Explosive Demolitionist's Satchel and/or Tier 1 Suggestions

Discussion in 'Class Discussion' started by squish, Sep 12, 2012.

  1. squish

    squish Well-Known Member

    Because we all know that everyone's wanting the two mine talents to be combined into one. I propose:

    Mine replicators: The demolitionist installs replicators that create mines and deploy them using a set amount of energy. Increasing the skill point here increases the effectiveness of mines placed, and the efficiency of THE REPLICATOR! Blaqk was here.

    pretty straightforward. combine mines and create mines into one.

    Thermite Filaments (passive)
    The demolitionist programs his replicator to introduce thermite filaments into the explosives he creates (max stack of 1 on all levels)
    Level 1: 5 damage per per second from mines satchels and Armageddon charges for 5 seconds
    level 2: 10 damage per second for 5 seconds
    level 3: 20 damage per second for 5 seconds.
    Each new stack refreshes the timer.
  2. Kith
    • Development Team
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    Kith NOTD Staff: Anti-Fun Wizard Skeleton

    RE: Explosive Demolitions Tier 1 rework thread

    I'm actually not okay with this. For the longest time I was an advocate of Mine Create/Mine Lay become a single ability and introduce a new Tier 1, but...

    Honestly? Explo Demo is a monster. He is capable of doing so much damage, and is basically an ambient spawn deterrent. He's also got a huge defensive potential. For instance, EC Muta or the Fort: Just drop mines like crazy at the entrance.

    Demo's explo T1 is fine. What need to be examined is his Tier 2, because Satchel is... well, kind of shitty compared to Armageddon.
  3. Pyromaniac

    Pyromaniac Well-Known Member

    RE: Explosive Demolitions Tier 1 rework thread

    To further expand on this, in a game with infinite energy (easy with a chem around) spamming satchel still only manages to get to arma in terms of destruction. spending infinite energy on mines is superior to spamming satch (exception being queen, 1 time exceptions not being worthwhile)
  4. Kith
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    Kith NOTD Staff: Anti-Fun Wizard Skeleton

    RE: Explosive Demolitions Tier 1 rework thread

    Mines are much more versatile and, IIRC, are more energy efficient than Satchels are, in addition to being non-time sensitive. Mines do everything that satchels do and are infinitely less awkward to use.

    That said, if I were to suggest a replacement for Satchel, I'd ask for an anti-tank rocket. Really all the Demo is missing is a high damage, low AOE skill, and those are... fairly common in the explosives world. Rocket-propelled shaped charges should not be hard to come by.
  5. Arturia

    Arturia Well-Known Member

    RE: Explosive Demolitions Tier 1 rework thread

    There has got to be some way to take down Tanks and Aircraft.

    It should just be a Rocket Launcher skill that can be launched at the ground.
  6. Kith
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    Kith NOTD Staff: Anti-Fun Wizard Skeleton

    RE: Explosive Demolitions Tier 1 rework thread

    So I did some figuring and it turns out that 6 mines at Level 3 mine effectiveness is just barely less efficient than a level 2 Satchel in terms of energy to damage (1:16 for mines vs. 1:18 for satchels), and mines are WAY easier to use than Satchels are (in addition to the Mines being much less likely to result in team death).

    Satchels should get a pretty earthshaking buff or be replaced with something that's worth using.
  7. Miracle
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    Miracle NOTD Staff: Assistant of many things

    RE: Explosive Demolitions Tier 1 rework thread

    Armageddon bomb seems to make satchels redundant, what about a passive ability so you can spend more time making mines?

    Maybe... Explosives Mastery?
    Description: With years of experience at dealing with ae than enough to develop explosives that are more efficient and potent.
    Effects:
    Level 1 - Increased mine and armageddon bomb radius.
    Level 2 - Reduce energy cost of mines and armageddon bomb by 5, maximum mines you can carry increased by 15.
  8. Kith
    • Development Team
    • Designer

    Kith NOTD Staff: Anti-Fun Wizard Skeleton

    RE: Explosive Demolitions Tier 1 rework thread

    Nah. Mines are already pretty stupid in terms of power, and I'd rather not replace Satchel with an ability that, again, just encourages the player to do nothing but mine everything. Again, I'd like to see a high-damage, single target or small AOE anti-armor rocket specifically geared towards fucking up Agrons and bosses.
  9. ArcanePariah
    • Development Team
    • Map Developer

    ArcanePariah Miracle Worker

    RE: Explosive Demolitions Tier 1 rework thread

    One issue to take into consideration is that the damage mines do in the skill tree is a simplification. In reality, mines do bonus to armor and even more bonus to light, and the damage to Heroic is still substantial.

    Kith is right that Exploder could use a directed damage ability. Right now Armageddon is a super remote mine with a after effect and mines are a fire and forget and both reward good planning. Satchel is out of place, it is spur of the moment and rewards whoring if anything.

    The problem I'm having is that anything I can think of has been taken by either FO/Flamer/Commando/Engineer. Although Demo is EC exclusive so maybe a little leeway in being similar to classes in other stories with one ability.
  10. Ramses II
    • Donator

    Ramses II Help, I can't change my title!

    RE: Explosive Demolitions Tier 1 rework thread

    Here are 2 ideas I had for satchel replacement:

    Dr. Device (30 energy cost, 10 casting radius, 20 second cooldown)
    The demolitions fires an experimental explosive weapon at a target. The power of the Dr. Device will bounce to other nearby infested targets as well. It deals more damage the greater the mass of the target, and bounces farther. 1 second in between each bounce.

    Level 1 - 100 damage + 100 vs armored, massive, heroic, bounces to targets within a radius of .5 +.5 vs armored and massive, .5 splash radius for each explosion, maximum 5 bounces.
    Level 2 - 100 damage + 200 vs armored, massive, heroic, bounces to targets within a radius of .5 +1 vs armored and massive, 1 splash radius for each explosion, maximum 10 bounces.

    No idea if the numbers are balanced, someone else can do that part. You get the idea of the talent though. Friendly fire not possible, only affects infested targets (so no BO, thors, naz, etc). Although, if you have Bob on your team, it will affect him.

    Bunker Buster Rocket (30 energy cost, 15 casting radius, 20 second cooldown)
    The Demolitions fires a rocket at a single target, dealing massive damage with minimal splash, increased damage for armored, massive, and heroic targets. FRIENDLY FIRE POSSIBLE

    Level 1 - 200 +100 vs armored, massive, heroic, 100 damage in a 2 radius around the primary target.
    Level 2 - 400 +200 vs armored, massive, heroic, 200 damage in a 2 radius around the primary target.

    Again, not sure about the numbers here, when you compare them to osok remember to take into account the cooldown.
  11. ComradeHX

    ComradeHX Well-Known Member

    I want a skill like this:
    Spider mines Strike Back!

    Demolitions is so good at working with mines that he not only upgrades damage, but also improves mines' AI and durability of legs so they are good enough to follow Demo or his squadmate(they will be like pets, non-targetable to enemies) around and engage target efficiently instead of sticking to ground.

    Level 1: + 50% damage, 25% less FF, mines in inventory follow Demo/teammate(controllable via action menu) and automatically(or manually, controlled in action menu) stunning enemy(heroic units immune) for 0.5 seconds before explosion. Range 3
    Level 2: + 100% damage, 50% less FF, mines in inventory follow Demo/teammate(controllable via action menu) and automatically(or manually, controlled in action menu) stunning enemy(heroic units immune) for 0.5 seconds before explosion. Range 3

    Basically this just lets Demo have a little more flexibility in defense of teammates other than laying down minefield for holdout. Now he can make mines follow that teammate who is going around alone for whatever reason. Also allow mines to be used offensively with a little risk.
  12. squish

    squish Well-Known Member

    How bout this: M268 AT8 Rocket Launcher (AOE target, same area of effect as satchel)
    200 damage + 200 vs armored + 3 range push AWAY from demo.
    400 + 400 damage vs armored + 5 range push AWAY from demo. <push is massive units only
    Lore: Upgraded old earth technology derived from anti tank rockets utilizing the same 88mm HEAT warhead, with compounds being far superior to the older variant.
  13. Ryan III

    Ryan III Well-Known Member

    That would also make mines more stupid in terms of damage, and mines with delta mando makes the game a lot easier.
  14. Kith
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    Kith NOTD Staff: Anti-Fun Wizard Skeleton

    ... dude, those pet mines are angry as fuck. Not happening.

    Ozy, your rocket looks good. Cut the cooldown to 10 and I'd say we have an answer to our Satchel problem.
  15. Ramses II
    • Donator

    Ramses II Help, I can't change my title!

    Bunker Buster Rocket (30 energy cost, 15 casting radius, 10 second cooldown)
    The Demolitions fires a rocket at a single target, dealing massive damage with minimal splash, increased damage for armored, massive, and heroic targets. FRIENDLY FIRE POSSIBLE

    Level 1 - 200 +100 vs armored, massive, heroic, 100 damage in a 2 radius around the primary target.
    Level 2 - 400 +200 vs armored, massive, heroic, 200 damage in a 2 radius around the primary target.
  16. Blaze

    Blaze New Member

    My idea
    Javelin Anti-Tank Rockets
    (45 energy cost, 20 casting range, 1 second set up time, 15 second cd)
    The Demolitions sets up a Launcher, Takes aim, and fires

    Level 1 - 225 damage +100 vs armored, massive, heroic, 50% damage done to main target done to targets in a 1.5 radius
    Level 2 - 450 damage +150 vs armored, massive, heroic, 75% damage done to main target done is a 2 radius
    this rocket has a backblast so anyone behind demo when he fires pushes allies and enemies back 4 and stuns for 1.5 secs
  17. Kith
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    Kith NOTD Staff: Anti-Fun Wizard Skeleton

    UA3 this ain't. No.

    Edit: I'd be less dismissive if NOTD followed the equipment philosophy that UA3 did, but it does not. NOTD's classes all have their own kinds of powered armor specifically geared towards their purpose, and the Demo is very obviously outfitted for blowing things up. This is opposed to the Javelin Gunner who is literally just a grunt with rocket launchers. Training to use said launchers very well, yes, but you can't really beat having them built in and integrated.
  18. Blaqk
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    Blaqk NOTD Staff: Operations and Web

    The only issue with his rockets continues to be damage vs energy. I'll math it when I'm not on my phone.
  19. Kith
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    Kith NOTD Staff: Anti-Fun Wizard Skeleton

    Energy to Damage Ratio Comparison (single target)
    • Mines 1:16
    • Rocket (Base) 1:13.3
    • Rocket (1 Mod) 1:20
    • Rocket (2 Mod) 1:26.6
    • Rocket (3 Mod) 1:33.3

    Assuming the player hits something that is one of the three modifiers, then it's more efficient than mines by an appreciable amount. If they start hitting things that stack multiple modifiers like Agrons (who are Armored/Massive and will therefore take 800 damage) or Tartarus and Eos (who are Armored/Massive/Heroic and will therefore take 1000 damage), then the damage to energy exchange will be more than acceptable. It's just a question of knowing your target.

    Of course, it's always going to be a lucrative plan to stack mines at a boss spawn point, but now players will actually have a reason to save some energy for a rocket or two.
  20. ArcanePariah
    • Development Team
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    ArcanePariah Miracle Worker

    I like the bunker buster. The only thing I would request is that it have a small cast time, but the projectile to move much faster then a stinger. Another question in regards to AoE, does the game calculate AoE based the center of the model or the edge of the model? If it is based on the center, AoE 2 is way too little, it means it won't even affect anything when targeting anything with a decently large unit model (Devs and up, Agrons and Queen especially).

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