Flamethrower Rework: Polishing Fire

Discussion in 'Class Discussion' started by Kith, Feb 9, 2013.

  1. Kith
    • Development Team
    • Designer

    Kith NOTD Staff: Anti-Fun Wizard Skeleton

    [align=center]Flamethrower Rework: Polishing Fire
    The burning sensation usually ends after three to five days


    Show Spoiler
    So, currently, there are several glaring problems with the Flamethrower.

    The Pyro lacks range in Alpha, which is a problem considering that nobody else does. Its use is primarily dictated by Burn (which is only useful against bosses) and Inferno (which, while amazing, is a Tier 3). It also suffers from critical usability flaws; I erred when I suggested that Frenzy be based on units hit by Burst Fire, as now players only take 1 in the skill so that they may gain Frenzy stacks. And on top of that, Frenzy stacks are fleeting niceties at best even if Burst Fire does not require the player to kill anything due to Burst Fire's finicky hitbox being so divergent from the animation.

    The Order is simply too attractive by comparison. It has much more range, is not limited by the Mk3 Flamethrower, and has disables aplenty. Despite being the better option by far, it also suffers from some usability flaws that cannot be ignored: its entire Tier 2. Shatter, while useful for snagging kills and healing the Flamethrower, comes way too late to be significant for the former and is not clear on how the latter operates in relation to Vengeance and Faith. Righteousness is borderline useless for Alpha, as the bosses do not require much armor to tank because they have low reduction per armor and the Flamethrower has too many disables at his disposal.

    The Flamethrower himself also has some problems, such as an innate 5 Shield Armor, which gets very silly very fast. It also bothers me that the Flamethrower doesn't get any innate special handling of the Mk3 even though his suit is built to accommodate it whereas the other marines just have a weapon modifier. He explodes into napalm, but what if he's not a Pyro? What if he's just a big dude with a shotgun? Where did that Napalm come from?

    Read on, as I seek to address these issues and more.

    [align=center]Flamethrower Adjustments[/align]

    Reduce Shield Armor by 3 or even 4, and base shields by 15.
    His shields are WAY too strong, nearly rivaling the Demolition's. He's way too durable, especially considering that this is something he achieves with zero effort.
    Increase base Hitpoints by 35.
    To compensate for the loss of Shield durability.

    Napalm Injectors (Passive, Innate)
    The Flamethrower has +1 range with his namesake weapon and can target air units with it.

    Yes, the Flamethrower gets an innate air attack. Why? Because the current H-3 Igniter is kinda crap and the Orderthrower ditches the Mk3 as soon as possible (and in some cases immediately) due to the inflexibility of the weapon and lack of anti-air available to Orderthrowers. Considering that the class is based around a character that is encased in a suit that is specifically designed to house such a weapon and even explodes into a ball of fire on death to drive home that point, I don't think it's a stretch that he can push his Mk3 a bit further than everyone else.

    [align=center]Pyro Adjustments[/align]

    Burst Fire
    Burst's problem is that it's short range and it doesn't do much damage for that short range. It's also incredibly hard to tell what you have and haven't hit with it thanks to how the actor animation is bound to the model's hands, which go ALL OVER THE DAMN PLACE during firing and not firing. So, to that end, it needs to be unbound from the model, and then its size adjusted to be more in-line with the radius effect. We also have non-visual adjustments that need to be done:

    Remove the cooldown.
    Not reduce, remove. It needs to be able to be thrown out rapidly, especially if you're in a position where the first cast didn't kill what you expected it to.
    Reduce the energy cost by 10.
    Its energy cost is on par with the Rifleman's Grenade, which is stupid considering that Burst only deals marginally more damage with nearly half the range.

    There is absolutely no reason to use Burst Fire unless it's against air targets once you get Inferno. Allowing players to belt it out rapidly will lend a unique flavor to the skill, and make it a viable alternative to the other skills.

    H-3 Igniter gets replaced by Napalm Grenade

    Napalm Grenade - 30 Energy Cost, 30 second cooldown
    The Flamethrower launches a Napalm Grenade at the target location, creating a burning pillar of flame that damages and slows enemies by 30%. 12 range.

    Level 1 - Deals 15 damage per second for 10 seconds.
    Level 2 - Deals 25 damage per second for 10 seconds.
    Level 3 - Deals 35 damage per second for 10 seconds.

    Napalm Grenades give the Flamethrower his much-needed range. It also grants unique synergy with Burn, as hitting an enemy with Napalm and then following up with Burn will keep them in range longer. To visually differentiate it from the Rifleman's grenade, they should have a bit of an arc and a second or two of travel time.

    Frenzy's problem is actually my own, and I openly admit that. Nowadays people go 3/1 and ignore what should be the Pyro's signature skill for some really crappy DPS. That said...

    Make Frenzy proc on kills.
    All kills. Including Inferno and regular attacks. This is the only way that Frenzy will ever be viable as a DPS skill on a character that is so heavily reliant on casting. His momentum has to be maintainable, even after he's eaten all of his energy. If we're not fond of this concept, then Frenzy should restore energy on kill or reduce cooldowns on kill.

    That's really all there is that needs to be done in servicing the Pyro. Now, as for his other brother...

    [align=center]Order Adjustments[/align]
    Just a heads up, this is going to be pushing the Order more towards active sustain rather than the funky skill combos that we have running now that makes the bosses so easy to fight.

    Smite is too damn powerful. This is what happens when we let Countermeasures not only affect bosses, but shave off entire chunks of their hitpoints as well. Smite being in Tier 1 makes the early mobs almost trivial, as it deals a ton of damage to them and slows them considerably, allowing the team to finish whatever Smited units off relatively quickly. I also don't like the skill progression of AOE at Tier 1, Single Target at Tier 2, and then Bigger AOE at Tier 3. So I'm scooting Smite to Tier 2. Shatter will take its place in Tier 1, but that's for later.

    Smite - 15 energy cost, 4 second cooldown
    The Flamethrower uses divine might to destroy a percentage of a targets current health and reduces their movespeed for 4 seconds in a 3 area radius. Reduced Effectiveness against bosses.

    Level 1 - Reduces effected targets health by 15% and movespeed by 30%
    Level 2 - Reduces effected targets health by 30% and movespeed by 60%

    Staying where it is in Tier 2, but a change in function is necessary. Alpha bosses are not bothered by excess armor, and neither are mobs (especially considering that they're regularly destroyed by the team before they get anywhere near the Flamethrower). Not that I mind, I mean, Flamethrower's got disables out of the everywhere. I'm changing how Shatter functions in conjunction with stuns to make it less powerful against bosses, so I'm moving the health restoration from Shatter to Righteousness:

    Change Righteousness to add 0.5 Armor and 0.1 Health Regeneration per unit Smited.
    This makes him less lulzy in alternate storylines and trims some unnecessary body fat in terms of armor bonuses.

    Since this is now in Tier 1, I'm changing it to be more for general use rather than to make Faith cost essentially no hitpoints and aid in boss shaming. Also it's going to be a more logical progression of skills of single target > AOE > bigger and better AOE, so there's that bonus too.

    Shatter - 15 Energy Cost, 3 second cooldown
    Using His might the Flamethrower hits a single target with holy fury at a 7 cast range dealing massive damage to it. Deals double damage to bosses.

    Level 1 - Deals 100 damage. If the target is killed, the Flamethrower regains 10 health and 5 energy.
    Level 2 - Deals 200 damage. If the target is killed, the Flamethrower regains 20 health and 10 energy.
    Level 3 - Deals 300 damage. If the target is killed, the Flamethrower regains 30 health and 15 energy.


    Remove the ailment removal function of Faith.
    Faith is really good, but it comes at a cost, and I like that. This is actually the only thing that I'm tempted to not do, but considering that Righteousness will restore health and Shatter will restore health more often, I can't really find an issue with putting forth this change. I believe that Faith with Ailment Removal makes the Orderthrower too survivable on his own and too non-reliant on the Medic.

    That's all of what I think needs to be done. The idea is to make Order less powerful against bosses and a little more reliant on the team while also making the Pyro more than marginally effective in his native storyline before Tier 3. Post away, folks.
  2. MSluiter

    MSluiter Member

    Things that dont need to be fixed: Order flamer.
    Besides the smite % damage vs bosses there is nothing that should be changed.
  3. Lyanden

    Lyanden Well-Known Member

    A few misconceptions.

    Order is only "too attractive" in comparison because there is no other Tank. Having an Order flamer is nearly a necessity in that storyline.
    *That people prefer other classes as a source of their team's DPS over the pyro is the real issue.

    Burn is not that widely used a skill at all even among teams that end up with 2 flamers. The tendency is still use Inferno exclusively after it is obtained.

    The Flamer's shield is not "nearly at par" with a Demo. It is functionally better. Try doing Seth with a flamer on XS-4. He will not take any damage (regen > Seth DPS) even w/o Medic support, barring plasma discharge. He doesn't even need vengeance for this/a Pyro Flamer can do it.

    Reducing the shield armor by 1 or 2 might fix this.
    Reducing the shield amount AND armor however is overkill.
    Much like Alpha's increased banetrain amount + reduced mini HP to improve Alpha diffuclty, the minis' HPs getting reduced would have sufficed. In the pyros case, a reduction in shield armor will nerf it sufficiently.

    +1 range is not necessary. That only serves as a nerf.
    Hitting air with flamethrowers is not to my taste, but I suppose it has a place here. It did in WC3 after all.


    Burst fire sounds ok. Always did cost too much. +1

    Napalm grenade is Firewall finally making it into the pyro tree after 2 years of suggestions. Do note however that if this was put in to make "Burn" more viable... How about reworking Burn itself instead then?

    H3 was ok, if a bit underwhelming, how about buffing its damage but removing the range bonus instead so that the flamethrower becomes shotgun tier in the hands of the Pyro? Weapon specialization certainly works for the Pathfinder.

    Frenzy proc on kills is amazing. +1


    I do believe Smite needs to move to T2 with the % damage nerf. +1

    Shatter T1 AOE 300 damage heal and energy regain on kill is extreme. Hopefully the heals and energy thing procs from only 1 target, not from a whole mob. Otherwise we get Hybrids going BurstFire Shatter Spam.

    Righteousness giving HP regen from Smite is giving the Flamer free healing. He ALWAYS smites already anyway. Rewarding him further for that may not be good for the class.

    Faith change is unnecessarily made. You're already removing shatter healing on bosses by making it proc on kill, not stun.
    With that alone, you can be sure that every use of this T3,
    will again deplete both the flamer and medics' energy bars.

    Semi helping with the burden of ailments removal energy costs can stay.
  4. Ability
    • Development Team
    • NOTD Creator

    Ability NOTD Creator

    Agree with the overall theme and issues to address.

    - Am fine with reducing Flamer shield armor by 2.
    - Okay for Flamethrower weapon to attack air. Since it's a pure buff, I strongly recommend to make it more micro-based. I.e. a new Marine Action called 'Fuel Injection' that increases damage of Flamethrower weapon by 5% & allows it to attack air for 10 seconds. 8 second cooldown and 2 energy cost.
    - Am okay with Burst Fire adjustment, but the energy reduction should be max of 8.
    - I like Napalm Grenade. Achieves the objective and adds more micro.
    - Agree that Smite is too strong in most situations. Would like to get more community input on Order tree as a whole first.
  5. Reaper

    Reaper Moderator/The Crimsonrine

    Personally I would prefer Napalm Grenade/H-3 Igniter be replaced with something like this...

    The Flamethrower soaks an area in liquid H-3, units hit by the initial are slowed and units that enter the area take increased Fire based damage. Should the area be hit by Burst Fire, the entire field ignites into a roiling ball of flame for 4 seconds.
    Level 1 - Slows and increases Fire based damage by 15%. Burst Fire deals 25dps
    Level 2 - Slows and increases Fire based damage by 30%. Burst Fire deals 50dps
    Level 3 - Slows and increases Fire based damage by 45%. Burst Fire deals 75dps

    This increases the damage done by all Flamethrower Mk-3 and Laser Rifles used by the team (The Laser Rifle of which is pretty much obsolete in Alpha Company, may differ)
  6. Ghost
    • Warden

    Ghost Warden

    To be honest the changes to Flamethrower that I think are warranted are these only:

    -OK with Ability's air targeting idea
    -Reduce shield armor by 1
    -Reduce Burst Fire CD to 2 and cost to 18
    -Frenzy on kills only
    -Increase BURN range by 1
    -Keep Smite at T1 and reduce damage scaling from 10/20/30 to 8/16/24%. Bosses at 9% down from 10%
    -Change Vengeance from 15/30/45 to stun for 2 seconds to 15/25/35 for 2.6 seconds
    -Keep Shatter at T2 but regain energy if target is killed. Reduce cooldown by 1 second. Other mechanics to remain as present
    -Righteousness to grant 0.3 damage reduction (not armor) and 0.1 HP/Shield regen per stack

    For Order, he's not really as good as you make him out to be. People just take Order because he has some tanking potential and isn't confined to Flamethrower MK-3 like the Pyro is. Order is actually very fragile and energy intensive and doesn't need quite as many nerfs as suggested. I've toned the numbers slightly on Smite and the damage reduction is justified by it being a T2 and flamer losing base shield armor.

    For Pyro, I'm OK with injector getting replaced by napalm nade, but I think the damage is rather high for a T1 and the cooldown is too high to be useful as well. Would change to:
    30 damage per second for 4/5.5/7 seconds with cooldown of 9.
    While affected by napalm grenade, getting hit by Burst Fire/Inferno causes target to take 100% bonus damage from the latter-applied skill and lose the napalm debuff. Getting hit by BURN would result in BURN starting at max stack right away.
  7. HipHopDragon
    • Warden

    HipHopDragon Warden

    Replying to the rest later, just wanted to point out that its worse than Contaminate already so i dont see whats the problem with its dps.
  8. Ghost
    • Warden

    Ghost Warden

    Sec Team damage is generally higher than that of other storyline classes. Also, Contaminate does FF
  9. Ramses II
    • Donator

    Ramses II Help, I can't change my title!

    I dislike napalm grenade. I think pyro flamer should be a class designed around using his flamethrower to the best of his abilities. To that effect, all of his tier 1 and tier 2 talents make sense, his tier 3 doesn't. IMO changes to pyro should be:

    1. remove burst fire cooldown, reduce energy cost by 10, reduce initial aoe by 1, increase level 3 aoe by 1, gives enemies effect "Burst Fire" for 3/6/9 seconds
    2. remove range increase to igniter, replace with increased attack speed by 10/20/30%, give level 3 the ability to hit air
    3. make frenzy proc on all kills, with +25/50% damage to units under "Burst Fire" effect
    4. keep burn the way it is
    5. Change inferno to Flameheart (or some other name), basic upgrade to burst fire, igniter, and frenzy, upgrade burn to cap at 250 or 300 max dps

    not really sure how I feel about orderthrower, though the only issues I really had with it initially were the power of smite and worthlessness of righteousness.
  10. Kith
    • Development Team
    • Designer

    Kith NOTD Staff: Anti-Fun Wizard Skeleton

    So do you enjoy being wrong, or?

    Except not at all. In non-high level storylines where there is no Commando or Combat Engineer, double Flamethrower does happen. And they almost always go Order because Order is objectively better. If DrawingDead was still around, I would call upon him to assist me in this. He often soloed EC NM, and according to him out of all of the classes in NOTD (sans the pre-nerf Technician) Sub Marksman and the Order Flamer made soloing the easiest.

    It's hardly overkill. It's not going to make the Flamethrower a fragile snowflake. Yes, it will make Alpha more difficult - the Flamethrower won't be able to facetank as much. Pyro shouldn't be tanking in the first place and the Order has more disables than the Demo. Also, I'd like to point out that the Flamethrower would still have more shields than the Assault, who operates just fine.

    The +1 range is there to make people actually micro it in exchange for being able to hit air. Alternately, it can be +2. I don't want to put a "hit air for x seconds" into Marine Actions or anything, I just want the damn thing to be able to hit air all day period and the penalty for that being the Flamethrower has to micro his character and his weapon to make it as effective as before.

    Ahahahaha no this was not entirely for Burn's sake. Napalm Grenade is there to give the Flamethrower some range other than Burn and Inferno. It just happened to turn out that it synergized well with Burn.

    Dogg, H-3 is out. As in gone. I want the only passive on this tree to be Frenzy.

    Surprise, Smite's damage wasn't actually nerfed. In the end, it's still the same amount of damage. While it's powerful, it's what the class is based around. It just comes into play a little too early so I moved it to tier 2.

    I have zero idea where you got the idea that I want Shatter to be an AOE. Go back and read it again. Shatter is remaining a single-target skill. I'd also like to mention that Shatter at Level 3 only serves to refund the energy cost of the skill if you kill something with it. You're not gaining energy.

    Yeah, it is. It's also removing 50% of the armor bonus and I've cut sustain from other areas of the character. The Orderthrower is already built around smiting like crazy, so I can't see fault in building upon that.

    I'm also giving him healing via Smite, which he uses much more often than any other skill. The Orderthrower is too self-sustainable with the ailment removal. He can stand to eat a medkit after Faith (or rely on the Righteousness regen) and leave the Medic to using Restoration and then healing ailments.

    I'd also like to point out that if the Flamethrower doesn't facetank, then Faith + Ailments will not leave them in a risky position. The Faith Ailment removal was something that was added a while back, and before that point, the Orderthrower was STILL extremely powerful. I don't think it should stay.

    I personally think the shield armor should be reduced more. He's still got more shields and shield armor than the Assault, even after the reduction. I also believe that the Flamethrower needs to be able to hit air, period. Yes, it's a pure buff, but he also loses a great deal of potential damage from H-3 igniter and it's not like Orderthrowers used the Flamethrower anyways. I think that the "con" to the Flamethrower is already present in the fact that the Flamethrower explodes into napalm when he dies. I also tacked on additional range to the weapon, so if the player wants to make a full use of it, they have to micro more than they did before.

    I am very glad that we see eye-to-eye on the subject of Burst Fire, though. I thought that would be a more difficult pitch.

    I avoided doing almost exactly this because I designed almost exactly that for Diode's map. It also does not solve the Flamethrower's range problems, as he must still get within Burst Fire range to set it off.

    Energy Intensive, sure. Fragile? Are we discussing the same character? The Orderthrower is on-par with the Psi-Ops in terms of character effectiveness. He is STUPID POWERFUL. Due to his durability, maneuverability, and ease of access, I'd go so far as to rank him as the most powerful character in NOTD at this point in time.

    Run a survival game of eight Orderthrowers. Sure, you can't -kill- anything with Smite, but you can shred most of its hitpoints and then pick it off for a paltry ammo cost. On top of that, everything is permanently slowed, and let's not even get started on how quickly Bosses die. The best part is that all eight of you only need to be a whopping Level 3 to pull off this amazing feat! Now, granted, with the Class Limitation in place, this is only going to happen if someone organizes such a silly game, but my point is that you can get an easy game of NM Survival with eight level 3 dudes. The other super wacky team combinations usually take until Tier 2 to do something stupid, but Orderthrower doesn't even need to get out of Tier 1.

    It's high damage and high cooldown because it's supposed to require skill in its application. Not all Tier 1s need to be spammable. I'm also going to pass on the skill synergy - I don't want it to become something that players are obligated to open with and I don't want to cut down on the positioning requirement of Burn. Also, max stack Level 2 Burn instantly? I'm trying to make the Pyro viable, not overpowered.

    As Ghost pointed out, the grenade does not deal friendly fire. It also slows more than Contaminate does (via venom stacks).
    This doesn't solve his range problem. Cutting out Inferno makes it even worse, actually. The issue with the Pyrothrower is not that he doesn't deal enough damage, but because almost all of his skills are either short range or slow (or both) in a campaign where all of the other classes available do not have these problems. The only skill that is long range and fast acting is Inferno, and I'm pretty sure everyone here can attest to the marked increased in effectiveness and kill count that happens when the Pyrothrower finally hits Tier 3.
  11. Ramses II
    • Donator

    Ramses II Help, I can't change my title!

    Range is not a problem. When do alpha games fail? Actually, that's the wrong question. When do alpha games NOT fail? They DON'T fail when you're sitting in the fort fighting waves. When is range an issue? When you're sitting in the fort fighting waves.

    The only problem with giving flamethrower low range is that he has trouble leveling when you're sitting in the fort fighting waves. Pyrothrower doesn't need range, that's the whole point. His weakness is that he can't do shit to stuff outside the range of his flamethrower, besides using burn. He should be a weapons dps class, not a caster.
  12. Kith
    • Development Team
    • Designer

    Kith NOTD Staff: Anti-Fun Wizard Skeleton

    It's not a question of when Alpha games do or don't fail. We push "stay with the team" over and over and then we make a character that is required to be close range which is often away from the team in a storyline that features a tank with a passive stun that makes bosses retarget. In a vacuum a close-range fighter is fine and dandy, but this isn't a vacuum. Alpha games succeed regularly but if even if the player goes for kills (something I've done regularly when testing Pyro) they end up with maybe 300 for the entire game. Considering that they're supposed to be the "big DPS" for that storyline and the "big DPS"es from the other storlyines average about 700, short range isn't cutting it.

    Also, I think we have too many weapons dps classes because they are easy, if not boring. The more castables we put on a character, the more power we have over a unique implementation, which I vastly prefer over "another DPS" when every storyline has access to the Rifleman. The only reason that the Arms Assault is a Weapons DPS is because he's the first storyline heavy, so he's supposed to be simple. The Flamethrower is still a powerful DPS character, you just have to use the abilities to get Frenzy stacks and then you can maintain the momentum. I'm not undercutting the Flamethrower's ability to deal damage with his namesake weapon, but I'm not going to make it the entire focus of the class either when it's so extremely limited in scope.
  13. Ramses II
    • Donator

    Ramses II Help, I can't change my title!

    We have arms assault for EC, pyro flamer for alpha, and gunslinger pathy for sec. Those are the pure weapons dps classes. Why would a pyrothrower be anywhere near a boss? He has burn for bosses, which has something like 9 range. He's not there to be the "big DPS" any more than gunslinger is. He's there to mop up anything that gets dangerclose to the team. The only time pyrothrower is ever away from the team is when people playing him try to whore during the fort waves, and you really don't even have to do that to be at the necessary level to do your job. You ARE undercutting the pyrothrower's ability to deal damage with his namesake weapon because there's absolutely no reason for him to even use his flamethrower anymore. Sure, you need it for burn and burst fire, but once he has inferno it would be silly for him to be worried about using burst fire, as he doesn't have the energy for both inferno and burst fire, especially if he's using napalm grenades as well (yes, I know you reduced the energy cost of burst and napalm grenades are only 1 energy per second). He'd use a weapon that will get him more kills and hold on to a flamer in his inventory for burning bosses.
  14. Ghost
    • Warden

    Ghost Warden

    Regarding your NM survival sidenote, you can have 2 lvl3 mono MMs and 1 lvl3 Countermeasures Recon for even more fun than what 3 lvl3 order flamers can do over time. Plus, you can actually disable the bosses which the order flamer cannot at lvl3.

    Order flamer with no dps support is very fragile. If you can't get enough creeps to boost your armor on, heavies or several mediums (hulk/seeker) quickly kill you. Flamer gets more survivability when he gets Faith, but pre Faith, your extra bit of shield armor doesn't keep you alive much longer. Your base HP is the same as that of rifleman.

    Also, he doesn't have more disables than the Demo as you claim. Flamer has Smite, Faith and Vengeance. Demo has Sap, IYF, Look, TTD.
  15. Kith
    • Development Team
    • Designer

    Kith NOTD Staff: Anti-Fun Wizard Skeleton

    Forgot about Sap, so that puts them at equal disables. My mistake. Also, I don't consider Taunt a disable. I consider it a Taunt. It's crowd control, but it does not specifically disable enemies, so it's not a disable.

    Also, I'm aware that you could do Mono, but Mono A: does not handle the several thousand hitpoint bosses that Survival throws at you and B: can damage/kill teammates. Countermeasures, conversely, simply slows things down. While useful, it does not work on bosses and it doesn't deal damage like Smite does.

    Ozy, you conveniently left out the Combat Rifleman and the Combat Engineer and the Subtlety Marksman and the Operations Commando in the "weapons DPS" category. There are plenty of these kinds of characters, and I see absolutely no reason to make the Flamethrower one as well when he's got so much potential as a caster with a supplemental DPS skill based on momentum.
  16. Ramses II
    • Donator

    Ramses II Help, I can't change my title!

    Each storyline has its own specific to that storyline weapons dps. You can get combat rifleman, combat engineer, subtlety marksman, and operations commando in multiple storylines.
  17. Kith
    • Development Team
    • Designer

    Kith NOTD Staff: Anti-Fun Wizard Skeleton

    It doesn't need a "specific to that storyline" weapons DPS when there are already two that are always available and two that are available 2/3rds of the time.
  18. Ghost
    • Warden

    Ghost Warden

    Outside of wave 35+ bosses in survival, none of them have over 7-8k hp, which is 700-800 dmg on first smite and much less thereafter.
    Also, you are right CM doesn't slow bosses, but Smite doesn't either, so fair comparison.
  19. Ramses II
    • Donator

    Ramses II Help, I can't change my title!

    Yes it does. I find it important that the dps from each storyline feels different, and that means having a different class putting forth that dps. I'd also appreciate it if you'd respond to my comment.
  20. Kith
    • Development Team
    • Designer

    Kith NOTD Staff: Anti-Fun Wizard Skeleton

    I disagree, considering that Smite deals damage and Countermeasures doesn't, but we're nitpicking.
    Yeah, and it feels pretty different when the heavy weapons DPS guy gets replaced by a character who primarily relies on casting abilities rather than shooting a bunch. You're not making a case for yourself, you're making a case against yourself.

    Also, I'm not sure which comment you mean. I'm sorry if I missed one, but I'm pretty sure I responded to everything.

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