For Eclair: SMG vs. Flamethrower on Erebos

Discussion in 'NOTD Discussion' started by David, Jun 14, 2012.

  1. David

    David Well-Known Member

    As commando, Eclair claimed that the SMG was the best weapon in the game against Erebos because of +10 bonus damage from armor types biologic, psionic and light (14+10=24 total damage). Popular opinion would consider this to be complete nonsense because of the armor reduction coefficient of the SMG (1.5 per armor) but I thought I would crunch the numbers to figure out the truth.


    Nightmare Mode
    Both Erebos 1 and 2 are under the effects of LD (-5), sensor (-1), and AP (-1) for a total of -7 Armor.

    Armor Calculation:

    Erebos 1 has 12-7 = 5 armor
    (All Erebos have 12 armor with the exception of Erebos 2 in NM)

    Erebos 2 has 12-(10.8)-7 = -5.8 armor
    (NM Ereb 2 is permanently frenzied [Thanks, MSluiter] adding a -10.8 armor debuff)

    Weapon Damage:

    SMG: 14+2+4+4 + (1.5 x 5.8) = 32.7 dmg/shot (Re-added Psionic damage to SMG and M5, thanks Ghost)
    Flamethrower: (8+7)x8 = 120 dmg/shot


    1)8 out of 12 flames hit (standing crowbar distance away at 1.5, the first 4 will miss)
    2)Commando has 30 max in his clip and starts with 30 as soon as he hits adrenaline and fires the first shot
    3)Exactly 5 seconds after hitting adrenaline the commando hits surgical strike to maximize damage
    4)Reload time is based on auto-reload(non-NM) with combo bonus


    This graph depicts the damage done over the 20 second duration of a perfectly executed combo. Graph corrected for proper adrenaline stacking mechanics(Thanks, ArcanePariah).

    Flamethrower: 19k damage
    Crowbar: 17.1k damage (If you're flaming in CB range...better compare it to the real thing)
    M5: 13.1k damage
    Pistol: 12.4k damage
    SMG: 10.7k damage

    This graph depicts the damage done over the 20 second duration of a perfectly executed combo.

    SMG: 21.3k damage
    Flamethrower: 19.0k damage
    Crowbar: 17.1k damage
    Pistol: 16.9k damage
    M5: 14.4k damage


    With -7 armor reduction on NM Erebos 2 you can pull off as much damage as a flamethrower + HE from 2.3 distance (6/12 flames, which in my opinion seems to be the most accurate number of flames hitting since very few Commandos CAN or do stand at crowbar distance when they're flaming). With Erebos' new Vortex attack, it definitely hurts the flamethrower's utility. If we factor in other more uncommon armor debuffs (penetrate, volatile injection, roflman ulti, etc.)the SMG is easily seen as the safest, and most damaging, commando gun for NM Ereb 2.


    In this scenario, Ereb1 -> Flamethrower > M5 > Pistol > SMG
    In this secnario, Ereb2 -> SMG > Flamethrower > Pistol > M5
    In general(12 armor) -> Flamethrower >>> M5 > Pistol >>>>>>>> SMG

    Interesting thing to note

    For the M5 if you press surgical strike right before you reload (which occurs before 5 second time) you will increase total damage by over 1000 due to the M5's relatively long reload time.


    For a Commando using combo:
    - SMG can be considered the best gun for NM Erebos 2
    -Flamer is the most damaging gun against Erebos (with the exception of NM Ereb 2)
    -Choose the M5 if you don't want to use a flamer on Erebos (with the exception of NM Ereb 2)
    -Eclair, Jercy was right, use a fucking flamer
  2. Gattu

    Gattu Well-Known Member

    Flamethrower does 8+7 = 15x10 = 150/shot

    Where did you get the 10 from
  3. MSluiter

    MSluiter Member

    SMG is actually AMAZING vs Ere2 on Nightmare or high Vet regardless of your class. This is because Ere2 is permanently Frenzied. He has almost no armor. Check it out for yourself.

    Also 10 flames seems high. I would guess you’re more likely to be hitting him with 1/3 the length of the flame or like 4 flames. Also Ere2 is not Psionic anymore. He is Light Bio Heroic.

    You may not have noticed the last few time we played but I was using SMG vs Ere2 as Medic. o_O Also, I tend to use the pistol as Commando vs Ere1 for safety reasons. Even though it is not as strong as the flame, it kills Ere really fast and you can deal with Gargoyles and dodge Spore Meteors easier.
  4. David

    David Well-Known Member

    The flamethrower shoots 12 individual flames which together compose the single stream of fire you see. The range of each flame depends on the total range of the flamer. So for example the regular flamer has 4.65 range. Divide 4.65/12 = .3875. Each flame length is .3875 to compose the 4.65 total range. In my calculations I say the first 2 flames coming directly out of the flamethrower do not hit Ereb because they are too short. Leaving 10 out of 12 flames to pass through Ereb. To simplify things I could have just done 15*12 but I was trying to give the SMG a chance to win. You probably would have to be sitting on Ereb to have all 12 hit.
  5. MSluiter

    MSluiter Member

    Or just check the Wiki : ) ... que_Splash
  6. Jercy

    Jercy Well-Known Member

    Nicely said David.

    As long as you have a tank with half a mind there is pretty much no danger in standing on top or nearly on top of Ere with the expection of exploding spores. Pretty much anyone with a flamerthrower should be using it on Ere.
  7. Emperor

    Emperor New Member

    I don't see why this paperwork and number crunching is even necessary. Anyone who has played Commando knows that a Flamethrower will bring him down faster than an SMG, you can see this with those two things in your face known as eyes. We used to do just that, experiment on what types of weapons to use for whatever, and there's a reason we concluded the Flamethrower was the baddest fucking gun around, along with the Shotgun.

    More over:


    Also Ere is a giant pussy now, especially Ere 2. I'd hump the shit out of it with a Flamethrower and have constant 45% damage reduction on whatever he does in a normal game with a normal Fort Demo and Ops Comm.
  8. spartanhija

    spartanhija Member

    Lol i love this fuckin guy

  9. ArcanePariah
    • Development Team
    • Map Developer

    ArcanePariah Miracle Worker

    Actually I must ask on the graph how you calculated the attack speed buildup of Adrenaline.

    The PRIMARY reason flamer is so insanely good on opcomm has jack all to do with the actual damage. It is the intersection of 2 counter intuitive things, how Flamer works, and how Adrenaline works.

    Normal player would assume that Flamer does 8 + 7 damage per attack, when, as discussed above, it's really (8 + 7) * # of flames hitting him. Secondly, normal player would assume that a full stack Adrenaline gives +180% attack speed. In reality, each stack computes the bonus based on CURRENT attack speed, not BASE attack speed. So instead of a linear buildup, its an exponential buildup, with end result of 1.06^30 - 1 or 475% attack speed bonus. The intersection is that for each "flame" that hits, counts for 1 stack of adrenaline. So reaching a max stack of adrenaline with flamer takes a grand total of maybe 4 attacks (assuming 8 flames connect each time), and going from first attack to 2nd increases the attack speed dramatically, making the total time to reach maxed out adrenaline somewhere inside like 4 seconds, if that.

    Number crunch leads to 1st attack giving bonus 50% attack speed, 2nd attack has you at +150% attack speed, 3rd attack at 300% and final one maxing you out at 475%.
  10. David

    David Well-Known Member

    I used a 6 percent increase off base weapon speed every stack. Looks like I'm going to need to re-calculate, this makes things much more interesting. Thanks for the catch AP. Even using base-weapon speed the flamethrower hits max adrenaline the fastest by the 4th shot. I'm going to redo the graph, and remove psionic damage from M5 and SMG, while removing all armor and reducing flames hit to 8. Hopefully we see a nice exponential curve at at the beginning. And Emperor the only reason I crunch the numbers (other than for my own interest) is because the facts don't lie. It's hard to convince someone to change their opinion based on your own opinion.
  11. Lyanden

    Lyanden Well-Known Member

    Someone should really make a stickied flamethrower post with Nite's bowser pic on it.

    Consider it's one of his most productive legacies. heh
  12. Froblock

    Froblock Well-Known Member

    Still agreed and will always agree about flaming the living shit out of Ere.
    And what? Erebos is weak against SMG now?

    Erebos' armor should always stay at 12 to show niggas that not every fucking weapon
    works for every fucking thing. Like a 12 armored boss or a roach, agron, slasher, etc.
    Its a submachine gun for fucks sake. NOT EVEN A REAL MACHINE GUN.
  13. Ghost
    • Warden

    Ghost Warden

    Erebos was temporarily not psionic. He is psionic again since 2 weeks.
  14. David

    David Well-Known Member

  15. David

    David Well-Known Member

    Alright, added Psionic damage back in and it's surprisingly significant. From a non-commando point of view (in nightmare) the order is SMG > M5 = Flamer > Pistol (depending on HE and the fact that you probably would rather stand a fair distance away from Erebos.
  16. Lyanden

    Lyanden Well-Known Member

    SMG does bonus vs psionic now? how'd it get that high up on the ranking?
    Or is it just pure DPS wise? Because ammo per damage dealt, I'm thinking SMG would be somewhere near bottom.

    Nevermind, just saw the 0 armor Ere tendency. He does use that too often.

    Still though, ammo should be considered in these computations. Especially since ammo management is one of the key elements in this game (especially in higher difficulties)
  17. Ghost
    • Warden

    Ghost Warden

    Well, ammo management used to be an issue but since the ammo bug was fixed, you kind of never run out even with 2 people using smg and barrett for everything right off the bat.

    DPS wise, SMG is generally near the top for a lot of things with -ammo mods, but it eats ammo like no tomorrow. DPA (damage per ammo), its pretty low.
  18. Lulz

    Lulz Well-Known Member

    now i may not be reading into this enough and may be missing something... but what about armor reductions like ld/scv pentrate/ap ammo which all infact were used for this battle. Obviously not saying smg was better for this case since clair had he + EMP WAS A FUCKING EXPLO DEMO WITH FV. but i wonder how this changes the chart? say even with level 1 ld + penetrate + ap thats -7 armor which should add 7 damage per shot? or am i just missing things completely =/
  19. Lyanden

    Lyanden Well-Known Member

    ammo bug? do tell... I've been unable to play for a bit due to my new (and allegedly improved.. MEH) schedule
  20. Ghost
    • Warden

    Ghost Warden

    Ya know, back in the older days mags which were preplaced and those you started with would always not give you 3 mags for the last mag in a stack.

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