Flamethrower Rework: Polishing Fire

Discussion in 'Class Discussion' started by Kith, Feb 9, 2013.

  1. Ability
    • Development Team
    • NOTD Creator

    Ability NOTD Creator

    # Marine Action for Air Attack on Flamethrower Weapon
    The micro needed and progression curve for Flamethower can still be improved further. Having the air attack ability on Flamethrower weapon tied with a Marine Action lets vets better play to that, and it will incentivize using Flamethrower weapon on both trees as it adds a damage buff to the weapon (as a twist, can even increase the damage buff by +5% for every 5 levels the Flamethrower achieves to scale the skill for people using Flamethrower weapon). It's a practical always-on with a 10 second maintenance with minor energy cost. If it's too much micro, I'm fine with the effect duration upped to 12 seconds. It adds a bit more depth to the class. I'm also fine for the napalm explosion on death to be a little less deadly to teammates. Overall, it's a great way to add micro without it being a must-have for newbies. It's like an innate Suppressive Fire or Focused Fire - so it's a relatively familiar concept to players as well but with mechanics unique to the Flamethrower. Any violent objections?

    # Burst Fire
    The changes Kith proposed will turn using Inferno vs. Burst Fire use into a greater choice (where it was not before and everyone immediately used Inferno in most situations). And if a player chooses to stick by having Burst Fire (he can still use Inferno when needed), it'll keep Flamethrower weapon as a more viable late-game weapon even after he hit T3 Pyro. It gives more options to the player overall. My only possible concern is because it's a T1 - if its too powerful - it even further strengthens maxed out Order Flamers. But even then, they'd need to pick a Flamethrower weapon to use it so that's a choice for them.

    # Flamer Shields/Armor
    Largely agree with Ghost's inputs here. It's also a shorter range tank than a Demo/Assault usually (if using Flamethrower weapon more) requiring it to take more risks so the stats are still a little heavier. Flamer does have the fastest movespeed of the 3 so you can argue he should just micro more - so am okay to hear more feedback on this if there's any violent objections.
  2. Kith
    • Development Team
    • Designer

    Kith NOTD Staff: Anti-Fun Wizard Skeleton

    # Marine Action for Air Attack on Flamethrower Weapon
    Boss, I really think it should just be a straight air attack capability. It would be a major draw of the class. Not a super powerful one, but still a significant one. I don't like putting it as a 10 second buff because that's not intuitive to new players.

    # Burst Fire
    I don't forsee Burst Fire getting buffed as a problem for maxed out Order Flamers. The energy requirements would get pretty high, and unless the player is getting tons of kills, it's not going to go any higher than Level 2.

    # Flamer Shields/Armor
    I also think that the Flamethrower's "shorter attack range" is extremely misleading, considering that they are not restrained to the Flamethrower. I myself always use the M45 and the Pistol, switching to the Shotgun whenever possible. If the Flametherower was specifically restricted to use the Mk3 and only the Mk3? Sure, I'd be okay with that. But he's not, so I don't think that argument holds much water. He's also zany-level fast, which you pointed out.
  3. Lyanden

    Lyanden Well-Known Member

    Reword/Rephrase that then. You're a dev, it's your responsibility to avoid making statements that are not clear cut.

    Come now, it will be very much like FocusFire. Some will use it often, some will not. Adds more to the easy to learn, difficult to master mindset. For those who really get indepth with the class, they'd even be able to find that sometimes, not using it is a good idea as they'll auto focus on ground targets while being swarmed by air and ground, letting the team take care of the fliers etc.

    Wouldn't that mean there's no need to have the +1 range? Weapon switching has never really been a problem for any class. In fact, I would say it's highly recommended that players switch weapons for the right job at all times/difficulties/storylines.

    An average player won't need to switch weapons/use the injection at all if they play in game difficulties suited to them. If they go for High SR games however or even Nightmare ones, then it is time for them to up their game, use the tools provided to them with efficiency in mind.

    Also, do not compare the Flamer to the Assault in order to determine its shield amount. As a tank, the assault can live without any shields at all. It could have 0 shields and still be effective in its tasks. It's an HP + Armor Tank.
    A Flamer, not so much.

    It's probably the most medic dependent Tank we have right now. Another difference is that the OrderFlamer contributes significantly to team DPS in a DPS heavy lineup storyline and is likely why it is held in such high esteem, and not really for its tanking abilities.

    The only way Flamers are able to hold the front lines in open/level ground Alpha (sans Fort as that's the only non open/level ground holdout point) is with judicious use of NanoShield from the Medic. And even then it does not hold back too many targets at all as the DPS in this storyline thins the mobs significantly.
  4. Kith
    • Development Team
    • Designer

    Kith NOTD Staff: Anti-Fun Wizard Skeleton

    "Using His might the Flamethrower hits a single target with holy fury..."

    It doesn't need rewording, considering that it's the same exact tooltip that's in-game and also on the wiki.

    I'll respond to the other bits later.
  5. MSluiter

    MSluiter Member

    I don’t appreciate your comments so I’m gonna give you a Kithrixx style response to why I don’t like your Order rework. I don’t see why you need to keep reinventing the wheel for every class at this point in the game’s lifecycle.

    There is only 1 tank, and right now Pyro is kind of awful. Plus people tend to favor an Exped or close to Exped setup.

    Yes….you can’t hit anything with flamethrower in the fort holdouts so why would you use it? Then you can pick up a shotgun which is superior to the flamethrower in most regards.

    Yeah 1 slow (that doesn’t affect heroic) and 1 T3 stun and 1 stun that you have to take damage to proc. Yeah I suppose that is too much compared to demo which has 2 stuns and a T3 that also stuns.

    15 mins into the game is way too late? GG why bother at that point.

    I don’t agree that Righteousness is useless. You can build a lot of armor in all the holdouts if you make any effort. Extra armor never hurts, and the only boss fight with nothing to smite is Cronus. Plus RA is the answer to every boss except Demeter.

    Flamer's 5 shield is inferior to Demo's in every way except that he starts with it. Quantity, Regen, and No Taunt. Not to mention Pyro is a close range brawler. He's not like assault (Also Crazy buff) who can choose to use a long range weapon if he wants.

    +1 range and air attack doesn’t fix the issue that the flamethrower is typically inferior to the shotgun / crowbar or a M45 during the holdouts.

    I don’t even know what this means “active sustain”. This rework makes him less sustainable vs bosses (Shatter) and mobs (Righteous). As for the “funky skill combos”, your rework takes the combo out and now you just have the funky skills part. See more on that below.

    As far as I know Smite doesn’t not affect Boss Movespeed. If I’m wrong on this it is unnoticeably minor.

    What we have currently is strong skill cohesion. Both T2s build on the T1s and the T3 that ties back to the T2. With your progression you have no skills that are tied together except a T2 that builds on another T2.
    The only time you can really build stupid armor is the 1st airlock holdout of EC and a few other spots, but then Demo can also single handedly wipe out this entire mob.
    There are plenty of classes that are “lulzy” outside their storyline (see Pathfinder)

    Basically for bosses you’re ditching its intended function of healing and energy regen. So before, where it synergized with Vengeance (And currently faith) it now synergizes with nothing.

    Both Demo and Tech are highly resistant to ailments. I don’t see an issue with the trade of burning a ton of health to remove a few stacks especially if you are taking his buff shields away, and Faith puts you at risk to receive ailments in the 1st place.
  6. Kith
    • Development Team
    • Designer

    Kith NOTD Staff: Anti-Fun Wizard Skeleton

    We spoke about it on the Whatsapp thing, I'm just gonna go ahead and let Ability do his thing. It's not how I would do it, buuuuut he wants it that way so I'm all for it.

    It's something of a moot point considering that we're going with injection anyways, but for the most part the range was there to force players to micro a bit more if they wanted to utilize the Mk3.

    Sure he could. Just kite properly and use Smite/Righteousness.

    Actually, it's the combination of DPS and disables, which is why I left those alone and nerfed his tanking capability to be more about active health restoration rather than just stacking a ton of armor (which really isn't that big of a nerf considering that almost all of his "tanking power" comes from his disables, really). Facetanking becomes significantly harder as a result, but his total damage capability remains the same. It ups the skill requirement significantly.

    Alternately they can just Smite everything to a crawl and have the team/minis mop up. I've played 2400 SR Nightmare Alphas (real ones, not where I was testing the Assault as a tank or as a DPS) and the only time anything got even remotely close to me was:
    • Demeter
    • Cronus
    • Labs
    • Cerberus (not the spawns from gas, just Cerberus)
    • Perses

    We had tons of spawns that had tons of health and there were still only a handful of times that I took actual damage and I don't think I took life damage other than when I got nicked after Faith or when I got chewed on by Cerb. I still steadfastly believe that the Flamethrower's shields need to be cut down significantly because he has so much offensive power. I don't want to cut down on his offensive power because he's the tank of the "DPS Storyline" and I want to push the emphasis on crowd control and gunning things down more so the difference between the different campaigns is more keenly felt.

    A real reply instead of a snarky comment? Oh boy I'm so excited I can hardly wait![/align]

    Probably has something to do with NOTD not being finished and it being my job and perhaps even the Black Ops Forum description:

    "No no leave it alone" is not "forward thinking". I don't see why you react to change with such a negative manner every single time. Also, it's not "every class". I have done a lot of class work, but it has not been every single one.

    The funny thing is that Alpha doesn't even need a tank. Bring an Infantry Support FO and make him throw mini flamers at the problem. Don't worry, he's got spares. Yes, there's only one tank, but there's also only one tank for Apollo and that didn't stop the Technician from being way too strong, now did it?

    Which is why I want the Mk3 to be able to passively hit air because there's zero reason to keep it on an Orderthrower, and also buff the Pyro so he actually has some mid to long range capability and better short range capability.

    That slow doesn't NEED to effect heroic. It already effects non-heroics, and horde/mob events make up 80% of Alpha. That's more than enough to make a difference. Faith is stupid powerful as a stun and as a team support (and even as a self sustain), and that "get hit to proc" stun is effectively more than 45% damage reduction for the Flamethrower. All three of these disables are extremely effective. I don't know what point you're trying to make here, but because these disables are so effective, I would like to leave them that way and instead cut down on the tanking aspect of the Flamethrower to promote a higher skill ceiling rather than cut down on the effectiveness of the disables and just leave him beefy.

    Considering its purpose? Yes, that is too late. I'm not saying it's game breaking, I'm saying that it's clunky design.

    Borderline useless ≠ useless. Yes, additional armor always helps, but the very nature of Alpha (and Reactive/Kinetic Armor) devalues that armor significantly. I'm not about to change the structure of an entire campaign around the ideal of making regular armor more worthwhile, so instead I'm adapting Righteousness to be more suited to the situation.

    In a vacuum, maybe, but you forget about Nanoshield and Protect. A Pyro Flamer can tank (comfortably, I might add) for the entirety of Alpha with XS-4 and even more comfortably so with Medic/Recon support. The Explosive Demolitions and the Arms Assault and the Weapons Technician cannot facetank like the Pyro can, even with support. I'd also like to point out that, yes, while he is a close range brawler, I'm giving him better options for long range and also improving Burst Fire to be more usable in close range. His shields can stand to take a cut so he's no longer DURRRR... CLANG! and requires more active effort on the player's part.

    No, it really doesn't. But it sure does help. Besides, with Shatter becoming a Tier 1 and much more frequently usable, the player will not have to rely on said weapons nearly as much early on, allowing them to comfortably remain with the Mk3.

    "Active Sustain" refers to the character being sustainable if the player takes on an active role, such as Smiting and Shattering mobs. I'd also like to point out that the "funky" was in reference to the combos, rather than the skills.

    I was referencing the HP shaving which, more often than not, is going to do several hundred (if not several thousand) points of damage to bosses.

    You have skill progression in the form of Shatter > Smite > Faith, going from Single Target > AOE > More Powerful AOE, respectively. Shatter and Vengeance are a bit on their own, this is true, and I'm considering leaving Shatter's 'heal on stun' mechanic alone due to that.

    And Nydus Worms, and Domes, and Queen. I'm also aware of said classes, which I intend to address as quickly as possible. Just because there are classes that are indeed lulzy outside of their home storylines doesn't mean that there should be. If you feel that there are other classes that are significantly powerful beyond their intended means out of storyline, then perhaps you should say something about them so we can fix them rather than using them as a flimsy justification.

    Shatter doesn't restore energy right now. And it's for healing off of mobs rather than healing off of bosses, because I feel the Orderthrower is simply too strong vs. bosses due to the hitpoint shaving of Smite and the huge stun radius of Faith and effective damage reduction of Vengeance.

    I think it makes him too sustainable given his massive offensive power, but perhaps that's just me fondly remembering how the Flamethrower got along just fine without it and now that it's here people are clinging to it desperately like it's necessary.
  7. Ability
    • Development Team
    • NOTD Creator

    Ability NOTD Creator

    Some interim changes. Not all are permanent nor final.

    - Burst Fire cooldown reduced from 5 secs to 0. Energy cost reduced from 25 to 18. (Kithrixx)
    - Flamethrower Shield Armor reduced from 5 to 2. (Kithrixx)
  8. Ghost
    • Warden

    Ghost Warden

    If Burst Fire cd is 0, I strongly recommend changing Frenzy to trigger on kills only concurrently.
  9. Ability
    • Development Team
    • NOTD Creator

    Ability NOTD Creator


    - Burst Fire only triggers Frenzy on kill.
  10. Kith
    • Development Team
    • Designer

    Kith NOTD Staff: Anti-Fun Wizard Skeleton

    I message you now from space.

    Compromise time, because I've got more important shit to worry about. The only thing I'm going to insist upon happening for Order is Smite and Shatter switching places, for the sake of pacing.

    The secondary optional change that I want but will not insist upon is Faith losing the ailment shedding and (as an exchange) Shatter healing on enemy kill or healing a lesser amount if used on Smited enemies.

    As for the whole "flamethrower vs air units" thing. After looking at it again, there's no reason for the flamethrower to hit air with the proposed Burst Fire cost amount (of 10) and Shatter being in Tier 1.

    Lastly, for Pyro, I insist that Frenzy proc on all kills with the loss of the igniter passiv, but only after the passive is replaced with the Grenade.

    Everything else is dust in the wind, honestly. I think it'd be better but I'm not gonna push it.
  11. Ramses II
    • Donator

    Ramses II Help, I can't change my title!

    I'm really the only one who thinks the pyrothrower should have to be using a flamethrower, and should be able to use it better than other classes?
  12. Kith
    • Development Team
    • Designer

    Kith NOTD Staff: Anti-Fun Wizard Skeleton

    Yes, because the Flamethrower is completely unmatched in power per shot. It takes rudimentary use (see: 3 flames out of 12 hitting the target) to outdamage the Chaingun on most targets. It is only beaten by the Stinger and the L3 when being used to its maximum potential.

    It is already INCREDIBLY POWERFUL. The Flamethrower gets something different because EVERY DPS CLASS IN THE GAME gets access to the Mk3 and there's nothing that we can do to make him more attractive as a DPS than the Opsmando without making him stupid. Keeping him as a combat caster gives him a unique flavor that cannot be impeded upon by any character, so we're not making him a weapons specialist.
  13. Kith
    • Development Team
    • Designer

    Kith NOTD Staff: Anti-Fun Wizard Skeleton

    Y'know, I had a thought.

    The Marksman's Assassination tree has an upgrade/alternate available to it with the Barrett. Considering that the Flamethrower is a weapon specialist in the same vein, do we want to examine the possibility of granting the Flamethrower an upgrade/alternate with the Laser Rifle?

    It is also a heat-based weapon, and the Flamethrower's supposed effectiveness comes from his Juggernaut Plating that shields him from the excessive heat that he employs that would otherwise damage the other characters. Burst Fire and Burn! can easily be changed to energy-based effects (Burst Fire firing a sphere of energy in a linear path, Burn! applying the Void Ray beam, ect).

    The Laser Rifle very easily could replace the Arclite Hecate. We may not need to make a new weapon at all.
  14. Arturia

    Arturia Well-Known Member

    Laser rifle.

    That's kinda a problem. He would literally burn up his ammo. Sure it sounds good, but its a very different weapon. And they are very different from each other. One boasts the highest ammo efficiency in the game, the other is the complete opposite.

    Unless you gave him a specific buff that dramatically changed the laser rifle that gave him some way to mitigate the god awfully ammo dump Laser rifle is, I don't think it would be a good idea.

    But as far as laser rifle changing the effects of skills, make the burst into plasma, and burn as you stated it. Would make burst have a slightly smaller AOE, but deal more damage, and BURN have a higher maximum but slower build up.

    Really, I would see flamethrower's T3 allow him to change the laser rifle to a more slow firing weapon with higher damage.
  15. HipHopDragon
    • Warden

    HipHopDragon Warden

    While it could be made, it would be nearly useless because the laser at the moment is pretty useless. Unless the laser change is made and it becomes a weapon that can be used on more enemys than eos and 1 wave in surv it just doesnt matter if he can use a laser or not.
  16. Kith
    • Development Team
    • Designer

    Kith NOTD Staff: Anti-Fun Wizard Skeleton

    With the potential of adapting the Laser Rifle to the Flamethrower, we may not need to throw in the Napalm Grenade after all and have H-3 Igniter changed into "something else" that makes the Mk3 notably more effective as a weapon (instead of increasing range, increasing projectile width) and upgrade the Laser Rifle to be more ammo-friendly by increasing damage. Really, the only skills that would not be affected by the Laser Rifle/Mk3 concept are Frenzy and Inferno, which works out just fine.

    This could give the Laser Rifle a comfortable niche to fall into without severely changing its mechanics.
  17. Ramses II
    • Donator

    Ramses II Help, I can't change my title!

    I like it, but keep in mind that the laser rifle and Mk3 are very different weapons in terms of mechanics (laser is fast and low damage attacks, Mk3 is slow and high damage attacks) as opposed to the differences in the sniper and barrett, whose primary differences in terms of mechanics are simply what they give bonus damage against. All this to say, figuring out how to make the ratio of attack speed to attack damage upgrades make sense for both weapons may be difficult.

    Also, a huge part of pyrothrower is support via burn -armor. Not entirely sure if it makes sense for one of his primary weapons to also get bonuses for +armor.
  18. Arturia

    Arturia Well-Known Member

    BURN is a channeled effect, so it shouldn't affect his usage of the Laser Rifle.

    But taking that into consideration, why not make the Laser Rifle's BURN increase the damage the enemy takes in a different method, akin to Heightened Senses, or instead provides a significant reduction to the enemies Attack & Move Speed?
  19. Kith
    • Development Team
    • Designer

    Kith NOTD Staff: Anti-Fun Wizard Skeleton

    Actually, I was going to change how Burn currently functions. Burn as of now would slowly build Frenzy stacks and have a small radius of damage centered on the primary target. The Laser Burn (which I will instead creatively call Melt) will inherit the armor reduction.

    I'm also very aware of the differences between the M45 and the Barrett. While they are functionally similar and only hold differences in ammo consumption and damage bonuses, the point of the adaption of the Laser Rifle to the Flamethrower is to give him an equipment option that is not the Mk3. While the Mk3 is a fantastic weapon, it is a very limited one. The Laser Rifle is limited as well, but in entirely divergent ways, so it draws an interesting parallel.

    The Mk3 and the Laser Rifle only hold one thing in common - they are particularly effective against armored foes. Other than that, they are wildly different. That is why I think changing the Pyro Flamethrower to be designed around having either equipped leads to an effective solving of his problems.


    I suppose I should just detail what I intend to do, should this get the stamp of approval.

    H-3 Igniter - Changed to "heat resistant plating" or something similar, the justification being that instead of having a special kind of attachment on his weapons that increases their effectiveness the Flamethrower simply pushes his suit's heat retardant abilities further and allows him to get more out of his heat based weapons (the Mk3 and the Laser Rifle) which would otherwise damage the other players.

    Also the lore reason of wondering why H-3 was being used as an ignition tool, considering its apparent extreme value. It's never exactly stated what the H-3 coming from Apollo is used for, it's just touted as being incredibly important and/or economically impacting. I've never really found it appropriate that a character weaponizes it while at the same time gathering canisters of the stuff for additional money bonuses.

    Mk3 - Wider flame projectiles, increased damage, burning DOT.
    Laser Rifle - Potentially linear piercing splash, minor increased damage, increased attack speed.

    Burst Fire - Flame-based stays the same, laser-based involves a linear laser burst burst. It's essentially Laser Mono, but fatter.

    Burn - Mentioned above in the main post, but still relevant. Mk3 slowly builds Frenzy stacks and has a damage aura around the target, Laser Rifle gets the armor reduction over time. Both have the same damage ramp-up.

    Inferno remains unchanged, as the grenades/pellets are handled by the character and are not weapon-produced effects.

    The idea is that we simply push the two different weapons to their varying extremes rather than attempting to boost the weapon to solve all problems (ala Pathfinder). This will create a situation where the player is able to switch between the two weapons (and ability sets) to suit their needs, which is what NOTD is all about: using the right tool for the right job.
  20. Ability
    • Development Team
    • NOTD Creator

    Ability NOTD Creator

    I agree. I'm fine with the overall idea. Only watchout is to not give pyro tree too much flexibility.

    Helium 3 is used as a fuel for future fusion plants:

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