For squish: Pistol vs SG on Tartarus

Discussion in 'Archive' started by David, Mar 2, 2014.

  1. David

    David Well-Known Member

    Question: When playing Commando, what deals the most damage to Tartarus?

    Scenario:

    -Operations Commando with Surgical Strike 3 (+150% damage) and Adrenaline 3 (+474% weapon speed)

    -All reloads are gold reloads happening at exactly 0 bullets (50% reload reduction)

    -All reloads that occur during combo have an additional 50% reload reduction time (multiplicative)

    -A perfect combo is executed starting with Adrenaline followed by Surgical Strike exactly 5 seconds afterwards

    -Weapons Specialist is taken into consideration (50% reduced equip/switch time)

    -For flamer/pistol and flamer/SG the flamer is shot 5 times to max adrenaline before immediately switching to the shotgun or pistol for shot 6 onwards (Tartarus gets hit by 7 flames a stream meaning it takes 5 shots to achieve 30 stacks of adrenaline)


    Weapon damage on Tartarus (2 armor, bio, heroic, armored, massive):

    Flamer (0 armor reduction coefficient, +1dmg bio/massive)
    Regular damage = 9 x 7 = 63

    Surgical Strike damage = 9 x 7 x 2.5 = 157.5

    Pistol (1.5 armor reduction coefficient, +3dmg heroic)
    Regular damage = 43 - 3 = 40

    Surgical Strike damage = 43 x 2.5-3 = 104.5

    Shotgun (1 armor reduction coefficient, +35dmg massive)
    Regular damage = (70-2) x 2 = 136

    Surgical Strike damage = (70 x 2.5 - 2) x 2 = 346


    Results:
    Pistol SG Tart.png
    Gun damage over time – a perfectly executed Commando combo (20s)

    Total Damage
    Flamer/SG -> 18k
    Flamer/Pistol -> 14.9k
    SG -> 14.9k
    Pistol -> 12.1k
    Flamer -> 11.6k


    Discussion:

    Eli pretty much has identical classifications and armor as Tartarus so the numbers will still apply. Obviously you cannot use a flamethrower on Eli so following the numbers for the lone Pistol and SG you will note the shotgun is the gun of choice. Surprisingly, the shotgun ramps adrenaline quite fast with just 2 stacks per shot. Just remember not to start the combo until Eli’s movement has been completely stopped.

    Weapon expertise is a huge factor in why weapon switching after maxing adrenaline greatly increases damage. Any competent Commando player should know how to do this if they want to maximize the utility of the class. While usually not practical (inventory space) or economical (ammo), the SMG + Shotgun combo is the safest way to max adrenaline before switching.

    If the team finds HE ammo before fighting Tartarus, the flamer damage jumps to ~18k, so switching to a pistol would greatly decrease your output.

    I won’t talk about any of the other factors like needing a good tank or extra range, or the fact that the flamethrower will critical strike more than 50 percent of the time with 9 in perception. This study is mainly to compare pistol and SG. However, with the epiphany that the flamer crits the way it does, I'm sure it's safe to say that with HE and 9 perception, the flamer is the most damaging weapon in the game when used by a Operations Commando (this is nothing new).


    Conclusion:

    Switching from a flamer to a shotgun deals the most damage to Tartarus when using Operations Commando

    If the team finds HE ammo, keep using a flamer instead of switching to a pistol
    Last edited: Mar 4, 2014
  2. squish

    squish Well-Known Member

    For eli I use the shotgun only when eli lays eggs. I'm on hold fire until that point where she's stationary and laying eggs. Each shot with a shotgun will stack adrenaline for each unit it hits - eggs factor into this.
  3. Niktos

    Niktos Well-Known Member

    Given that you most likely got this saved, could you make a version where mando ends up missing 1st or 2nd reload on -nm.

    Just curious if not being perfect changes mathematical leader. (i still think shotgun should go to assault but that is not place for this)

    Thinking of it now scenario where mando is incompetent and goes all white would be nice too. While more predictable results wise having graph for both best/worst would be fuller [and easier for manipulating/picking data based on needs 8) huehue]
  4. ChuckWing

    ChuckWing Member

    Max adren sg with no hcm is just asking for fail though, we all know this.... I hope. Either by fail reload or you are forced (to be safer) to reload earlier than 0, at like 4-6, which is cutting off a pretty decent chunk of your clip and hurting your dps. Assuming there is only one sg, I don't think any competent person is going to argue that mando gets that one sg over assault. I would still much rather take the 17% less dps as you state, because with the reload less likely to be perfect each time, a chunk of that 17% disappears. Add in the fact that the assaults more constant dps is way safer than mandos burst dps, and that the mando is far less likely to eat a beastling using pistol, and I will take the smg/pistol combo every day.

    I'm sure you can do this same thing for Demeter as well and people will still be saying "flamer does way more dps than smg/pistol combo". Yeah well, flaming Deimos is epic dps also... doesn't mean you will see me doing it very often.
  5. squish

    squish Well-Known Member


    My main issue with doing that though is this: If your team isn't competent enough to shoot eli and the eggs, the pistol won't be splashing the eggs like the shotgun will. The shotgun absolutely destroys everything it hits in the hands of a commando. I tend to think of the shotgun as the all purpose flamethrower for ground AND air.
  6. TheWolf
    • Donator

    TheWolf Surgeon of Death

    Only IF your team is incompetent. same can be said over the commando. if hes imcompetent and misses the rld there no splash either...
  7. Lolurisk

    Lolurisk Member

    or give the sg to smm :p

    so out of curiosity, is flamer still doing its "increased crit chance" thing? (ie one segment crits they all do)
  8. ChuckWing

    ChuckWing Member

    I don't see your point. Are you saying an assault with a sg can't kill eggs? Because I can assure it can, and it will. It sounds like you are trying to tell me that the most sensible, smart way to fight elly is to give the only sg to the mando. Why would you risk the fail reload? Why would you risk that adren is on cd when elly moves then you have seekers or beasts to deal with? You aren't weighing the risk/reward properly. Giving the assault the sg is the safest, smartest, most sensible way to fight elly or tart. And it's not even close enough to argue imo. You are talking about an extra 17% dps for that risk. And like I said earlier, it isn't even 17% when you calculate the real number. When you take into consideration the reloads will never be perfect constantly with a maxed adren sg, and the fact that the ass with the sg will be doing more dps with that sg than with a pistol or whatever else he would have, and factor in the team dps as a whole (which is the number that actually matters), what kind of damage increase % are you talking about? 5%-8% maybe? Because I can guarantee you, it is not near 17%. If I ever meet a mando you can hit perfect gold reloads with a maxed adren sg 100% of the time, I might actually consider it, but I would probably still side with the assault due to the safety.
    • Agree Agree x 1
  9. squish

    squish Well-Known Member

    I guess people want me to break the math down so they understand.

    Shotgun base damage: 35 + 100% vs massive (Eli, Tart)[I believe it still double taps, but we'll leave that out]
    Shotgun base rate of fire: 1.55 seconds per shot
    Assault base magazine size at level 8 (assuming ammo feed level 2): 120
    Commando base magazine size at any level (NO HCM): 30
    Me playing commando (I buy HCM every game I commando, anyone will attest to that) 60

    Now that that's out of the way, let's look at attack speed boosters.

    Adrenaline level 3 does THIS to the shotgun: 1.55 / (1.06 ^ 30) which gives you 0.27.
    Concentrated fire is a flat +150% rate of fire boost, .62 rate of fire if I did my math right.
    The rate of fire alone means the commando deals out significantly more damage than the assault for the duration they're firing.

    Now let's look at surgical strike vs crits (Which I'm typically at least level 7 by tart/eli in nightmare so basing off of my build means 3 adren 3 surg 1 cut)

    You have surgical strike giving +150% damage before the effects take place (lol)

    Assuming no double tapping, surgical strike gives you 175 damage per shot, crits are a flat +100% damage. The best an assault can do is crit (+30% critical strike, +15% conc fire, maybe some perception) every other shot, which for all intents and purposes at level 8 with the typical build is +75% damage.

    I'd like to stop the math here but I won't.

    70 + 75% (Crits) at .62 means you're dealing roughly speaking about 200 dps to massive. (game time)

    70 + 150% (Surgical only) at .27 means you're doing about 700 dps to massive. (game time)

    30 shots (SG HCM) means you get 7 and a half seconds of 175 damage per shot, followed by a negligible reload time if you time it right (I reload at the exact moment between 2 and 4, latency means 0 gold reload). all of this means you get about 13 seconds of dps at that level.

    While we're on the math subject: these 200dps and 700 dps numbers are rounded down because I'm lazy and playing it conservative and not factoring crits except for the assault.

    A commando with SG alone would be dealing (conservatively) 9100 damage over 13 seconds (reload).


    Assault numbers; assuming decent assault that's level 8 before eli and is 3 conc fire, 3 crit, 2 ammo feed.

    IF I did my huge menagerie of mental math right: The assault would be doing ABOUT 7200 damage over 36 seconds (the time it'd take, approximately speaking) to bang off 60 shots with sg.

    Conclusion Number one that makes me look like an ass is as follows.... assault > commando for eli/tart with sg: Lol.


    Proper Conclusion: The commando is a high risk, high reward DPS that when you get someone who can play it right, makes the game into a joke, and much faster. Is it safer? Depends on how you look at it. Safer because shit dies quicker, riskier because reloads.

    Footnote: Please understand that I in no way mean to insult people; this is just the way I structure my sentences so that people can "get it".
    Last edited: Mar 3, 2014
  10. EdowardoLMP

    EdowardoLMP Well-Known Member

    Because you are only taking account of you own risk involved, and forgotten the the other risks that other members that are involved (i.e: troll lag, beast splash from other members crashed into it... etc). You can't force other people to have better interweb or micro-management for your sake.

    Certain people can play godlikely but not always. Risks are always there, it's just the point of balancing between the risk and reward requires more deep thinking. You might think its worth it while other might think is good or bad. Different people; different opinions.

    Not opposing or anything, while both pistol and SG does surprisingly uber damage to tart/eli, but the fact that the significant difference in range and reload can produce a totally different scenario. Maths are no doubt absolute and real, but not luck.
  11. David

    David Well-Known Member

    Based on the way AP re-worked critical strikes, yes:

    Each flame has always had an independent chance to critical strike. In the past the damage from these "crit flames" would be multiplied by 2 and added to the non-crit flames to compose the total damage done by that particular stream. Currently, whenever a critical strike is achieved, it now adds a "debuff". Unfortunately, this debuff simply multiplies the incoming damage by 2 meaning the damage from the entire stream will be x2. This means it only takes 1 flame in a stream to crit for the entire stream to be given a x2 multiplier. Rather than re-code crits again, it may be easier to link all flames in a stream to a single crit chance (this is probably easier said than done, I have no idea how the code works)

    Nobody is arguing the fact that the commando does significantly more damage than the assault (especially at level 6). It is a matter of practicality and convenience over actual DPS. I've already done the actual math for the commando.

    The shotgun double taps. This is a fact and the reason why it's the most powerful weapon in the game against massive units (see above for proper shotgun damage calculation).
  12. David

    David Well-Known Member

    Manual reloads were executed with 3 bullets left for the pistol and 4 for the shotgun. I call them "Perfect Manual Reloads".

    Flamer Shotgun Reloads.png
    Total Damage Done by Perfect Commando Combo (20s) with Gold, "Perfect Manual" and Automatic (Nightmare) Reloads Using Flamer/SG

    Flam/SG Gold Reload: 18011 dmg
    Flam/SG Manual: 16281 dmg (-9.6%)
    Flam/SG Automatic (Nightmare): 11091 dmg (-38.4%)



    Flamer Pistol Reload.png
    Total Damage Done by Perfect Commando Combo (20s) with Gold, "Perfect Manual" and Automatic (Nightmare) Reloads Using Flamer/Pistol

    Flam/Pistol Gold Reload: 14900 dmg
    Flam/Pistol Manual: 14273 dmg (-4.2%)
    Flam/Pistol Automatic (Nightmare): 12078.5 dmg (-18.9%)


    Overall you can see the range for the shotgun is quite large. Complete failure when reloading in nightmare will result in a 38.4% drop in total damage done. In-game it is impossible for a human to execute the perfect combo with perfect gold reloads. Also, the manual reloads used in the model are impossible to execute by humans as they are "perfect manual reloads" occurring at 3 bullets remaining (pistol) and 4 remaining (SG). This being said, the extremely adept human player, with some combination of imperfect gold and manual reloads should be able to achieve 16-17k total damage with the Flamer/SG.

    The pistol is much more forgiving with complete reloading failure only dropping the damage by 18.9%. Again, no human player can execute a perfect gold or manual reload. At the risk of failing a gold reload, the competent human player should only attempt imperfect manual reloads resulting in damage just below 14k.
    Last edited: Mar 4, 2014
  13. ChuckWing

    ChuckWing Member

    Squish you are totally missing the point. It's not all about dps. IF it was, then every single person would use flamer on Deimos like a boss. But why don't we? Because it is not the safest thing to do and you are putting yourself and/or other people at risk when you do it. Like I said earlier, an Assault with a sg will kill elly eggs easily and with less risk. Meanwhile, shit happens in this game. Maybe 2 more brain bugs come running up to the team and you are the only person who can save MuntMaster, who is a poor helpless engi who doesn't know how to get away. Or some noob recon hit an ag cam and forgot to mention it, and here comes a sexy ag party lookin for a good time. Or maybe a surprise hugger and someones gotta kill the stalker on the hugged guy. And guess what? Your adren and surge is on cd and you do less damage than a medic. Congrats.

    I have probably won more ec nm games than anyone who has ever played this game (assuming Nik hasn't been spammin it on eu lately), and the #1 reason for fail on tart is someone getting tagged by a beastling or two for being too close (USUALLY THE MANDO). And the #1 reason for fail on elly, is when she gets away and poor little mando hit his adren thinkin demo was gonna sap... now what? It's gg, that's what.

    So why the risk for such a small dps increase? Human manual reloads have the sg doing slighty more than 12% more damage than pistol combo now, David just showed. Like I said before, factor in the increase of dps the ass is doing with the sg, and other team dps and it is even lower. 5%? So to you that 5-7% increase is worth that risk? Smart players don't take unnecessary risks unless they absolutely have to.
  14. ChuckWing

    ChuckWing Member

    Just to clarify, the lvl 8 assault should be 3/2, 1/2. The only way I accept a 3/3, 2/0 is if you're QX'ing a surv nm with a bar and 3 fmjs.
  15. vexxenon

    vexxenon Well-Known Member

    No way, you clearly don't play enough games, all I see you play is LD! As for munt I say let him be and YOLO!

    For the sake of academic numbers, I believe David has shown all the graphs in the world to justify the numbers.

    For the sake of fail-less, sg goes to assault no questions asked.
  16. rockz
    • Donator

    rockz Well-Known Member

    So wait, do these numbers include perception crit chance, or is that ignored?

    Flamer damage should be multiplied by (1+(1-crit%)^7)
    Shotgun damage should be multiplied by (1+(1-crit%)^2)
    Pistol damage should be multiplied by (1+crit%)
  17. David

    David Well-Known Member

    Perception is ignored. You mean 1+(1-(1-crit%)^7) ?
  18. Kith
    • Development Team
    • Designer

    Kith NOTD Staff: Anti-Fun Wizard Skeleton

    3/1, 2/2 Level 8 Master Race. Increasing your magazine size by 40 is way more important than 10% additional damage, especially on Nightmare. Putting more than one point in Crit before Tier 3 is outright wasteful.
  19. David

    David Well-Known Member

    The guns the arms assault uses (flamethrower, shotgun, m45) are not fast enough, nor are the boss fights long enough to gain a 10 percent increase in DPS from an additional 40 bullets. By the time the extra 40 bullets matters (Eos + laser) the tree will be maxed already.

    With the use of an HMG I could see the justification of getting the extra 40 bullets, but we all know the days of giving the arms assault the HMG are more in the past (that may be a discussion for another thread). Chuck's build is for skilled people who can gold reload. For everyone else, you can use a 2/2 tier 2 and be less efficient, but then again we're just nit-picking at this point.
  20. rockz
    • Donator

    rockz Well-Known Member

    Yes, I suppose I do.
    Crit gives you 15% due to the synergy.

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