adren + surgical strike to be active at the same time Cronus is off the creep (which makes him invuln) costed us the game.
    The sheer # of impediments during these boss fights does not make Mando+Shotgun a very reliable class to wield it. (Also see: Mando dodging laser with max adren on. EZ to empty a clip and miss a reload)

    Max adren with shotgun drains 2 rounds at a time at a very fast rate.
    And if you also factor in lag & frame rate lag, shotgun + mando equates in disaster.

    Post edited. -Blaqk
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 18, 2014
  8. rockz
    • Donator

    rockz Well-Known Member

    No, this is not a poorly designed skill. If Concentrated fire gave you 5/10/15% critical based on the concentrated fire level as Lolurisk said then 3/1 would give you 25% rather than 15% (vs 2/2's 30%) and there would be virtually no advantage to maxing critical strike first. However it looks like I was correct, so there's a 15% chance critical difference, which will effectively save ammunition if such a situation is necessary (pretty much never).
  9. squish

    squish Well-Known Member

    SG as mando vs cronus is funny anyways. Why? Because he's not massive. Poor choice to use it on, I learned that the hard way. Adrenaline Shotgun vs non-massive pretty much equals a chain stun. If cronus shits creep and gets chain stunned, good luck. With surg 3 each shot off creep amounts to something on the order of about 140 damage. At that point you're better off with a pistol. Now, versus massive, the numbers say you'd be doing roughly 350 damage per shot. 70 * 2.5 (Massive damage + surg), then doubled again because the popular consensus is that sg is double tapping, which is hard at this point to disprove. Anyways, get back on topic, please.
  10. squish

    squish Well-Known Member

  11. squish

    squish Well-Known Member

    In the interest of proving a point to you heathens non-believers, I'll upload a video today.

    Please do forgive all the missed/fucked up reloads. Recording a game introduces a random deviation lag which makes it hard as all fuck to hit those reloads properly.

    It'll be live here:

    Also, the juicy part's near the end. Fast forward if you don't wanna sit through 10-12 minutes of fuckery.

    Edit: Ready for viewing pleasure.
    Last edited: Apr 25, 2014
  12. Ramses II
    • Donator

    Ramses II Help, I can't change my title!

    Granted he was ridiculously over leveled due to buying a shotty and hcm at the start, whored most of the early parts even more than necessary, and I was holding fire most of the game as arms ass so that some of the other classes could get levels.
  13. squish

    squish Well-Known Member

  14. ChuckWing

    ChuckWing Member

    Have you read anything that I wrote about this? lol. Why are you still talking about sg and dps on tart? Nobody argued that lol.
    First, you bought hcm and sg which 98% of the notd population will not do, we already talked about how that shouldn't be part of the equation. Post a video of you not buying if you want to make a point. And for the thousandth time.... nobody is saying sg isn't good dps on tart lol. Tell me one person who wrote in this thread that said it isnt good dps on tart? And a 10k tart dying in 15 seconds is nowhere near special. I'm actually worried if a full hp tart takes more than 15 seconds to kill.

    And ps, who keeps the pistol after he buys sg and hcm?
  15. squish

    squish Well-Known Member

    I do, or I give it to the next best dps

    I'm not saying that people don't believe me, I'm saying that they underestimate the output of it.
  16. tigonridge

    tigonridge Member

    Chuck has a good point regarding shotty and Eli. It's better to play safely 100% guaranteed success, than to say "let's risk it a little to shave a few seconds off of the boss fight." Even if mando has HCM, the cooldown for adrenaline + surg, is ridiculously. If eli poops a 2nd set of eggs, while mando is still on CD, gg, banes incoming! In fact, it's probably better to give sg to SMM, who has at least 4 weapon mods in attack, than mando, even. His job would be just to QA eggs, then manual reload and stop shooting til another set of eggs spawn. Sure, it's not the fastest way to kill eli, but it's still safer than dealing with the risk of mando's long cooldown. SG on SMM is still high enough DPS, so that eli should never be alive long enough to heal.

    Regarding tart, it's pointless to argue over a few percentages of DPS. Instead, argue over which method is best for preserving DSM. Give SG to assa/smm, and flame to mando and have everyone stand at safe distance. Pistol should be secondary choice to flame/sg, because it doesn't have splash to help pop the banes before they reach the tank.

    For the dudes debating arms assault's left tree. lol Arguing over peanuts, eh, guys? I don't think it makes a significant difference whether you have 10% more crit or 120 ammo capacity vs 80. However, 80 is plenty. David is right that good players know to manually reload before a boss fight.
    Last edited: Apr 29, 2014
  17. squish

    squish Well-Known Member

    You know what you're arguing as far as flame versus shotgun on massive targets in the debate over range? Fucking semantics, that's what. 4.65 Flamethrower (Base) versus 4.5 shotgun (base). As far as damage goes:
    Fast forward to 13:45.
    Have a watch there to get an idea of shotgun damage potential done right.
    Tell me the pistol works that fast.

    Shotgun works fucking wonders against eli,** and builds up adrenaline more than exponentially faster than pistol if you time your adrenaline right. Hold fire until first set of eggs, adrenaline, and open up. EVERY egg you hit with shotgun splash affects your adrenaline*, and you ramp up so quick that by the time your 5 second timer is up and it's time to surg, your rate of fire is maxed.

    *If you want to see this in action, go play a pub as commando and find the shotgun. Use on airlock eggs. Fucking instant ~.26 rate of fire.

    **Even though Eli isn't massive, the splash hits all the eggs, too. In nightmare she shits what, 12 eggs? That's 3 shots to max.
    Wanna know how fast that is? <----faster than you can read that sentence mentally.

    A lot of people underestimate the splash range of shotgun. Let me put it into perspective: Half a nuke's blast range is the shotgun splash. Fucking sad when a shotgun on surg adren does more than 4 times the damage of surgical nukes.

    Anyways. Yeah. Shotgun is retarded overpowered; I vote we keep it that way for NotD1. It makes no sense to fix it now when it's been broken(?) for years.
  18. TheWolf
    • Donator

    TheWolf Surgeon of Death

    just to post it again sicne squish apparetnly still cant read.
    noone is arguing on the dps. we just talk about the safer ways. + make a video without buying hcm to prove your point.
    Last edited: Apr 29, 2014
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  19. EdowardoLMP

    EdowardoLMP Well-Known Member

    I agreed tried it in a the "squeaky clean" way, remove all the bias factor where you have max mod, buy stuff, lvl2 kickstart .... etc. Most of the results you've shown were based on "you MUST have a, b, c in order to get the effects of x, y, z from SG". This just makes 10k first timer ops mando get shrugged off instantly by the fact that most of us can and have the ability to do some serious pow pow because of all the benefits and experience we got.
  20. tigonridge

    tigonridge Member

    I didn't say anything about range. I would only argue to give sg to assault/smm, for the reason that sometimes unexpected things could happen, such as:

    1. Someone trips cam when they shouldn't have, and here comes ghouls/agrons; while the mando is on CD. GG.
    2. Bain train, either the random one with blindlings, or the ones from an infestor; while mando is on CD. GG.

    Sorry that I didn't make that clearer in my prior post, but Chuck had already mentioned those reasons.

    Regarding Eli, you still haven't addressed the issue of the CD potentially making things dicey. No one cares (except you) that a boss fight goes on a few seconds longer, as long as there is a higher chance of success. Being obsessed with DPS, and ignoring all else is dangerous.

    SG is not overpowered. Like flamethrower, it's a high-risk/micro-high-reward weapon. Their ranges are low for a reason. On non-massive things with high armor, SG isn't so great. Of course surg + SG is more powerful than a nuke; SG doesn't have a mile long range and 8 radius.
    Last edited: Apr 29, 2014

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