Flamethrower H3 Level 3 Targetting Air?

Discussion in 'NOTD Discussion' started by Ability, Apr 7, 2012.

  1. Ability
    • Development Team
    • NOTD Creator

    Ability NOTD Creator

    Thoughts?

    I prefer for it not to be there but I can see the rationale. Kithrixx has suggested it. Imo, every class needs its weaknesses. The flamer is already relatively strong on ground, so anti-air should be its weakness imo. Otherwise, Flamethrower is too versatile?
  2. Seeky

    Seeky New Member

    No I don't think its a good idea. If you wanna buff Flamer's anti air capabilities, I suggest that Burst fire be a OHKO for Gargoyles and Wraiths, but not Stranglers. Though I think its fine the way it is right now.
  3. Lord NiteShade
    • Wiki Founder
    • Community Leader

    Lord NiteShade NOTD Staff: Wiki Founder/TeamSpeak Admin

    Its not terribly versatile in that it's not THAT long range. On NM alpha we tend to stay FAR away from hordes, ie, in the back of the fort during the pre-Demeter up until Post-Demeter hordes. We shell everything with artillery and pound away at it with dps. Pyro flamers barely get to reach enemies, let alone use skills on them. His only skill with any reasonable range is Inferno, and by the time he get's it Arty FO's have napalm, which is pretty much "king aoe".

    If you want to buff burst fire, make it deal extra to light units, then it's somewhat better against ground, but mostly better against flyers.
  4. Kith
    • Development Team
    • Designer

    Kith NOTD Staff: Anti-Fun Wizard Skeleton

    Considering how hard it is to make use of the Flamethrower weapon in Alpha due to it being incredibly difficult to get close to the enemies because of the high frequency of Friendly Fire capable abilities in addition to the high count of Infested Marinese, I don't think it's too unreasonable to make the Flamethrower hit air with Level 3 H-3. It will allow him to defend himself against air units, and considering that the class is focused on making the Flamethrower into a better weapon and several different skills that involve creative and skillful use of the weapon, I don't think it would make it unbalanced/unreasonable by any stretch of the imagination.

    Also, it would make the class more likely to stick with its namesake weapon. The Order Flamethrower tends to pick up the Shotgun, and I've seen Pyros all but abandon their flamethrowers in favor of something more hurty once Inferno is gotten, and only pulling out their Flamethrowers for the usage of Burn. Maximum Frenzy stacks on an HMG is a pretty frightening sight, although difficult to pull off due to Burst Fire's difficulty of use.

    I think a bonus versus Light for Burst Fire would be contextually appropriate and also make Burst Fire more suited to fighting mobs of light enemies and leave Inferno to fighting the heavier enemies. At the moment, Inferno is a far more powerful, ground-based version of Burst Fire.
  5. ArcturusV

    ArcturusV New Member

    Hmm... I think the higher priority would be making Helium-3 Igniter a bit less of a Newbie Trap talent...

    ... lets ignore the can of worms that opened up last time I said that...

    Simply put in 80% of the situations with Flamethrowering, the Helium-3 Igniter makes it weaker. Having it so the AoE is fatter on it instead of longer, and thus hopefully doesn't distort the damage packets would be a more ideal focus for putting it on the Flamethrower.

    Burst Fire getting a bonus vs. light. So the progression went something like 50 (70 vs Light), 100 (140 vs light), 150 (210 vs light) should work.

    Reasoning for this is that 150 just isn't enough to snipe out Wraiths and Gargoyles on harder ratings/nightmare. Considering that Light isn't THAT common of a type, and other than Gargoyles/Wraiths there's nothing I can think of that's Light which 210 would snipe out that 150 wouldn't.

    Edit: Even if Helium-3 Powered Flamethrowers hit air... it wouldn't be THAT huge of a concern. Forget balancing for Easy Company or something, the Air Threat in Alpha Company is almost non-existant anyway outside the Strangler waves that come after Nexii Destruction/Toxin Use. It's a weird fluke of probability if you see two fliers close together for the most part.
  6. Arturia

    Arturia Well-Known Member

    Burst fire would be Anti-Light; capable of picking off light units with ease, though less effective against the though armored caraspace of the stronger zombies.

    Inferno would be Anti-Armored; punishing the enemy for being armored by dealing additional damage per point of armor/ vs armored or wrecking the armor after its explosion, and dealing DoT damage prior to its explosion. (Burning from Within yet no Damage? Strange)
  7. Kith
    • Development Team
    • Designer

    Kith NOTD Staff: Anti-Fun Wizard Skeleton

    I see what you did there.

    But, like Arc said, the flyer count in Alpha isn't that particularly high, but it's very frustrating when you have a class designed around using a specific weapon not being able to make use of it versus a flying enemy.
  8. Lord NiteShade
    • Wiki Founder
    • Community Leader

    Lord NiteShade NOTD Staff: Wiki Founder/TeamSpeak Admin

    Highest recorded Gargoyle health is 206, so these numbers are right on the money. And Arct is correct, anything land based thats light (excluding Huggers) that would be killed by Burst fire with bonus to light, would also be killed by BF without bonus damage.
  9. ArcturusV

    ArcturusV New Member

    If Burst Fire got the vs. light progression like that though, I would be fine without being able to hit air in general. Only place where I'd see it becoming an issue in particular is the aforementioned Strangler Rush. And I can accept that, not like every class has a way to use all it's talents every single event of it's own storyline... I'm lookin' at you Demo.
  10. Ghost
    • Warden

    Ghost Warden

    Was wanting to post the burst fire vs light in suggestions actually besides -5 cost and cooldown down to 3.
    H3 does not need to hit air.
  11. Lyanden

    Lyanden Well-Known Member

    I too support making Burst Fire more effective vs light classed units over allowing H3 level 3 to target air for the reasons stated by the previous posters.

    In addition, I do not agree that the Flamethrower's pyro tree being specialized with use of the flamer means it should allow him to hit air with the weapon. It's not like he didn't have any other means to target air units after all.

    Burn (which I personally use a lot vs air targets), BurstFire, switching to a different gun (class does have an impressive inventory space)
  12. Jercy

    Jercy Well-Known Member

    This.
  13. ArcturusV

    ArcturusV New Member

    That said... there is a problem with the Flamethrower (Of either tree) in Alpha Company. In so far as that the nature of it, dropping long range bombs and mass AoE destruction doesn't really fit the Flamethrower style.

    Hell, if it wasn't for Eos and the nature of her attacks I'd almost suggest switching Flamethrower and Assault, as in general the Flamethrower class (either tree) is much more ideal to how Easy Company is build up (Other than Eos). And an Assault can fairly easily tank Alpha Company, just as well as a Flamethrower in general, and the Arms Assault fits in with the play style a lot more than the Pyro Flamethrower does necessarily.

    It's something that needs a more in depth look than dealing with any one individual talent. The Flamethrower is built as a close range class in a storyline where getting close range is something that typically doesn't happen. Or can't happen because you have far too much dangerous AoE bombs being dropped. Though that's in part a problem with players. Doesn't matter how much I light up targets that aren't right in the Flamethrower's wheelhouse they still drop it right next to/on top of him...
  14. Zuriel

    Zuriel Well-Known Member

    I am for H3 level 3 to target air.

    Reasons: Currently, only burst fire (pyro tree) can damage air units. When small numbers of gargoyles appear, it makes more sense to burn them off individually than to use burst fire on each gargoyle. Not only is it more energy effective, it also removes the Achilles heel of the flamer: inability to handle air mobs. This will not make flamer OP because you have to spend 2 more talent points in H3 than usual, or tweak your build to add H3 instead of burst fire or frenzy-both of which have decent synergy, and will therefore keep the class balanced.

    Some questions I have: does H3 damage increase affect burn?
    If not, I think it should, thus allowing pyro flamers to choose to be more anti light mobs, or more anti boss.

    Also, I think inferno should deal more dps to zombies with armour. The greater the armour value, the greater the damage multiplier. Reason being inferno causes zombies to burn from within, thus thicker armour => greater boiling effect.
  15. Lyanden

    Lyanden Well-Known Member

    By Burn them, I'm assuming you mean attack.

    Also, you can literally use "Burn!" on them if you want to take out the fliers 1 at a time (if they come in small numbers). Hence my argument of "no need for H3 to hit air". The Pyro has both an anti air that's for groups and for individual targets in its tree already.

    Inferno's splash also hits air if you want to be fancy with how you take your flying enemies down. :p
  16. Zuriel

    Zuriel Well-Known Member

    I meant burn! Its not practical to cast Burn! On individual mobs. The skill uses too much energy to be useful that way.
  17. Ghost
    • Warden

    Ghost Warden

    10 energy is extremely cheap for BURN! I use it vs any large mobs and bosses primarily also for the -10 armor debuff, but also for lone mutas.
    Group of muta, use burst fire.

    Don't want to spend energy, use your knife.

    The other thing of course is, what are your teammates doing / why are you alone
  18. Lyanden

    Lyanden Well-Known Member

    ^ what he said
  19. Zuriel

    Zuriel Well-Known Member

    Scouting etc. There are situations that you get separated from your team. Let's not disregard that.

    Even if H3 level 3 were to be able to hit air, mutas would take >1 hit to get down. It doesn't really throw the class off balance.

    Say if a player goes 3 H3 and 1 burst, 2 Burn! 2 frenzy and inferno, he should be able to deal more dps for Burn! High profile targets like bosses should go down faster with this build.

    I hope to see Burn! And H3 go together to make it a specialised anti boss build.

    3 burst 1 H3 2 burn! 2 frenzy and inferno should make the pyro more light mob oriented instead.
  20. Lyanden

    Lyanden Well-Known Member

    I play in such a way that Frenzy and Burn are a tad mutually exclusive as intending to use Burst for the last hit to get the Frenzy buff means you generally want it to have a higher damage.

    Attacking more means you use Burn less and I'm pretty sure you want to attack more while Frenzy is stacked. There's also the emergency situation where you just want the Frenzy buff to run away but that also means you are not using Burn.

    Priority on Crowd control
    (If team is mostly single target DPS)
    1 H3, 3 Burst, 2 Frenzy, 3 H3, Inferno,
    Burst for Frenzy then equip a H3fied Flamer/Shotgun/CG/etc

    Anti-air = another gun aside from Flamer and Burst. (class has an impressive inventory space)
    Inferno splash if you're fancy.


    Alternatively,
    (If team is boss ownage oriented)
    Priority for High priority targets
    1 H3, 3 Burst, 2 Burn, 3 H3, Inferno,

    Anti-air = another gun aside from Flamer, Burst, Burn. (class has an impressive inventory space)
    Inferno splash if you're fancy


    So you see, in both methods, I get level 3 H3 and have never felt the need for my flamer to hit air even when alone and isolated.


    Also, 3 Burst + Inferno kind of immediately makes you good against both heavy unit and light unit crowds.
    Light mob? Burst fire.
    Heavy mob? Inferno > Burst fire.
    Heavy mob with light units? Infero > Burst fire.

    OR if you're afraid of getting up-close and personal just
    Inferno > run + Inferno > run + Inferno. heh.


    If however you're unable or fundamentally averse to the idea of a Flamethrower switching weapons (even though the class has an impressive inventory space)
    then I cannot help :|
    ===========================================================================

    Also, while Burn may feel a tad underwhelming v.s. bosses when used alone

    (For a tier 2 talent that requires no combo with another talent, it's not btw. Observe damage dealt over a 20 second period with constant Burn... or even a 10 second period actually)

    , it helps the team's overall DPS with the -10 armor the target gets.

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