Flamethrower's Frenzy Stacking with other Skills?

Discussion in 'NOTD Discussion' started by Ability, Apr 14, 2012.

  1. Ability
    • Development Team
    • NOTD Creator

    Ability NOTD Creator

    Atm, Frenzy builds stacks on Burst Fire. Some of suggested it stacks with other abilities/flamers. My concern is balance, reducing focus with Burst Fire/Frenzy and unnecessary buff counts (adding to map processing). Again, need some good ideas.
  2. Nicarco
    • Warden
    • Donator

    Nicarco Warden

    You could make it on hit with burst fire instead of building it on units killed by burst fire.
  3. ArcturusV

    ArcturusV New Member

    The way to keep it balanced is to avoid what smart/cheesy Flamethrowers can do right now. Burst fire to get Frenzy Stacks, then use the Frenzy Stacks with something like a Barrett, Heavy Machinegun, etc for maximum carnage. So have it so it has some check so that it only works with having the Flamethrower equipped.

    Yeah the Flamethrower is King of DPS, but it's also intrinsically balanced with short range, relatively low base rate of fire, longer than average reloads, and rewards better micro so this shouldn't be a problem.

    But even with limiting it to Flamethrower Only (Least for Damage and Attack Speed), I wouldn't suggest that it procs on Hits from Burst Fire. It would make it so that the obvious, best choice for anyone who isn't a complete knob to go 3 Igniter, and 1 Burst Fire just for the Frenzy hits instead of the use as a damage skill.

    Now, if we buff Burst Fire with the vs. Light, that will be one hand towards fixing it. The other I can think of is per "hit" with BURN! (Which is underutilized in Alpha Company). So as you stack on Burn! damage ticks you get a Frenzy Stack. So you could get Frenzy by killing with Burst Fire, or dealing damage with Burn! This allows the Flamethrower to still be able to get his buffs during Alpha Company boss battles, where typically he cannot right now either due to a lack of spawns (Cerberus, IVAX, Cromo), or the spawns being so heavy that Burst Fire is more a matter of lucky timing due to the high HP of the enemies (Perses, Demeter).
  4. Kith
    • Development Team
    • Designer

    Kith NOTD Staff: Anti-Fun Wizard Skeleton

    I'm speaking with Ability over Skype right now, and I've got this to suggest:

    100% chance of getting a stack of Frenzy when killing a unit with Burst Fire
    100% chance of getting a stack of Frenzy when killing a unit with BURN
    35% chance of getting a stack of Frenzy when killing a unit with Inferno
  5. ArcturusV

    ArcturusV New Member

    Hmm...

    It's actually kind of hard to get kills with Burn! due to how the damage ramps up and the tick speed on the attack. It only really works well to get the kill itself is on targets like the Titans or Agrons. Knowing that Burn puts down Immortals for good, I have tried to snipe them out before with Burn, it just doesn't work for the reasons listed. In part why I suggested on the damage ticks instead.

    Edit: I shouldn't say "Kind of hard" I should mean "Damned near impossible without a lot of luck", not like you can really micro it out to make sure you get the last hit or anything.
  6. Lord NiteShade
    • Wiki Founder
    • Community Leader

    Lord NiteShade NOTD Staff: Wiki Founder/TeamSpeak Admin

    Either buff the damage of burst fire so you get more stacks of Frenzy (because you are better at killing).

    Make it so you gain a stack of frenzy for any unit effected by Burst fire, although not necessarily killed, so you get points for trying.

    Or, leave Burst fire-Frenzy relationship alone and make the other skills add stacks of frenzy.

    Burn is an antiboss/antibig target skill. It does not generate many, if at all, kills. Its primarily for constant streams of damage that may/may not deliver the kill. Its also helpful because of the armor loss. If anything, a BURN kill should add several stacks of frenzy, especially if it kills a Massive or Heroic unit.

    Inferno on the other hand is precarious. It would become even more of a Burst Fire replacement if it added stacks of frenzy for every kill. One good inferno could literally generate a full stack of frenzy. This damage boost would then make other infernos stronger, making subsequent infernos much easier to get kills, and therefore maintain this crazy damage. It would totally eclipse Burst fire in every way but sustainability. And even then, Infernos sheer damage output would be so much higher, sustainability is a non-issue.
  7. ArcturusV

    ArcturusV New Member

    Also I agree with Nite on the Inferno issue. That and I generally don't like random effects so much in the field of skill synergy. I mean, sure, it's acceptable in passives like Critical Strikes or Endurance Lives. But there seems kind of something... inherently "Well fuck you", in setting up a situation to perfectly exploit a skill, then getting nothing out of it because the dice didn't favor you.
  8. Seeky

    Seeky New Member

    Using Kith's idea, maybe we could balance frenzy stack for BURN by making it give one stack for every 4 hits of BURN?
  9. Kith
    • Development Team
    • Designer

    Kith NOTD Staff: Anti-Fun Wizard Skeleton

    While using BURN, gain 1 stack of frenzy every 2 seconds. Inferno, instead of being chance based, can be based on how many kills you get. Let's say for every 3 kills made with Inferno, you get a Frenzy stack.
  10. ArcturusV

    ArcturusV New Member

    I find both prospects acceptable. Though The Man made some rumbling which sounded like the Inferno idea there might be a coding nightmare. Sad, but if that's what's we have to deal with, c'est la vie.
  11. ArcturusV

    ArcturusV New Member

    *shrug* I dunno. Sounded like he was saying something about how he'd have to octo code it for every player and such. Possible but intensive.

    But either way, doesn't sound like a bad idea.

    Other idea...

    Any way to code it so Frenzy itself boosts Burst Fire? I mean Burst Fire itself is already fairly hard to use. Actually being able to build it up would further set it apart from Inferno being a strictly better version.
  12. Reaper

    Reaper Moderator/The Crimsonrine

    Hows about every flaming type of death near to the Flamethrower gives him a stack?

    And by every "flaming type of death" I mean every killing thing that causes targets to burn being Flamethrower Mk-3s, Stingers, Nano Sear, Tactical Nuke etc...

    Maybe a bit hard to code and each value bonus from a stack can be changed for balance.
  13. Ability
    • Development Team
    • NOTD Creator

    Ability NOTD Creator

  14. Reaper

    Reaper Moderator/The Crimsonrine

    Why not have Burn! have an AoE affect?

    Targets near the main take damage or units in between the Flamethrower and the target are gonna get scorched. Counts as a kill towards Burn!.
  15. ArcturusV

    ArcturusV New Member

    Certainly a handsome and smart co conspirator you have there.

    I still would like to see some method for the Flamethrower to get at least some Frenzy buffs during the Boss Fights, which is nigh impossible as things stand right now. Just seems strange since that's the Pyro Flamethrower's main source of DPS really. It'd be akin to saying an Arms Assault can't use Blood Frenzy on Heroics.

    Maybe if Burst Fire had a "Add 5 stacks of Frenzy if it hits a Heroic" trigger. I mean Heroic Units aren't going to be killed by Burst Fire. And getting close enough to Burst Fire things like Titans considering you have almost no defensive talents should be an acceptable risk.

    Edit: This is mostly an issue in Alpha Company, where he belongs, I realize. Other storylines don't really have a shortage of mooks accompanying their bosses for the most part. But Alpha Company has almost nothing, excepting Agrons, which you won't have Inferno for during Demeter, and the heavy stuff during Perses, which are pretty damned hard to kill with anything other than Burn! (Which you should probably be using on Perses for the most part instead).
  16. Kith
    • Development Team
    • Designer

    Kith NOTD Staff: Anti-Fun Wizard Skeleton

    Because that would make bossfights laughable. Seth would become simple - his SCVs would be crisped. Cronus's huggers would also be destroyed, and Perses' ambient spawns would have massively reduced effectiveness. Holding out vs. the Titan waves would also become a simple affair: Drop BURN on the one in the middle, watch them all die. The problem increases exponentially when you think about multiple Pyros dropping Burn on a boss and making them immolate everything in the immediate area. Burn is basically perfectly fine as it is.
  17. Lord NiteShade
    • Wiki Founder
    • Community Leader

    Lord NiteShade NOTD Staff: Wiki Founder/TeamSpeak Admin

    Bullshit.

    You should be able to move in burn, albeit incredibly slow, something to the tune of -70% speed. This is largely so you can get out of the way of Ivax & Cronus because your position relative to them is crucial in the fight. Also helpful during seth.
  18. ArcturusV

    ArcturusV New Member

    Well if you have a Pyro he should be the one tanking Seth anyway, ideally, no stuns to interrupt so you can max stacks. But it only works with RA, KA, or XS armor.

    Burn isn't quite perfectly fine. I will say it is... acceptable in general principle. Due to the need to constantly move during most of the boss fights in Alpha Company, Perses, IVAX, Seth, Cromo, it tends to be skipped because you can't quite ramp it up like you would hope. Considering it's an Anti-Boss Skill, and isn't good against half the bosses in the storyline that it was designed for is telling. Even Demeter either tends to go down too fast for it to really be impressive or Evil Eye stunlocks you out of it. Cerberus is the only boss fight in Alpha Company where it is highly useful.

    Edit: Though I do think Line based AoE between the Burner and Burnie isn't the right answer. Slow movement might be though I can't think of any unit in StarCraft that can both Channel and Move so I'm not quite sure how well that will work. I just never seen it so I always presumed it was an impossible answer.
  19. Lord NiteShade
    • Wiki Founder
    • Community Leader

    Lord NiteShade NOTD Staff: Wiki Founder/TeamSpeak Admin

    Thats the problem. I'm not sure if its possible. Trying to do it myself on a test map. Will report back my findings.
  20. Ghost
    • Warden

    Ghost Warden

    Keep it burst fire only. Require flamethrower equipped to use burst fire.
    Buff burst fire to +50% vs light, 20 energy, 3 cd.
    Halve the duration of frenzy so you cannot swap guns efficiently.
    Frenzy is now useful along with burst fire.

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