Focus Fire as a toggle

Discussion in 'Archive' started by Kith, Apr 18, 2013.

  1. Kith
    • Development Team
    • Designer

    Kith NOTD Staff: Anti-Fun Wizard Skeleton

    So, here's the deal. With examining the Gunslinger Pathfinder recently, I've come to the conclusion that the Pathfinder is way too easy for his skill class of 10k exp requirement. After that, I got to thinking: Is the Rifleman too hard?

    The Combat Rifleman is incredibly micro intensive. Mashing the various short-lived buffs to keep everything in motion is hard to keep up with. In comparison to the other DPSes, I'd even go so far as to venture that the Combat Rifleman is the hardest to keep up with on an active basis, when theoretically he should be the easiest. The Survival Rifleman does not suffer from the same problem, but one similar. While he is the caster variant, he's also got a lot to keep track of.

    To that end, I would suggest that Focus Fire become a toggled ability that drains 0.25 to 0.75 energy per second. Fire Up nor Crippling Fire should not increase this amount, as the Rifleman will already be draining significant energy by having this active.
  2. Scorpione

    Scorpione Well-Known Member

    Hows rifle hard to keep up with? With combat u require to manage energy especially if u go nades. You won't even use focus fire when bloodlust unless boss or something. Survival doesn't spare energy to use FF. Main reason Pshot isn't used. Drains energy hard unless 2 arcs. Exactly like pf. Rifle doesn't require good micro etc mainly requires good management of energy and snap decision making. The rifle is fine as it is tbh. + toogles r lame
  3. Kith
    • Development Team
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    Kith NOTD Staff: Anti-Fun Wizard Skeleton

    It's hard to keep up with by comparison to an Arms Assault or a Marksman or the Pathfinder or even the Combat Engineer in some respects. The Rifleman requires a much higher APM than most classes, and while it didn't seem that bad when I designed it in the first place I'm seeing now that it's a little excessive.

    Focus Fire becoming a toggle will simply cut down on the "remember to hit x every y seconds" so the player can focus more on your cited "snap decisions".
  4. Scorpione

    Scorpione Well-Known Member

    How so exactly? yes requires more apm than pf definitely. Don't see how it requires more apm than a mm. With assa dps is similar. Engi dps doesn't really require any micro.
    These following classes are the ones I dislike playing: assa dps, pf guns, rifle combat, recon. Reason being? They are to simple for my personal taste. Personally speaking those do not require a high micro. Something like a mm or mando requires micro. Don't see where the micro is on rifle, when u don't shoot that fast and only press 2 buttons every set time. U can program yourself how long after the 1st time you hit FF you need to hit it again. If necessary you will do. However that's how i personally see it. Others can input their opinion and/or if im wrong. I just speak from experience from playing class
  5. Niktos

    Niktos Well-Known Member

    Having it drain energy per shot will make it obsolete with faster guns like smg/laser as sudenly one 'cycle' as it is now will drain at least twice of what it does now, not changing all that much on barret or other slow powerfull weapons. It could be toggle if it needs to be made easier but make it drain/s regardless of shooting with some starting cost.
  6. Kith
    • Development Team
    • Designer

    Kith NOTD Staff: Anti-Fun Wizard Skeleton

    A SubMM has about the same amount of APM, but an AMM has it easy. Assault DPS may be similar, but an Assault has a way easier time than a Rifleman. I play Assault often, and doing a couple games of Combat? I got frustrated, fast. FF doesn't last very long, so if I'm trying to combo a skill it's a pain. I'm trying to cut down on the button-mashing and make it easier to use Grenades/Precision.

    Niktos, that's a good point. Energy drained per second would probably be a lot better than energy per shot.
  7. MissHumpz
    • Event Coordinator
    • Community Leader

    MissHumpz NOTD Staff: Event Coordinator & Amazing Amazer

    I agree with Niktos in regards to adapting the energy per shot, similar to PO's blackout ability, which in my opinion, PO's blackout is its least value ability due to the rate it saps energy. I know PO is a caster and has to reserve energy efficiently in order to have a large energy pool available for whatever scenario, so why it has such an energy sapping ability? It restricts weapon choice or just doesn't get used at all and becomes obsolete. Fast firing guns, such as the HMG, SMG, etc. are always high priority for combat ROFL, so focus fire would not last very long if energy is sapped per shot. However, energy sapped per second would be a different story, and players would have to be mindful of how long they leave their ability active.

    I do have a few questions on what kind of 'restrictions' you would give Focus Fire if you do choose to make it drain energy during its activation, would there be a change to this ability's cooldown and initial cast cost?
  8. Kith
    • Development Team
    • Designer

    Kith NOTD Staff: Anti-Fun Wizard Skeleton

    The suggestion is a drain per second rather than per shot now.

    I wouldn't put a cost on its cast or give it a cooldown. Energy drain and a movement speed reduction is more than enough in my opinion.
  9. Ginger Gerald

    Ginger Gerald Well-Known Member

    Would there be a damage change to FF?
    I'm pretty against a movement speed reduction while FF is active, mainly because of times where I'm getting chased by something and I want to activate FF while I'm running, then stop and turn around to blast their face off.

    With FF dropping MS while it's activate, the motion would go more like: stop, toggle FF, shoot, toggle ff, sprint away.... It would reduce the micro of FF in holdouts, but significantly increase it while on the move and trying to avoid enemies. For kiting, you would have to constantly be toggling it on and off to be effective, and then make sure you remember to turn it on/off.

    I feel FF is pretty much fine the way it is.
  10. Scorpione

    Scorpione Well-Known Member

    What ginger said is true. You wouldn't really make it easier. You would just revert its use. Instead of being great for kiting n frustrating for holding now its like having the opposite. Frankly I prefer people didn't get lazy with classes. So its not exactly easier but rather a change to current way of playing it. The only time I find crifle annoying to play is when I have no p45/sg. Which makes me get granades which then makes me rage since no arc lol. I feel like a toogle for an ability spammed until level 9 promotes lazyness too much.
    I agree with what humpz said also. Blackout is nice but rapes the energy so much no point having it. Since regen low too rather pointless.
  11. Thermidor

    Thermidor Well-Known Member

    Strongly agree with this. I also think FF is fine as it is. But if it really needs to be a toggle ability, then remove the MS penalty at least, especially since it is energy per second now rather than per shot.
  12. Archangel

    Archangel Well-Known Member

    I disagree.

    If anyone has ever been in a live fire situation; The faster you move, the less accurate you are. Hence why most people slow down to fire to aim down their sights. "Focusing" requires careful aiming, slowing your heart rate, reducing movement. Leave the movement penalty.
  13. Ginger Gerald

    Ginger Gerald Well-Known Member

    I feel that that is a terrible idea. Although it's realistic, it's terrible for the gameplay. And if you're going by realism, then it makes even less sense for the survival rifleman's crippling fire reduce the movement speed penalty.
  14. Yuey
    • Warden

    Yuey Warden

    Eh? How is C.Rifle micro intensive? The entire game you have at most 2 spells to keep track of and most of the time its mindlessly spamming F and W/E depending on which tier you're on. Not to mention Weapons Proficiency synchs Focus Fire to Bloodlust so you just cycle spam W and F every 10 seconds and reload whenever you can. Hardly micro intensive. The only real problem with Rifle is energy conservation and that's just to make Rifle a bit more complex and rewarding for players that know how to use him.

    At least combat engy requires you to spam hotkeys on two different units, both of which do not have cooldowns that synch nicely, as well as target firing to get the most out of synergy. As for assault, I guess he is easier to use since his cooldowns are slightly bit longer and his passives lend to that well but then again, Assault is also a starter class so he should be as easy or easier than Rofl.

    Toggling is terrible because it only reduces things to do on a character that doesn't have much to do to begin with during holdouts. Also, MS penalty would hurt newbies more who'll just toggle to see what it does, leave it on because HOLY SHIT 20 thousand things at once on the screen and just die from the MS loss. I would say if you want to fix something about rifle, fix SurvRofl. He has 5 active talents and needs a colossal juggling act to even begin to use any of them regularly. Definitely newbie unfriendly.
  15. Kith
    • Development Team
    • Designer

    Kith NOTD Staff: Anti-Fun Wizard Skeleton

    SurvRofl is fine, because those 5 talents are not all required to be used at the same time. They are all situational things.

    CombatRifle is the most micro intensive of the three starting classes, and that's solely because of the fact that Focus Fire's duration is so short. IN THE BEGINNING, and by the beginning I mean :AM, Focus Fire was a toggle that increased damage and attack speed at the cost of movement speed. That's it. No energy cost, just movement. The Rifleman didn't have much to do there either (even less, actually), but it was never to the class's detriment. There's always so much going on in NOTD, I don't see why it would be an issue to cut out one of the more spammy skills and replace it with one that does the exact same thing with a less frustrating method of activating it. I played the Combat Rifleman and felt like suddenly I was playing the QTE character, and I really dislike that.

    Nothing in the lower modes moves fast enough to keep up with a Rifleman, even one with a 10% movespeed penalty. This would only serve to benefit the new players, as the penalty would not be significant enough to get them killed. What this WOULD do, however, is act to the detriment of the higher tier players because that's where all of the super fast stuff is.
  16. Ginger Gerald

    Ginger Gerald Well-Known Member

    AM had increased mobility, defendable locations were not "traps" if you didn't have enough dps because you could always just jump off ledges to escape, if I remember correctly one of the classes could build barricades to prevent enemies from getting to you, if I also remember correctly, AM had a revive system of sorts.

    Also Kith, the way you're presenting your reason sounds like personal bias to me.

    Ghouls, mutas, seekers, and to some extend stalkers can easily keep up with with a Rifleman, even ones that are sprinting while holding their fire. All of which deal fairly high damage compared to their durability and speed.

    You also didn't appear to touch on my statement about the jump in micro when on the move.
  17. Kith
    • Development Team
    • Designer

    Kith NOTD Staff: Anti-Fun Wizard Skeleton

    Increased mobility: Yes.
    Barricades: No.
    Revive: Hell no. You got a pet, yes, but that was WAY less useful than the one we have now.

    And you're damn right it's a personal bias - when I decided to play the Rifleman for shits and giggles I was kind of surprised to experience how spammy the Combat Rofl was, and I dislike the fact that it's accepted that you're supposed to "go through the motions" of keeping buffs up as opposed to using them when they're needed (assault and commando, for instance).

    And no, I missed your post about movement micro. I apologize, but I don't really agree with it. An additional button press to turn it off is not that big of a deal.

    Either way, I have a feeling people would be less opposed to the idea if there wasn't a movement speed penalty involved. Considering it already drains energy, I don't really mind taking away the movement speed loss while it's active.
  18. Ginger Gerald

    Ginger Gerald Well-Known Member

    Hmmm...Then what am I thinking of?

    I would consider that part of the learning curve and transition from class to class. The roflman, supposed to be the most basic of basic classes, has spammable skills. It's what most people playing the class for the first time would probably do anyway. If anything, I would say that the toggle should go to the assault, since he's supposed to keep up something of a "steady" stream of firepower, at least during holdouts and boss fights. The commando has more bursty damage, and lacks the critical strike chance of the others, so it would make sense to use his at the right times.

    Its the motion of stopping, toggling on FF for the damage so you can hopefully kill whatever is coming at you (or deal as much damage as possible), knifing, toggling FF off so you can move again, sprinting and possibly holding fire, and then doing it again.

    That is more or less the case. My issue with a toggle is that it's more or less a "fire and forget" at certain areas, but with a negative effect, the "forget" part is significantly more important. You'd also have to manage keeping your firepower up in an attempt to kill whatever is coming so you don't have to run away, and dropping your firepower so you can actually run away.

    I'm also worried about potential value changes that could occur with the switch. Passives and toggles have different values than actives simply because of their functionality.
  19. Kith
    • Development Team
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    Kith NOTD Staff: Anti-Fun Wizard Skeleton

    You are potentially thinking of Reinforcements, which is essentially the same deal as Charlie Company.

    It teaches the bad habit of spamming skills. Rifleman is the only class that has a spam-heavy skill, and I dislike that.

    There would be no value changes. I'm looking to make it more accessible, not increase or decrease its impact.
  20. HipHopDragon
    • Warden

    HipHopDragon Warden

    Once you get weapons proficiency its the same as assa concentrated fire, 5sec cd 7sec duration. If you think thats to much work make it 8sec base duration, with weapons profiencecy 10sec, then its the same as bloodlust.

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