EXP Share

Discussion in 'NOTD Discussion' started by Kith, Jan 17, 2013.

  1. Kith
    • Development Team
    • Designer

    Kith NOTD Staff: Anti-Fun Wizard Skeleton

    So the biggest problem with NOTD is that it shares EXP unevenly, allowing DPS classes to snowball even if their DPS is reasonable in their proper situations (ex: the Pathfinder or the Flamethrower or the Commando or the Chem Expert or the Forward Observer).

    I think this is incredibly silly.

    NOTD is a team game. Whoring kills should not negatively impact the team as badly as it does. I think EXP needs to be shared between the players evenly and globally. Global EXP Share means that the Mobcon can go out and do his damn job, as can the Sub MM. It means that "whoring kills" no longer cripples the team because a single player decided to be selfish.

    While non-global exp share is technically a more appropriate system because this leads to teams having to work together, we have at least two classes that are required to be away from the team to achieve maximum efficiency and we have several classes that, when out of their respective storylines, consistently out-perform their teammates. I steadfastly believe that NOTD needs to change to even and global exp share, and I cannot see a reason to not do it this way.
  2. Peerawatz
    • Development Team

    Peerawatz NOTD Staff: Sound Mixer and NOTD Troll Chieftain

    This has been my curiosity for thousand years, NOTD is a team cooperative game, but not competitive, this is not DOTA, we don't need over-level carries (lol), I agreed that equally sharing is more probable solution, hell yes, I mean. Why must DPSER be penalized for being too awesome? Why must Support tries to kill more to be more awesome than dpser, shit never make senses.

    If one worries about then people will go solo and never return to help team, that's user error, and there are many more suitable punishments to them that doesn't involve crippling the whole team.
  3. Kith
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    Kith NOTD Staff: Anti-Fun Wizard Skeleton

    Arcane pointed out that the impression I'm giving is "if monster is worth 100 exp, all players in the game gain 100 exp".

    That's DEFINITELY not what I'm suggesting. What I'm suggesting is an even distribution, where if there are 8 players in the game, that 100 exp is split 8 ways. If there are 7, then it's split 7 ways, and if there are 4, it's split 4 ways, so on and so forth.

    What I'm advocating is a global range to the exp share and that the exp shared is even.
  4. Ghost
    • Warden

    Ghost Warden

    Would be inredibly boring for everyone to be the same level all the time, make it a bit too linear.

    Part of teamplay involves being responsible and not overlevelling without regard for everyone else or going off to solo whore.

    Another side effect is that ammo becomes a non-factor as 70% of the team doesn't even need to shoot and can just give their ammo to the dps guy for better effect.
  5. Kith
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    Kith NOTD Staff: Anti-Fun Wizard Skeleton

    And that "part of teamplay" means that certain classes are being held back and are thoroughly unpopular. I really, really don't like that.

    Side effect of ammo becoming a non-factor: I don't see how. Dumping literally ALL of the DPS responsibility on a single person is not going to kill a lot of teams. One person cannot handle all of the DPS.
  6. Ghost
    • Warden

    Ghost Warden

    70% is not 1 person. 70% is 2 and a bit for DPS.

    I also feel that the DPS output of some classes is still rather high, which may contribute to the effect of drastic outlevelling.
  7. Kith
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    • Designer

    Kith NOTD Staff: Anti-Fun Wizard Skeleton

    While this is true, you still lose overall DPS in spades when your entire team is not shooting. Just because a Medic does not have many (if any) DPS bonuses available to her does not mean that she cannot contribute.

    What classes in particular bother you?
  8. Ghost
    • Warden

    Ghost Warden

    Arms Assault primarily, with Gunslinger also a tad.

    Arms recruit mode without mods (took em out for testing) can just stand in front of ere1/ere2 and unleash with no regard and kill him solo with the rest of the team not contributing. With less difficulty than Commando (who 1. needs to charge up, 2. isn't nearly as durable)
    In nm, Arms just tears through mobs like no tomorrow. Always outkills the rifleman and commando if all try their very hardest. Oh, and stuns too with attacks. The difference in having Arms Assault and not having one in EC is vast, esp in how much time you need to kill queen and bosses in general or mob control.

    Is it his role? Yes. Is he too effective? Yes as well.

    For Gunslinger in Sec NM, while he is indeed limited to Pistol only, note that his pistol deals more damage than a SubMM would with pistol or sniper rifle. And his pistol isn't limited by splash or range like normal pistols are because of range 16 and what, 70 odd base damage + triple splash? Also, barely any reload time so no need for manual reload like CG or Barrett.
    Energy regen is also pretty extreme and can spam Fast Five easily. Hardly anyone takes Shoot to Main either because you can just FF it down more effectively at lower cost.

    At range 16, his frailty doesn't even factor. He doesn't even need to be at the frontline, in fact he's at the back with the MM with that range. His shield+hp is comparable to that of commando but his damage output feels a lot higher.

    IMO if those 2 were toned down a bit, XP share would be less of an issue because they wouldn't be hogging all the xp and having to hold back. From my balance perspective they are too good for the average SXP/SQ level they ought to be at.
  9. Kith
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    Kith NOTD Staff: Anti-Fun Wizard Skeleton

    The decision to nerf his ministuns into slows happened in June, it just never went through. I share your concerns and have for some time. Do I think his DPS needs toning down? No, because I expect his disables to be toned down and I believe that will be plenty. Of course, I still keep an open mind and am willing to drop his DPS if it's still a significant issue, but I don't believe it will be.

    Edit: And hey, we can even do stacking effects now because we've got Arcane on board and Data plays much nicer with stacking effects than Triggers do. Either way, I've wanted the ministuns to become a slow since the last forever.

    All in all, Pathfinder's consistent DPS boost hovers around the 90% mark, factoring in the situational uses of Fast Five and/or Shoot to Maim. He has a ton of energy because there's no cooldown on Fast Five and (other than Shoot to Maim) there isn't anything for him to spend his energy on. A handful of uses of Fast Five will run him dry almost instantly. Yeah, he nets a ton of kills thanks to the bounces even though they're low damage (20 damage per bounce iirc), but a class with a Shotgun will do the same thing. Yeah he has a ton of range, but without it he's practically useless against Hades because he has to outrange the spines. If we knock down the range on Hades' spines then I have absolutely zero issue in nerfing the Pathfinder's range to +2 or even +1.5 per level.

    But these are not the only problem children. Again, the way EXP is now, support classes do not get to level as quickly as the DPS classes do. There was a whole fucking to-do about the new Surv Rifle and how the PRECIOUS AND MAGICAL WEAPONS PROFICIENCY going into Combat instead of staying in Surv was going to neuter Surv so hard that it wouldn't level and be effectively useless. There was also a huge to-do about how the Field Engineer has such a hard time leveling ever since the PRECIOUS AND MAGICAL TOWERS were nerfed to not be kill generators.

    People still grumble to me about these things, and if EXP were to be shared, globally and equally, this would not be a problem. Being a DPS would be something done out of necessity rather than a thirst for glory and levels, and being a support (or even a lesser DPS) would not be viewed as a fucking burden simply because they're not leveling as fast as the heavy DPS or designated "heavy lifter" who gets put on a pedestal because certain events are made so much easier by them having certain skills.
  10. Ghost
    • Warden

    Ghost Warden

    I think giving Survival Rifle prec shot would be quite nice actually but giving weapon prof to conbat would make it crazy powerful and boost its dps even further.
    Combat Rifle right now is about the level of DPS I feel a DPS clas ought to contribute at a balanced level. Increasing it further makes the game too easy on the low scale andnot challenging on the high scale.

    I'm fine with commando because its short burst and takes quite some skill to pull off.
    I'm not really fine with Arms Assault and Gunslinger because they do a lot more for the effort you put in and generally strike me as "better than necessary/balanced"

    Going back to Hades Spines, I wouldn't necessarily agree that PF has to outrange them. Another class with a weapon lower than 16 range (and theres a lot) does fine as well. PF may be a bit more fragile, but given that you get 2x KA and 2xRA along with C6, 2XS, that isn't really much of an issue. Also, PF kills spines extremely quickly.

    To be honest, I'd be OK with Gunslinger if his max range was 11-12.
    Otherwise, I'd like to see the damage increases occur in smaller steps, say 4/9/14 rather than 6/12/18.

    For Arms, the damage nerfs we talked about ages ago and agreed on also weren't implemented, which is a contributing factor in addition to stun/slow.
    Show Spoiler


    Show Spoiler


    Also:
    http://www.notdstarcraft.com/forum/show ... hp?tid=788

    I do think these kind of tweaks will make the DPS classes less overbearing and make XP sharing less necessary without making them weak at all.

    Also, people generally don't play DPS to outwhore everyone, but because support classes can be dull if your DPS kills everything before you can even shoot it and some classes just don't get to do much if enemies aren't getting close.

    Field Engie xp was solved imo via buffs to plasma satchel (which still needs its fuse time reduced by 1 second btw, also previously agreed) which help the class level and support the team well.
  11. Kith
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    Kith NOTD Staff: Anti-Fun Wizard Skeleton

    Uh... unless I'm missing something, CRofl is underplayed (or grudgingly played) because it doesn't measure up to... well, anyone. His DPS is simply too low to be anywhere but at the bottom of the totem pole when it comes to distributing items. Arcane and I discussed it not even a few hours back, actually. Crofl needs that buff.

    Arms Assault is a "starter level" class, for one, and two, aside from shooting guns really well? The Assault is just a big blue dope. He doesn't have grenades or nukes or the ability to trade medkits for energy to stomp more face with. He's not very durable if he's focused on shooting guns and he can't run very fast, so all he has to rely on is that gun. If that fails him, he's dead.

    The Rifleman sacrifices fuck all for his DPS. Commando does things in a way that contributes to the almighty Stutter Step that rules Survival. The Engineer can just kite forever and, once he gets his Tier 3? He doesn't even need to stop moving. All the Arms Assault needs to lose is his solo capability (see: his ministuns) and suddenly he's fine.

    The Gunslinger I'm totally okay with nerfing, just make it so Gunslingers aren't screwed by Spines. Drop Spines' range to 10 and I will give you a Gunslinger with 11 or 12 range.

    I disagree, honestly. I think it's crap to shoehorn a class into using a single weapon and then make an enemy that can kill him in a handful of hits outside of his range.

    At maximum, it's a 45% DPS increase, comparable to Critical Strike, albeit limited to a single weapon AND limited to a Tier 2 that requires a Tier 3 for maximum efficiency. Granted, it also ignores armor, so it's more along the lines of 55%, but that's still not a lot compared to the infinitely sustainable stuff available to the other classes.

    You'll have to refresh my memory on that one with a link, because I don't recall anyone agreeing to that because I was too busy stating that the Harvester damage didn't need to go down, the disable did.

    Edit: See, this is what happens when you edit your posts. Nowhere in that thread did anyone actually agree that the Harvester damage nerf was necessary. Blood Frenzy got nerfed, and then the disable nerf was accepted, but no damage nerf. That isn't "agreed upon", that's "I suggested it".

    My response to it now is the same as my response to it then: It doesn't need to happen, what was actually agreed upon needs to happen. Once Ministuns are gone, THEN I will look at rebalancing the damage if necessary.

    That doesn't solve the other problems.

    I know everyone doesn't play DPS to outwhore everyone. This is not the only reason I want this change to be made.

    I know, I was just using it as an example. I'm pretty sure everyone remembers that particular party.
  12. Ghost
    • Warden

    Ghost Warden

    I think your post was based on a pre-edit version of mine.

    Combat is literally the ONLY rifle played on EU. Noone really bothers with Survival Rifle ever. If you want DPS and MM is taken, you take the Rifleman.
    Also this: http://www.notdstarcraft.com/forum/show ... 0#pid16640
    Combat Rifle is very much adequate at handling the game solo and speed it. I don't see why we need to make it even easier.

    However, in Sec, people choose Gunslinger PF over Combat Rifle because its a strictly better class.
    And like I said, shoehorning him into pistol isn't exactly detrimental or makes players not want to play him.
    Compare HMG vs Pistol on say a Stalker with infinite life and the pistol would probably kill it faster, have negligible reload and use less ammo. Range is normally the limiting factor, but Gunslinger has more range than most other weapons, i.e. moot point.

    For the Assault, my post has several quotes and a link. And the Harvester was a typo, I meant Blood Frenzy. It used to be 20/40 but is currently 25/50. Its more than that though as I outlined in the previous post.

    Go by David's thread where he compared the DPS, and the Arms Assault comes out on top of other DPS classes in ADDITION to stuns. Turning stuns into slow doesn't solve the DPS issue.
  13. Kith
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    Kith NOTD Staff: Anti-Fun Wizard Skeleton

    It is. Was. Edits happened.

    Well, considering that we're cutting out the only disable the Combat Rifle has, I don't see an issue with buffing his DPS to make him a bit more competitive with the other classes.

    Again, totally cool with cutting the range on the pistol if Hades' super spines don't have INSANE RANGE anymore.

    It used to be 40/60, before Harvester arrived, considering that Blood Frenzy was literally the Assault's only source of damage.

    It solves the Solo issue, where the Arms Assault is the only thing that is required for an entire team. There isn't an issue besides that. The Arms Assault is a DPS class that has an entire tree revolving around dealing damage.

    He doesn't have grenades to back him up while he's reloading.
    He doesn't have a nuke to handle huge swarms of enemies and then come in to clean house of the things that haven't been vaporized by the initial blast.
    He can't run very fast, and he's even slower if he uses his skills, meaning his death if his DPS cannot cut down the enemies bearing down on him.
    He attacks and that's it. That's all she wrote.

    I'm pretty okay with him having a higher DPS than the Commando and the Combat Rifleman over a sustained period of time, because he exposes himself to danger when it's time for him to shut up and fight whereas the others don't. I mean, the Rifleman does sort of with the increased damage, but he's so damn fast it hardly matters.
  14. Ghost
    • Warden

    Ghost Warden

    With combat rifle, hardly anyone on EU ever bothers with Prec Shot. Just 3-3-2-0-1 and go Survival tree. So adding weapon prof onto combat and taking out prec shot wouldn't bother anyone over here and just make it more powerful and sought after.
    In the solo replay, I never bothered with it and had no issues. Rather spam more nades or bloodlust.

    For Assault, he may be slow and doesn't have nades/nuke, but he is sustained while the other 2 aren't if they use their Crowd Control talents. As like HipHopDragon posted, movement isn't exactly that required in EC - most the time where you are shooting, the entire team is standing still and shootng as well. Rarely are you fighting stuff on the move. Given that EC is the only storyline Assault features in, he's too good for what he does being balanced around firing on the move.

    As per Assault rework thread, if we tone down Frenzy back to 20/40 (it was that before it got buffed to 40/60 and then buffed to have Harvester on top) and reduce crit chance from Concentrated Fire by 2 per level, He'd probably be fine in my book.
    To be honest, his early DPS output (and thus outlevel capacity) is so high that Harvester is really just cream on top and not that necessary. I'd thus like to reduce the early output a bit to make his Ultimate shine more brightly comparatively. This reduces early outlevelling/snowballing and makes XP share somehwat less of an issue.

    He'd still be at the top of the DPS chart David made, just not by that much. Because right now he is 2.4x as effective with DPS than combat rifle.
  15. Kith
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    Kith NOTD Staff: Anti-Fun Wizard Skeleton

    That's your prerogative. Precision Shot is pretty popular over here. If Weapons Prof turns out to make the Combat Rifleman too strong, then we'll nerf it. We can either lower the bonus or make it only apply to Manual Reloads.

    I still disagree. Having that option not be open to him is extremely significant in my book. The Assault dies with the team if things go south, and he's especially vulnerable to both Eres 1 and 2 if they decide to drop their respective spells on him.

    I'm perfectly okay with bringing Frenzy down to 20/40, but I say the crits need to stay. Suppressive is good DPS, but it's an ammo waster.

    Who can run easily and still has a source of damage when reloading. And will also be getting a significant buff to DPS with the advent of Weapons Proficiency, bringing him up much higher on David's chart.
  16. Ghost
    • Warden

    Ghost Warden

    Indeed, but as I said from the outset, Combat Rifle is where I feel a DPS class ought to be in terms of damage output with Commando allowed to be higher as it is not sustained and the class is fragile and energy hungry like mad.

    Assault is a tad slow but the most durable of the 3 with base armor of 2 and 265HP. More than compensates. Also, he's sustained DPS like the rifleman with slightly less crowd control and a lot less need for reloads. He also slows stuff he shoots unlike the Combat Rifle.

    In my opinion, Assault can be higher DPS than Combat Rifle (it is his job afterall), but I'd like him to be performing at a lower level than Commando and maybe 1.6x that of Rifle. That is with no change in DPS capability of the Rifle by more than 5% overall.

    I don't think we are contributing to balance by having him remain higher than commando or at the same level while sustained and then buffing rifle to a similar level. All that would do is necessitate all zombies having even more HP and hitting harder to compensate, while making support casters even more useless.

    So with David's chart being this:
    Assault damage: 47.8k (note this is outdated and higher than it is currently, probably closer to 44k as Frenzy isn't 60% but 50%)
    Mando damage : 36.0k
    CRifle damage : 20.8k

    I would like it to be more like this:
    Mando damage : 36.0k
    Assault damage: 35.8k
    CRifle damage : 21.7k
  17. Kith
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    Kith NOTD Staff: Anti-Fun Wizard Skeleton

    Mando's burst is insane, though. It doesn't HAVE to last. Bossfights last all of a couple seconds to a minute or so, which is plenty of time for the Mando to do that thing that he does. Mobs don't matter because Nukes.

    Assault also has a tendency to fold if he's hit too much, just like any other class. The player only gets truly tanky when they go into the higher armor rating.

    Not all of the Rifleman rework is buffs. Besides, I'm almost positive you're overestimating the DPS boost granted by the Weapons Proficiency. Yes, it's nice, but it's not a game-breaker, and if it's too much, then we'll nerf it.

    Edit: As I recall, David's chart didn't factor in the Commando's Nuke. Assume, for shits and giggles, the Commando opens with a Surged Nuke, and then starts firing. He is now on-par with the Assault, unless I've missed something.
  18. Lyanden

    Lyanden Well-Known Member

    Maybe not divided by 8 flat out
    and a definite no to the global share.

    There should be at least some exp incentive to the player that gets the kills. Not because NOTD is to be competitive but because it IS a team game.
    Uneven leveling rates enriches the game experience.

    It contributes to and determines partially, a team tactics. I'm speaking of the times when certain parties need their commando leveled up ASAP before worms to get nukes, and still manage to keep the tank up to speed

    something which also falls under the category of an artificially made challenge of sorts that also make the game at the very least more interesting. It actually further boosts the idea that the game is not a simple sit in one corner, and let those who need to shoot big guns do so with impunity.

    Kith, you had said that the life of a support class is boring, implementing this as currently proposed may just reinforce that as they will no longer, as they do now, have the need to make shot/kill count. It is, and has always been something that keeps the support classes on their toes, at least from my experience of playing tank and the support classes.

    Spoiler below is not a flexing of my e-peen. Just to emphasize that I have played the non-dps classes a lot more than the killer classes as that's the type of player I am. Contrary to what you claim, there are players who thoroughly enjoy playing the non-dps classes. They just happen to have the less aggressive personalities (perhaps why they like those classes) and hence not as vocal here.

    Show Spoiler

    (Tank which I currently have a hefty amount of CP due to leading pubs being easiest while playing tak, Field Engineer, of which I had 200 some until I started MM-ing, and Field Medic, which I played exclusively until I reached 8k. I did, and still do dislike playing as nano.

    Only recently did my addiction to marksman begin with the advent of OSOK living up to its name)



    As mentioned by Ghost, it would also make things too linear. There will come a time where people will just expect everyone to be level X by this point if SQ is this high, and level Y at another point.

    I foresee that with such, people will know and expect that we as a team will have battery, SS, shield etc at this point
    or nukes, nexus, safeguard at that point without worry
    it can even lead to complacency about it because things will get even more predictable than they are now.

    Having certain talents come before others and having the option to choose how those happen is an asset to a game that encourages a group to strategize.

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    Do not get me wrong though, I agree that exp should be distributed among the team. As it is now, it is barely a distribution and more a 100% gain to the killer and a marginal bonus to anyone nearby.

    A 50-70% to the killer and the rest distributed to the rest in addition to their current bonus or something of the sort would suffice I think.

    I can see the attractiveness of it from a developers perspective though. It would certainly make fixing some aspects of the game easier. (Mob Recon going out, a lot less need to balance killing power among classes etc)

    But that's just from a devs view.

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    Global range sharing of exp I am not at all comfortable with. If the reason is truly just to allow the mob con to be an attractive choice again, then perhaps reduce the efficiency the reaper drone has in fetching items and not in any of its other roles.

    Any of the following or a combination would do

    1. Remove the speed burst it gets when casting protect and remove sprint from it
    2. Reduce the amount of items it can carry to 1
    3. Reduce its sight range to less than its detection range.

    The surv recon was designed to improve battlefield awareness/intelligence while the mob con for the team's mobility, improving the team's speed or impeding enemy movement and giving the team an arm where the team doesn't necessarily need to be.

    The reaper drone just seems to do both right now.
  19. Ghost
    • Warden

    Ghost Warden

    For surv rec, the drone has been "nerfed" with the protect bug being fixed (thanks AP). So drone isnt quite as easy and fast to scout with anymore and runs out of energy a lot more due to reliance on perm sprint.
    The main thing though that Surv contributes and Mob does not is SS. Escape has its uses, but we have a lot of detectors. SS just makes everyone's DPS and energy a lot more convenient and fights easier due to healing.

    Mob also isn't underplayed because he is away and thus levels less. If someone knows when a good time to scout is, they wo't be missing out of much xp at all, and there's not much reason to go above level 9/10.


    Kithrixx:
    Yes and he also didn't include grenade. And the whole point is looking at actual weapon DPS. Skills are a completely different animal and the reason why I said Assault's DPS can be 1.6x that of Rifle (rather than 2.4x), because Rifle is mobile and has grenade.
    Commando is a 10k class, very fragile and extremely energy/heal dependent so its OK for him to have slightly higher weapon DPS than Assault + nuke.
    And my feeling in regards to Weapon proficiency on Rifleman is -18/-35 reload, no damage bonus. Maybe faster switch time too at the same levels as reload.
  20. Kith
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    Kith NOTD Staff: Anti-Fun Wizard Skeleton

    Not factoring in Skill DPS is entirely misleading because the Assault doesn't have any skills to speak of whereas the others do (and gain much in using them).

    Directly quoted from the Rifleman thread:

    If it makes you feel better, I have no issue making that change now rather than later.

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