EXP Share

Discussion in 'NOTD Discussion' started by Kith, Jan 17, 2013.

  1. Lyanden

    Lyanden Well-Known Member

    Still is doing the mob's job though. I personally don't know why the decision to give it an inventory came through to be honest. If it could be removed completely, then I feel that would be all the better.

    Escape and countermeasures simply need to become more essential. I'm hoping the increases in difficulty will eventually fix this as the need to slow down waves becomes higher/more vital to actually surviving a game. If you will recall, the old "impossible to do alpha nm" only got its first wins when teams started fielding a mob con with 3 CM. Unfortunately that did not get as much publicity as alpha's start was changed COMPLETELY shortly after.

    And yes, there are far too many detectors in this game. (yes that is redundant grammar)

    I'm not saying it is underplayed because it levels less. Read again, i'm saying if that is truly one of his bigger reasons for this proposal, then the reaper changes should do.

    Also, the scouting patterns I think are only as doable as they are now because the speed bonus timing is STILL TOO LENIENT. If the speed bonus was to be made in such a way that people actually NEEDED to rush to places with taking the shortest routes possible, then I believe we would have gotten to an ideal risk vs reward balance for the game as a whole.
  2. Kith
    • Development Team
    • Designer

    Kith NOTD Staff: Anti-Fun Wizard Skeleton

    Lyanden, from a dev point of view, it makes my job SO much easier. Being able to gauge when and where the team gets certain abilities based on their progress through the game makes planning pitfalls and hurdles infinitely easier. It also brings more incentive to hunt for the Infestors, who boost the EXP rate of the team without sitting in one place and farming.

    I bring this suggestion forward because certain events are made trivial by having X Tier 3 by Y time. I can guarantee you that making Tier 3s harder to get by Y time by virtue of not being able to boost the clutch classes.

    Another thing about this is that it's taking a lot of the power from the clutch classes, making NOTD overall more difficult. Apollo Sec, for instance, used to be run by the Technician and the Psi Ops (it may still be, but it's been a while since I've played a sec and admittedly don't know). All that mattered was getting those two classes Tier 3 and then the game was practically won.

    EXP being shared equally therefore demands more attention from all players, as it's no longer entirely reliant on being carried by those few clutch classes and is more focused on the entire team putting their skills to use.

    Unfortunately, the Mobcon just kind of has a perfect storm of factors working against it even though it's well designed. I wouldn't mind nerfing the Survcon drone's inventory out of it, although I would like to see a different utility put in its place, such as a searchlight.
  3. Ghost
    • Warden

    Ghost Warden

    Lyanden: The drone does do a job the mob normally does, but it is a T3 while mob can scout starting from first point in T2. Also, to use the drone for scouting, the Surv rec isn't controlling himself and thus very fragile. Many deaths due to a scouting surv rec. I know you didn't say the part about XP, I was addressing Kithrixx point there and something others have noted, but can be avoided. Part of the reason mob is les useful is that DPS is so high that creeps die before they really get to you. Reducing DPS a bit like I'm discussing with Kith would provide a buff to mob rec on the side I hope.
    Also, reduced turn rates on creeps now might make mob rec a bit more obsolete which is why I advocate increasing turn rate of creeps to that of minis.

    Kith: Yes but the rework also included damage on weappon proficiency which I am suggesting is replaced with switch time reduction. Also, while Grenade and Nuke weren't factored, stuns/slows from Frenzy also weren't, because it is difficulty/impossible to include in calculations. Like I keep repeating, if we bring down weapon DPS to the ranges I suggested, we would bring Assault in line with other DPS classes rather than being through the roof. He would still remain very useful but not "IM GONNA PWN U ALLZ HURR"
    Remember what I wrote about Arms Assault getting more kills and outlevelling Rifle and Commando who are using Grenade and Nuke.


    In regards to XP share, I think a midpoint between Lyanden's model and the current model may be a good idea, + increasing share radius to say 9 from the current 6? However the total XP from the kill needs to be brought down in line so we dont overlevel everyone by doing this.
  4. Kith
    • Development Team
    • Designer

    Kith NOTD Staff: Anti-Fun Wizard Skeleton

    ... nnno? The rework featured a damage bonus for all of eight replies (and even then it was lower than the current value, 5%/10% iirc). It was gone, literally, before the first page ended.

    Grenades and Nukes should have been factored, considering that they deal damage and damage was what was being measured. Assault is on-par with the Commando who makes use of his nukes which I don't see as a problem because the Assault is more susceptible to being swarmed and will run out of energy way earlier.

    How's about Harvester gets switched to 40% Critical Strike flat with no damage bonus, in addition to the Blood Frenzy getting knocked down to 20/40 from 25/50? Would that aid in bringing things more in-line?

    I think it should be global and even. I don't care about leveling being done "in lockstep", I think it fixes way more problems than it causes.
  5. Lyanden

    Lyanden Well-Known Member

    The added predictability though would still be too much of a big factor in my eyes. It doesn't matter if you are ill equipped to face something, knowing exactly what is coming your way and having a uniform set of tools w/o variety for said parts takes too much out of the game.

    But then I suppose that depends on what these pitfalls are.
    There is, after all, making things harder (old alpha) which is just frustrating, and there is making things exhilarating (old hades).
    I look forward to those ideas then.

    A team risks more than just missed exp for the infestors. I feel even a need to level faster just won't cut it due to the potential to lose people, speed, dsm. The incentives are just not that attractive but that's a different discussion altogether.

    That depends on how the team plays their Apollo,
    and therein, I believe is the beauty of it,
    you are able to have radically different approaches to doing the storylines because the team builds can vary in more ways than just composition.

    Searchlight?

    Care to enlighten me? *cough* pun *cough*

    If the speed bonus is fixed to the point where teams cannot take the long way around to simultaneously scout and achieve objectives, then the Mob vs Surv choice would play a more vital role in the game and hence why I still wait for the speed bonus' further developments.

    Someone had mentioned 11-16 minutes upon arriving at the armory, I have seen it done in 9. More juice can be squeezed out of it, and I say please do so that the players are also squeezed with pressure by the game.

    I am hoping for the same. A combination of speed adjustments + this should help bring Mob back to the forefront.

    +1

    +1
  6. Kith
    • Development Team
    • Designer

    Kith NOTD Staff: Anti-Fun Wizard Skeleton

    Lyanden, I haven't slept in two days. I have no idea. I'm just throwing words at the screen right now because I have no clue what I'd do if I was to change the Reaper Drone. I'm already fucking with the Technician and the Flamethrower, and that's bad enough.

    I think that the shared EXP is something that would vastly benefit NOTD. Arcane is going to cook up a mockup system on a spare map to run some tests and see how it goes. We'll have definite, concrete data from there.
  7. Ghost
    • Warden

    Ghost Warden

    Kith: Yea that could work for the Assault. Though to be honest I'd rather reduce efficiency of earlier talents a bit rather than the T3. Say lower crit chance from Suppressive Fire but more from Harvester. I.e.: Concentrated Fire to (hypothetically) 1/2/5 and Harvester to 50% crit (same as your model, just delayed till T3) with Frenzy at 20/40.
  8. Kith
    • Development Team
    • Designer

    Kith NOTD Staff: Anti-Fun Wizard Skeleton

    Merry Kithmas.

    That said, back to EXP Share whatevers. I don't actually remember how this segued into a discussion about class balance.
  9. Lyanden

    Lyanden Well-Known Member

    Because it's one of the underlying reasons to want one and might fix itself if addressed sufficiently.

    Kind of like your old proposal with modifying MOTM, only both factors got accepted resulting in overly nerfing the tech.



    But if changes are to be made to the EXP sharing system alone, then I go with my suggestion in the first page, with the +1 from Ghost's amendment.
  10. Kith
    • Development Team
    • Designer

    Kith NOTD Staff: Anti-Fun Wizard Skeleton

    Adjusting the leveling rate of the Arms Assault and New Rifleman is not going to solve the problem of support classes being consistently screwed in the level race.
  11. Ghost
    • Warden

    Ghost Warden

    You are right Kith, though it will reduce the magnitude at which the support classes are "screwed" by a fair bit.
    This is why I based an amendment to XP sharing off Lyanden's suggestion to smooth things out a bit more without going into a lockstep levelling frame, which IMO would make the game really dull.
  12. Lyanden

    Lyanden Well-Known Member

    1 less kill from 1 guy = 1 more kill for another. Though I realize that of course is a very simplistic way of looking at things. I was also referring to class balance in a general way/not limited to what the thread had delved into.

    For now though, my vote is with these

  13. ArcanePariah
    • Development Team
    • Map Developer

    ArcanePariah Miracle Worker

    My issue is that now the developer is dictating EXACTLY how the game will be played. We are not longer presenting a situation and saying "Figure it out", we are dictating exactly the scope of how the situtaion will be dealt with. From my point of view, I would rather have seomthingthat allows me freedom in how I progress through the game, rather then game be dictated at me. It is removing a decision by players or teams on how they wish to go about handling certain situations. I feel it would be better to address each situation of "clutch" classes rather then apply a uniform solution that precludes any player experimentation or decision making.

    With uniform leveling, my decisions in terms of tactics becomes... dull. Right now, the leveling situation is fluid where the available skills for a given situation is unpredictable, dependent on personal choices, team choice and a degree of randomness. This leads to an (from a team point of view) dynamic leveling curve, each game leveling curve is going to be different then the last. Making flat XP makes it a leveling staircase, where the team grows in power at fixed intervals, instead of starts and stops. This in turn makes the game pacing feel like a stutter, you go X time, then boom your more powerful. Right now we have to make a concerted effort to get certain classes to certain skills. This will devolve into: Get X kills total among the team by Y time. No thought, no personal skill, just kill this much stuff by a given time in order to handle/do situation Z. Almost (and this is entirely subjective) makes me feel less of a player/character and more like a cog in a machine.

    That said, I do believe that the exp share scaling should be reexamined. Currently it works as follows:

    - Killer gets 100% of the exp the monster grants on kill.
    - Everyone in a radius 7 gets a fixed amount of exp per kill, regardless of how much the monster gave, this fixed amount is based on the class you are playing

    What could be done is give each class their own leveling profile, so kills by a given class share differently by % (Opcomm would gain 70% exp from a kill and share 30%, Recon would gain 95$ and share 5%, or whatever). We could also simply alter the exp needed per level for each class.

    Also to address the primary complaint of support classes being "boring". Many players live and die by them, they hate playing DPS, and would rather play the support because they find it more fun. I've know a fair number of players who either heavily or in some cases, exclusively play medic, they relish their 100+ CP in medic. The only support class this would really help is Mobcon and that's about it. Every other support class not played currently is not played because they either A) Are incredibly TK prone or B) Excluded because people somehow thing exped is the come all, end all to class selection, so only one tree is picked and the other is left out in the cold 90% of the time (Deso Chem, Nano Medic, Exploder Demo, Assault Tank to name a few). I would say we should raise the class limit to 3, because right team compositions are pidgeoholed because of that and some weird notion that exped shall always work (yeah it does, and no, it is not even close to optimal).

    Also, as detailed above, Mobcon does have a perfect storm, he is a greed class (3 skills only help him and him alone) and the other 2 skills have a prerequisite of A) Using bad strategy (Yes, holding on open ground against superior numbers and are faster then you is bad strategy) or B) Having poor skill, and to top it off, Escape is purely reactionary in nature, there isn't really a way to proactively use it, or there is, it is very niche in application. Even if we make speed harder to get, that isn't magically going to make mobcon necessary, because as some people have stated before in other discussions, the accumulated bonuses compensate heavily for lack of... almost everything, bought items can also compensate, and that you can, with skill, get away with using nothing but flamers/MM rifle and Gauss rifles, all of which you are assured to get multiples of (You are assured 3 MM rifles between mil and SY and MM will have one, 3 flamers between SY, hill left of airlock and mil base). Also yes, we have probably too many detectors, but that was to compensate for the outright cheeses/abuse 3 cloaked recons could do.
  14. Ghost
    • Warden

    Ghost Warden

    The fixed amount is actually dynamic based on the creep. Agrons give more shared xp than zombies and there's other examples too.

    I think if we changed it to 90%-5% for everything with minimum 0.25 experience point shared (as it is now), that would help matters, with bonus on med/rec staying (and possibly reduced slightly).
    Note the missing 5% because the monster overall is now giving a larger amount of XP. Probably easier to reduce the total kill xp though for calculations.
  15. Ability
    • Development Team
    • NOTD Creator

    Ability NOTD Creator

    I'm concerned that a fixed global XP share will make the game more dull as well. If it was really done, we just need to remove the entire monster XP system and it becomes wave/difficulty based XP adjustments. It's not exciting as a player in my opinion (10 mins in, do this, 20 mins in, do that). I would rather explore other options of driving better class XP growth. There are a number of background XP adjustments that have been refined in the past 2 years to ensure classes get what they need (not want). I consistently play Medic, Rifleman and Engy and all 3 do okay for me personally.

    We've not seen any major complaints about XP distribution being an issue now, and it gives teams the flexibility to play as they like. Recons have no major issue leveling when they are back in the team. They just need to 'whore' a bit if its essential. I also agree with the Assault adjustments.

    Overall, a global XP share is a fundamental shift in the game. I don't see this happening for NOTD. It changes some important dynamics of the game - with pros and cons, but I think this is coming a bit too late into the game's life cycle. I'm more okay to explore this for NOTD 2 if it's something that works. Are there any examples of cooperative/survival games that have a global XP share that we can get some evidence/research on? What do players think of those games?
  16. Kith
    • Development Team
    • Designer

    Kith NOTD Staff: Anti-Fun Wizard Skeleton

    Okay, so now that I've gotten some sleep.

    Ghost, I apologize for being difficult about the Assault.

    Everyone else, I apologize for not entirely thinking this through. Global EXP would indeed make the game kind of trek-ish, just getting from point A to point B with little variation. The Ghost/Lyanden system is the most attractive.

    I would like to examine the possibility of the Recon getting shared EXP at any point in the map rather than an increased exp share. Mobcon's "thing" is that he's supposed to be able to run off for items at any time. The Survcon is also really powerful, and I'd like to examine slowing his progression a bit.
  17. Arturia

    Arturia Well-Known Member

    Why not make certain abilities give EXP?

    I.e. if the mobcon uses escape, and it affects X players, he gets X exp. If he uses Counter Measures and affects x units, he gets x / 1.5x / 2x exp?
  18. ArcanePariah
    • Development Team
    • Map Developer

    ArcanePariah Miracle Worker

    Interesting idea Arturia and yes, could be done. The only issue is the obvious explotation of this. To use your example, a mobcon would be effectively encouraged to hit as many people with escape (good) but do it on every cooldown to maximize his gains, regardless of situation (bad). This could be balanced by making the exp gains very small so it will only add up over a long period and used correctly.
  19. Kith
    • Development Team
    • Designer

    Kith NOTD Staff: Anti-Fun Wizard Skeleton

    Not gonna happen. Escape would leash the Mobcon way too much. I'm working on something to buff the Mobcon uniquely to solve the problems.
  20. Ghost
    • Warden

    Ghost Warden

    As I was saying about mobcon, if you go scout at the right times you barely lose out and don't cause troubles. If you go scout whenever yo want, you don't only lose xp but harm the team as well.
    Just consider all the times when minis get dragged away from team because someone decided to run off or not being able to trigger an event because not all are there. Or even splitting dangerous mobs which then attack the team at a less opportune moment.

Share This Page