Focus Fire as a toggle

Discussion in 'Archive' started by Kith, Apr 18, 2013.

  1. Ability
    • Development Team
    • NOTD Creator

    Ability NOTD Creator

    Focus Fire will not be toggled. It's a pretty straightforward button to click and we want to reward effort/micro. New players can still use a Rifleman relatively effectively without intensive use of Focused Fire. Good players get to maximize it.
  2. Scorpione

    Scorpione Well-Known Member

    Stop comparing this to AM please. Its not AM 2.0 so I don't see why it keeps on being mentioned.
    Remember toogles that work in -energy per second = u don't regen energy = even more intense energy management. If anything this sounds harder than it already is.
    What yuey said is true. You can't even get to use something like pshot effectively unless 2arcs. The only thing people use is traps and repulse. Crippling fire is rather useless(thanks to focus fire default penalties), same goes for saline. Pshot is ok but drains energy especially since it needs FF. Traps and repulse only thing used. Out of 5 talents most only want to get 2. Most trees only have 1. Surv has more. Think of changes for that instead of crifle which is fine.
  3. QuantumMech

    QuantumMech Well-Known Member

    These energy problems you speak of, I do not see them. During the tournament I palyed surv rofl, so, surv rofl with only 100 energy, and the ONLY time I ran into a serious energy crisis was when I was running civs and things started to go after me and I used just about everything in relatively close succession. Pshot is cheap, 10-15 energy, with focus fire being 8 or 9. Fun little fact about roflman, in the time he uses ff, he gains almost all the energy back (except 1). and traps? Sure if you have to place 3 or more in a single hold out (and didn't place them before) it would be a problem, but I don't see the energy problem with ff, or surv rofl. Pshot is cheap, it is spammable, and it stuns when done with ff, so why not use it.
  4. Kith
    • Development Team
    • Designer

    Kith NOTD Staff: Anti-Fun Wizard Skeleton

    In a sense it is because NOTD is a series. Series tend to have similar aspects in relation to previous games and also tend to work off of a "if it's not broken, don't fix it" sort of mindset. Aftermath is arguably the most popular and fleshed out installation, so there's nothing wrong with learning from its examples and attempting to follow in its footsteps. That is why it keeps getting mentioned.
  5. brizingr5

    brizingr5 Member

    I just skipped from like the 5th post to make this reply because it seems like it would fix the problem:
    Allow for an "auto-cast" (like when you right-click on a skill and it keeps auto casting). With this, we wouldn't have to rebalance energy drain, and it would still give you the same effect as a toggle.

    I'll edit and post more when I'm done reading/come across something else important that wasn't resolved.
  6. Scorpione

    Scorpione Well-Known Member

    I'd prefer a toogle than that. Auto cast is rock bottom.
  7. brizingr5

    brizingr5 Member

    Why is autocast so bad?
  8. Ramses II
    • Donator

    Ramses II Help, I can't change my title!

    Autocast makes sense in two situations:
    1. you have a ton of different guys to control and it would be absolutely ridiculous to use all of them at one time
    2. its a skill that you have to cast individually for every time you attack (like searing arrows or frost arrows from Wc3)
    This is neither of those situations, and having proper timing is a huge part of NOTD that we would lose entirely with autocast.
  9. brizingr5

    brizingr5 Member

    The whole reason why Kith made this thread was because he noticed a comparable increase in difficulty to other classes from the rifleman, a class that was designed to be easy and sort of ease people into the game, so he suggested changing the mechanics of a skill so that you wouldn't have to constantly pay attention to it, allowing your attention to focus more on other, more important things, but not fall too far behind.

    What auto-casting was designed for from the base Starcraft game was, to my knowledge, for the medic and other units with a "heal-beam." It has a high "rate of fire" but a low effect to imitate an "effect-over-time" sort of thing. More importantly, it was used to create a behavior, where medics would "agro" units nearer to them to force the heal.

    In most custom games, auto-casting is used to have a "burst-effect" (something that happens at one particular time) occur passively. Some custom maps allow for auto-emptying a nydus worm to create an army (Heaven Besieged), while others use it for resource conversion mechanics (Last Stand Alpha), and others can use it for upgrades in the background.

    For our game, for the sake of keeping Rifleman the "training-wheels" class, there's really no problem with including auto-casting on it to take attention off of it. If you don't like it, perhaps we could use that same recruit mode trigger to remove the ability to use it (over 500 xp you can't auto-cast anything). The reason I suggested it was because this way, you could still do your "toggle and forget" to be noob friendly without the issue of re-balancing energy consumption and skill effect from turning into a true toggle skill (like cloak).
  10. Lyanden

    Lyanden Well-Known Member

    The rifleman is a beginner class that was designed with
    "low micro = easy to use/viable,
    high micro = can tango with the higher tier classes" mindset.

    There is no reason to make it more 'newbie friendly' (check definition of NewB vs noob).
    As Ability stated, you don't "NEED" to do the high micro thing to play rifleman. But doing lotsa micro will reward you well. It is part of the progression of learning the class and forming a mindset in NOTD.

    To make a class work differently as suggested above after an exp level falls dangerously near "counterintuitive".

    I like it as it is because I like the more micro = better results. This, more than a lot of the other classes, allows the rifleman to have more tiers interms of effectiveness relative to the player/user experience/skill.
    And this is coming someone with only 3 fingers left on his left sensation deprived hand. heh

    True, holding/spamming F does not really constitute as "high micro", but you'd be surprised to see how many new players barely use it (just look at the tip of their guns for how often the red light is on).
    It's more mid micro if you think about it, but still "higher" micro.

    And I agree with Kith, it's not a single skill that determines 'high/low' micro required anyway.
    It's the combination of all the class's tools. X>F Sprint, precise position clicking, A + left click ground, Spam "F", Nade while F is on or Prec Shot while F is active etc. all consistently being made to work in concert with each other for an hour and a half but that's precisely the 'beauty' of the rifleman.

    Do it normally, and you contribute to the team. Do it well and you get what QuantumMech usually achieves, outkilling the Commando even when nukes are out.

    Ladder-wise, It's kinda like Larvae inject/Calldown Mules.

    Show Spoiler
    If anything, I feel we can put some more thought being needed in using it over the simplistic "I need to use this constantly", you could apply the same properties the DPS assault's conc fire (formerly suppressive fire) has into the rifleman's "F";
    a longer duration than its cool down.

    If you just spam the skill, you 'waste' energy. To be energy efficient, you would have to actually integrate into muscle memory the duration + time to renew the self buff. Though doing this might require that the skills be buffed a tad, like maybe a net energy loss of zero if timed right with 5 or so int.

    We should not be ashamed of the gunslinger tree's ease of use enough to warrant nerfing the micro requirements of another class.
  11. Scorpione

    Scorpione Well-Known Member

    Pf should be a starter class. SInce its soo ez to use :D.
    That's easy to do. The amount of times I've got level 11 before a mando was 9 and I had 3x kills. ahhhh Good whoring times.
  12. Kith
    • Development Team
    • Designer

    Kith NOTD Staff: Anti-Fun Wizard Skeleton

    Actually if we made it more newbie friendly more people would be inclined to continue playing the game. You had other valid points, but you act like making something more newbie friendly is a bad idea and it's really not.
  13. Ramses II
    • Donator

    Ramses II Help, I can't change my title!

    Yes, but making it more newbie friendly in this way does nothing to increase the appeal and increase the retainment percentage. Focus fire is something that the average newbie will discover by the end of the game (assuming they survive), and a minor goal they will subconsciously make. Having it as a toggle just makes the game easier and more boring, and gives the impression to new players that there is a specific point at which you really can't do any better, and they're already pretty close to that.
  14. Ginger Gerald

    Ginger Gerald Well-Known Member

    Last I checked, most "newbie friendly" classes in games have generally have lower skill ceilings that somewhat hinder them from competing with classes that require more experience. Which, makes sense, but often deters people from playing the more newb friendly classes.

    I still think the Rifleman and focus fire are fine.
    • Agree Agree x 1
  15. Scorpione

    Scorpione Well-Known Member

    That is most of the time the case.
    There's a reason why all noobs love pf ;)
    Also you have recruit mode with rifle when u start. How much more noobie friendly can you get? -em? :)
  16. brizingr5

    brizingr5 Member

    Honestly, the "noob friendly" classes that new players are often designated to use (rifl, recon, marksman, occasionally fo) all have incredibly high skill cielings, but are straight forward for playing them to begin with and being able to contribute to the team. Obviously with a rifleman, you can go above and beyond by knowing how/when to manage your energy and to use which skills to maximize your dps and such. With recon, lazer designating and flaring are a semi-pro (honestly just means you're actually doing the entirety of your job, but so many people don't) and properly scouting, putting your huge inventory to use. Marksman energy concervation, positioning, knowing when to whore and not, etc. You can tell teh difference between a good and bad mm. FO skill changes a lot based on multi-unit micro, but also being experienced with the map to use arty and when.

    With all of the "noob" classes, it's more than obvious when you have a pro/noob playing it, so I kind of have to say that the skill cieling is really irrelavent, and putting a toggle/auto-cast on focus fire won't change that cieling. For crofl, you really SHOULDN'T use the auto-cast because weapons proficiency increases the time focus fire lasts by 2 seconds, but its cooldown is still only 5, so you have 2 seconds wasted, wasting more energy.
  17. Ginger Gerald

    Ginger Gerald Well-Known Member

    Newb, as in "newbie". Not noob as in "bad player".
    In AC and Sec games, the roles I see given to the newer players are usually the easiest ones they can get, aka, recon or rofl. The people who know what they're doing pick the tank and the medic. The mm goes to usually whoever calls it since it's not a particularly hard class to play as long as you keep up.

    Recon is a class that isn't particularly hard to use, and most newbs can get the hang of it fairly quickly (a class that people only use pretty much only LD and flares in higher difficulties).

    MM is not a newb friendly class, it's powerful, but slow as hell, reliant on energy, incredibly fragile, and potentially dangerous to the team with mono.

    FO isn't a particularly hard class from my experience, at least the way people play, 3 minis then Artillery, and I don't really see a potentially high skill ceiling outside of proper management of minis.

    I would argue that skill ceiling is entirely relevant, as the potential level a class can reach has a decent impact on how often people will play that class. Not a lot of people want to play a class that never goes anywhere. Isn't that one of the reasons people dislike gunslinger PF? Because you'll be as good with it as you're ever gonna get with it, after a few games? It lacks a potential.

    I've already more or less stated my point on subject being that I feel FF is fine the way it is.
    Also, Ability already stated FF won't be turned into a toggle, so to be honest I'm don't know why this conversation is still continuing.
  18. Scorpione

    Scorpione Well-Known Member

    This conversation has derailed like most others :D I blame that guy for reviving the thread :p

    Show Spoiler
    Recon isn't hard. But I've seen 0 people use him correctly. I hardly see backstab being used. Most SS are placed in shitty manner, always missing 1/2 players when they are in a 4/6radius circle, placing a ss to get them all isn't hard yet people don't do it. LDing isn't hard, just need pay attention.
    Mobcon most don't know its use.

    Amm is very newb friendly. All you do is osok, until you are 9 no-one cares about your presence. Mono isn't hard to use at all.
    Smm isn't newb friendly since it requires many things, energy management, reloading, positioning, targeting blah blah.

    FO arty is not hard. You are just squishy alone. Play with team you do stun/dmg and slow. 100% team effective without much rocket science needed. All you need is aim ad team awareness.
    Minis are retarded, steal xp, serve usually 0 team use and I will always make them disappear. Require 0 skills. Could argue mini positioning, well just kite works too.

    Guns PF lacks like arms assault. The simplicity of those 2 classes is annoying. Arms I can tolerate, its a starter class. a "60k xp" class being so easy is silly. And jumps aren't any harder either. I mean both chem tree require much more, always felt like that should be the 10k not the pf.
  19. brizingr5

    brizingr5 Member

    ^this spoiler

    Ability said no toggle, not no auto-casting. It was argued that by making "new player friendly" classes easier, you decrease the skill cieling for those who want to go above and beyond with those classes, but both Scorp and I have just given evidence to prove that wrong. Even in adding the toggle, even if you don't remove the toggle after a certain xp level, you still have the addition of concerving energy by delaying the activation of it after upgrading weapons proficency to take advantage of the 2 second overlap between activation and cooldown.

    Personally I don't see a problem with including psuedo-auto-pilot features for new players to take the load off of skill usage so they can focus more on mechanics and tactics of the game, but I do agree that they should be taken off after a certain point, sort of like releasing the training wheels.
  20. Mirage
    • Donator

    Mirage ಠ_ಠ What are you looking at?

    Let's just equip rifleman with AP's AI, problem solved.
    • Like Like x 1

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