Flamethrower Rework/Update: Polishing Fire

Discussion in 'Class Discussion' started by Kith, Mar 5, 2013.

  1. Kith
    • Development Team
    • Designer

    Kith NOTD Staff: Anti-Fun Wizard Skeleton

    The (Hopefully) Finalized List
    Of Stuff To Do For The Flamethrower
    Everything has (seemingly) been given the go-ahead in Ye Olde Black Ops, so I'm guessing it's properly refined and ready for public eyes. Delicious peer review! It's mostly making the Order Flamer less stompy early and making the Pyro Flamer much more flexible by making "pyro" apply to all heat based weapons (see: the Laser Rifle as well as the Flamethrower). Post on, ye faithful.


    TIER 1
    Shatter (Active)
    Using His might, the Flamethrower hits a single target with holy fury, dealing a large amount of damage and regaining health if the target is stunned.

    Level 1 - Deals 100 (+100 to Heroic) damage to the target unit and regains 25 health when used on a stunned enemy.
    Level 2 - Deals 200 (+200 to Heroic) damage to the target unit and regains 50 health when used on a stunned enemy.
    Level 3 - Deals 300 (+300 to Heroic) damage to the target unit and regains 75 health when used on a stunned enemy.

    Righteousness (Passive)
    The Flamethrower's zealous faith acts as a shield, protecting him from harm in return for bringing his wrath to bear against his foes. For every unit hit by Shatter or Smite, the Flamethrower gains 1 bonus armor. For every unit killed by Shatter, the Flamethrower gains 2 bonus armor.

    Level 1 - Bonus armor lasts for 10 seconds.
    Level 2 - Bonus armor lasts for 20 seconds.
    Level 3 - Bonus armor lasts for 30 seconds.

    TIER 2
    Smite (Active)
    Using His divine might, the Flamethrower calls down a powerful burst of energy that deals damage based on current health and slows nonheroic enemies in an area. Heroic enemies take vastly reduced damage and are not slowed.

    Level 1 - Deals 15% of current health and slows movement speed by 30%.
    Level 2 - Deals 30% of current health and slows movement speed by 60%.

    Vengeance (Passive)
    A shining beacon of order and purity, those that strike the Flamethrower have a chance to be shocked into a stupor upon attacking him in retribution.

    Level 1 - 20% chance to stun attacking units for 2 seconds.
    Level 2 - 40% chance to stun attacking units for 2 seconds.


    Replace H-3 Igniter with Coolant Systems.
    Coolant Systems (Passive)
    The Flamethrower's Dreadnought Armor holds, in addition to significant heat shielding, an advanced cooling routine that allows him to handle heat-based weaponry at higher levels of intensity that would otherwise damage unprotected individuals.

    Flamethrower MK-3
    Level 1 - +1 damage to Armored and Massive, +10% base damage, +0.05 projectile width
    Level 2 - +2 damage to Armored and Massive, +20% base damage, +0.10 projectile width
    Level 3 - +3 damage to Armored and Massive, +30% base damage, +0.15 projectile width

    AER138 Laser Rifle
    Level 1 - +2% base damage, +10% attack speed, shots gain piercing linear splash with a distance of 0.5 behind target
    Level 2 - +4% base damage, +20% attack speed, shots gain piercing linear splash with a distance of 1.0 behind target
    Level 3 - +6% base damage, +30% attack speed, shots gain piercing linear splash with a distance of 1.5 behind target

    Replace "Burst Fire" with "Flash Fry" in the Talent Tree.
    Flash Fry
    The Flamethrower gains access to Burst Fire if a Flamethrower MK-3 is equipped and Burst Laser if an AER138 Laser Rifle is equipped. Burst Fire is a cone-based attack with bonus damage against Light units. Burst Laser is a linear attack with bonus damage against Armored units. Both target air and ground and share base damage.

    Level 1 - 50 base damage
    Level 2 - 100 base damage
    Level 3 - 150 base damage

    Burst Laser 18 Energy Cost
    The Flamethrower fires an intense blast from the Laser Rifle, dealing [50/100/150] damage to all enemies in a line with a length of 10. +40% damage to Armored units.

    Burst Fire 18 Energy Cost
    The Flamethrower releases a wave of fire from his weapon, dealing [50/100/150] damage to all enemies in a cone with a range of 6. +40% damage to Light units.

    Replace "BURN!" with "Immolate" on the Talent Tree.
    The Flamethrower can disregard all other things and focus intently on a single target, burning his chosen foe to a cinder by channeling as much fiery death upon them as he can muster, increasing the damage dealt the longer he attacks and building up Frenzy stacks. The Flamethrower MK-3 deals additional damage in a small radius around the target. The AER138 Laser Rifle reduces the target's armor.

    Level 1 - 25 damage per stack
    Level 2 - 50 damage per stack

    Damage per second caps at 200/second.

    BURN! 10 Energy Cost
    The Flamethrower focuses on a single target, dealing stacking damage at a rate of [25/50] up to 200 damage per second and setting them ablaze, dealing [20/40] damage per second in a 2 radius around the target. The Flamethrower gains [1/2] Frenzy Stacks per second while using BURN! if Frenzy is skilled.

    MELT! 10 energy
    The Flamethrower focuses on a single target, dealing stacking damage at a rate of [25/50] up to 200 damage per second while removing 1 armor per second up to a maximum of -10, which is regained as soon as MELT! ends. The Flamethrower gains [1/2] Frenzy Stacks per second while using MELT! if Frenzy is skilled.

    Change Frenzy to proc on any of his kills rather than just skill kills and a chance to get Frenzy stacks from Inferno.
    The Flamer is too energy dependent and too enemy dependent to be anything even close to a reliable DPS. If he becomes too powerful (which he might, but then again he might not), then reduce the bonus attack damage from 2%/4% to 1%/2%. I don't really think he's going to get super stupid in Alpha because there are just so many people looking to kill so many things at once (and most bossfights lack things to proc Frenzy off of), but I have concerns about other storylines so I'm entirely willing to cut the bonus damage down a bit.
  2. Ginger Gerald

    Ginger Gerald Well-Known Member

    Looks good, I'm excited to see Pyro get a buff that it so rightly deserves. Thanks Kith for the info.
  3. Kenno

    Kenno Well-Known Member

    Holy crap Kith! Along with Engy, the Flamethrower is hands-down my favourite class. This sounds great, I will be looking forward to it when completed. A big thumbs up from me Kith, thank you.
  4. Niktos

    Niktos Well-Known Member

    I hope requirement of target being stunned remains. As it curently stands flamer in proper hands needs medic/medkits only for demeter maybe usually doesnt at all. If by chance shatter just heals now then anyone can do the same what earlier came with practice and timing of skills.

    And in my opinion that would not be a good idea.

    What benefit does flamer get by gaining frenzy in this situation?
    Attck speed? BURN dps got a cap and it`s own pace of rising thus is unafected by attack speed as far as i imagine. Same goes for attack dmg.
    Frenzy grants movement speed also. Oh wait BURN is channeled you dont move!
    That looks like just adding something to add and look fabulous yet give nothing. With 30 max stack getting 1/2 per second is pathetic rate as well if it was ment as reliable way to stack frenzy and then proceed with regular barbeque.

    I assume MELT! requires laser riffle to be equiped and that brings to my mind one thing:

    For 2 reasons:
    1.It locks usage of skill until laser riffle is found what is 2nd chapter at best to my knowledge [not sure].
    2.It sound like smg adding armor to target over time because lead from bullets forms a coating on it. I can see some reasoning like laser desintegrates armor of target and all that, but it`s in conflict with laser base mechanic of more armor=more pain.
  5. Kith
    • Development Team
    • Designer

    Kith NOTD Staff: Anti-Fun Wizard Skeleton

    Stun requirement still remains. The only things that are changing are its placement in the tree and the actual numbers of the skill. Otherwise, it is functionally identical to the Shatter of now.

    Frenzy grants bonus attack damage (which does effect the damage output), and the Frenzy stacks can be made use of if the Flamethrower is forced from his position (by Cronus' lasers or Seth's plasma detonation or Perses' Firewave). It's not intended to grant or sustain maximum stacks - just a nice little bonus for when you're doing prolonged bossfights and your channel gets broken for whatever reason.

    Yes, MELT! requires the Laser Rifle. MELT! will generally not be available until Chapter 2 due to the scarcity of Laser Rifles, but it is not difficult to adjust a drop pool to include one or two additional Laser Rifle drops in Chapter 1 (something that was discussed in the Black Ops thread that I failed to mention here).

    It's hardly in conflict with the Laser's basic mechanic. The Laser Rifle is a weapon that pierces the target's armor and heats the armor to dangerous levels at the same time, but if the weapon gets super-charged (which it is, in this case) it's not going to just heat the armor, it's going to start melting it (leading to the armor reduction). I'm considering making MELT! stack faster than BURN! as a personal perk, but I'm not sure if I'm going to do that or just give both versions Frenzy stacking.

    Edit: Yeah, both get Frenzy stacks.
  6. Gattu

    Gattu Well-Known Member

    I can see this making alpha way harder, currently at mid level games you can easily protect / carry as a flamer until after the first titan.
    Now with a tier 2 smite, the missing 60% slow and aoe 30% hp chunk would make beastlings and agrons way harder to deal with in nm mode. But after getting tier 2 smite the game of alpha becomes as easy as before.

    It's kind of funny how the pacing of alpha is really fun and tense in the beginning but after getting to fort the difficultly dips completely down until ivax and perses.

    So the switch of smite and shatter is just going to make the beginning of alpha stupidly BS (but that's ok with me, thats what made me like NOTD in the first place)
  7. Niktos

    Niktos Well-Known Member

    So to clarify, burn is buffable dmg wise? And it was before? By buffable i mean, hp/ap/he/nano str ect. I lived in (wrong?) belief that BURN! is just flat 200dmg/s whatever whenever happens [after it loads to this lvl ofc]
  8. Kith
    • Development Team
    • Designer

    Kith NOTD Staff: Anti-Fun Wizard Skeleton

    It won't be "stupidly BS". You still have plenty of crowd control available to you. Countermeasures, Monofilament, and Crippling Fire come to mind. It will be difficult, yes, but hardly impossible.
  9. Eagle 11

    Eagle 11 Well-Known Member

    I am EagleXI and i approve of this shit. DO THAT *-*

    *Firebat thumbs up*
  10. Kith
    • Development Team
    • Designer

    Kith NOTD Staff: Anti-Fun Wizard Skeleton

    Correct, BURN! (along with most skills) can have buffed damage. BURN! is fire damage, so it is boosted appropriately by HE and Fire Vulnerability. The other various damage boosts apply as are appropriate (HP increasing damage by 12%, so on and so forth).
  11. Scorpione

    Scorpione Well-Known Member

    So the most visible change on the pyro tree is now it gets to use laser too. Just 2 things, frenzy on laser? It already shoots rather fast...
    You really think this will make ppl use pyro more? Maybe for experiments etc... I still don't see pyro strategically optional. But being alpha u can tank it on the pyro tree with just a med. Would be nice if there were more titans spawns :D

    No nerf to faith? 7second stun.. zzzzz
  12. Kith
    • Development Team
    • Designer

    Kith NOTD Staff: Anti-Fun Wizard Skeleton

    Yes. The Pyro's problem was that he lacked flexibility of any kind. Now, he has a lot.

    Also, I tried to nerf Faith, and people cried about it. I'm not gonna fight about it, I'm on vacation.
  13. Scorpione

    Scorpione Well-Known Member

    Who are these "people" that cried? ACNM 24/7 grinders? People love to say "kith makes the game too easy" but when a nerf is suggested they say "nonononononon dont wtf man" Because 7 second stun on anyunit, self heal alignments and heal team isn't imba. I don't get these people.
    Whats next? They cry about ttd nerf so it stays the same?

    Oh there is 1 thing about pyro. When you stop burning the -10armor goes away right away. Should't there be 1-5seconds after effect?

    SN: enjoy your vacation.
  14. Arturia

    Arturia Well-Known Member

    I'm not aware of any changes to Demolition's at the moment.

    As far as faith goes, I still agreed with the idea of removing the ailment healing, at the very least, needing it.

    I think the argument for keeping it was that each tank has some way to mitigate the effects of ailments.

    Team heal should be removed though. I think that it infringes too much on he role of FA medic.
  15. EdowardoLMP

    EdowardoLMP Well-Known Member

    Because Faith has a special numeric signature of 7, so everything is in 7(except ailment removal). if Faith's 7 sec is too long, I don't mind nerfing it to 6 or less.

    So it's 666 damage, 6 range AOE, 6 sec stun. (or even less)
  16. Arturia

    Arturia Well-Known Member

    Its not specifically pure 7's (refer to CD, Energy cost, Ally heal)

    It really wasn't balanced when it was first made, and nobody really gave feedback about it because Alpha wasn't finished, and pyro was commonly played.

    I would reduce its damage to around 400's, with a stun of 5 seconds at longest.
  17. Scorpione

    Scorpione Well-Known Member

    A stun longer than 4-5 seconds on [bANY[/b] unit is stupidly imba. The range is not a big deal. Damage to 400 sounds fair.

    I don't recall other tanks having this? Techs cockpit *prevents alignments*. Tech has hp regen, demo has armor + hp/shield regen and assault has armor. Flamer has nothing. The only tanking it can do is when it smites loads of zombies which usually aren't present for most bosses in ac.
  18. Arturia

    Arturia Well-Known Member

    Scorpione, please read that again.

    Make less severe, serious, or painful

    Technician effectively prevents ailments from affecting him via Cockpit. This is his method of mitigating the effects ailments.

    Demolitions is primarily shield-based tank; ailments are only inflicted when life damage is taken, and as a result, he doesn't get affected by ailments for the most part. This is his method of mitigating the effects of ailments.

    Assault well, I guess he doesn't really have a way to deal with ailments that is unique to him, as he would ideally by using a C6, C4 would be used until then, and C4 serves to reduce his risk of getting ailments, but that is available to other characters as well. By design, he's supposed to have problems with ailments anyways.

    Flamer has his ailment defense through Faith, in that he can remove his ailments. In this sense, he reacts to having ailments by removing them via faith.

    If you're facetanking bosses in AC, you're already fucking up anyways. Proper use of RA & KA should take care of any problems that bosses pose, as well as kiting.
  19. brizingr5

    brizingr5 Member

    Take away RA and KA from flamer and you end up with the same tanking abilities as the pyro, explo demo, chem expert, or anybody else in the same general hp range. Faith is only useful on bosses, but as far as crowd control goes, smite only slows them, he can't really kill them easily like demo or assault can without putting himself at 1/2 hp, which leaves him vulnerable for the next wave of mobs. Compared to any other tank, the only thing that allows flamer to keep up is that:
    a) It's the only tank available in ac, so he's forced to be used
    b) RA/KA
    c) LOTS of bubbles shields from medic...
  20. Arturia

    Arturia Well-Known Member

    Faith also has a devastating effect against mobs on your position, the same could be said for repulse, albeit on a lower scale.

    Its literally a nuke without FF that stuns enemies and heals allies that is centered on flamer.

    Its excessively powerful, 50% of your HP can easily be replenished via nano-weave, Fibrins, or med kits.

    Nothing would be hitting you after you use faith anyways, for at least 2 seconds.

    Unlike every other tank, flamer's enemies are never tanked for the most part. You never would tank them for any reason in the same manner that an assault tank handles Eos.

    He isn't meant to face tank, but rather to kite (High MS + stuns & slows)

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