Eos the Zombie Queen: Tanking vs Kiting (A Tale of Two Opinions)

Discussion in 'NOTD Discussion' started by Kith, Mar 9, 2012.

  1. Kith
    • Development Team
    • Designer

    Kith NOTD Staff: Anti-Fun Wizard Skeleton

    Simple fix: Make the RA that the Pets get bypassable by Queen's attacks. The RA on the pred wouldn't be too terribly useful in the other campaigns, so really the only issue here is the Queen.

    Edit: Hell, why not buff the queen to bypass RA period? It'd make C6 more useful vs. her, and make the fight less easy/boring. And before everyone freaks out about buffing the queen's damage, there's an ability that is capable of doing that.
  2. Ghost
    • Warden

    Ghost Warden

    RE: Questions and Suggestions.

    Frenzy doesn't buff her damage, it buffs her attack speed afaik.

    And making her bypass RA altogether would essentially force people to go Assa Tank to tank her, making Demo, Tech and Flamer Tanks not viable.
  3. Kith
    • Development Team
    • Designer

    Kith NOTD Staff: Anti-Fun Wizard Skeleton

    RE: Questions and Suggestions.

    Let's review that comment.

    Demolitions has 2 base life armor and 1 base shield armor.
    Demolitions has 5 shield armor with maxed out Spiked Armor.
    Demolitions has 9 shield armor with maxed out Spiked Armor and XS-4, along with increased shield capacity.
    Demolitions has 11 shield armor with maxed out Spiked Armor, XS-4, and a competent Medic nearby who can spam the shit out of Nanoshield. This also increases his shield capacity to vast levels.
    During Time To Die, the Demolitions gains 50 life armor. It also procs Sadist, which restores shields and life to the Demolitions when kills are made, leading to the Queen dropping eggs basically being health pickups.

    All of these factors considered together means that a Fortitude Demolitions is more than capable of tanking Queen, even moreso with a competent Medic present. All it requires is backing of while TTD is on cooldown/when shields run out.

    The Flamethrower has 3 base life armor and 5 base shield armor.
    The Flamethrower has 9 life armor with C6.
    Smite and Righteousness combined leads to fractional damage, a potent slow, and potentially infinite armor.
    The Queen's attack rate is massively staggered if Vengeance is Level 3, as almost half of her attacks will stun her for 2 seconds.
    Free healing can be achieved if the Flamethrower uses Shatter on the Queen while she is stunned.

    All the Flamer will require is to drop Smite when the Queen drops her eggs and proper item/Medic support, and potentially not even that with the Shatter health restoration.

    The Technician has 5 base life armor.
    The Technician has 11 life armor with C6.
    The Technician recovers 6 hitpoints per second with no delay due to Nanites.
    The Technician is immune to ailments when the Cockpit is closed.
    The Technician is capable of activating March of the Machine, which grants him amazing durability and damage.

    Assuming competent Medic support, the Technician can keep going through Shrieks. Even without competent Medic support, all it takes to get through this battle is getting away from the Queen when she shrieks so she can't hit you, and even then, you have a good chance of tanking the hits that she can dish out while you're stunned, which increases from "a good chance" to "an absolute guarantee" if you eat a Medkit before the stun hits you.

    Take it from someone who has 100+ CP in tank:
    It won't be that big of a deal. It'll be harder to fight her, to be sure, but it's the FINAL BOSS OF EASY COMPANY. She's simple, almost to the point of annoyance, and I want to change that. Also, this won't affect Newbie because RA doesn't drop in Newbie anyways.

    Also, I wasn't referring to Frenzy when I mentioned the ability. I am aware of what Frenzy does. Frenzy increases attack speed and reduces her armor considerably. I was referring to that there's a passive ability that is capable of bypassing Hardened Shields, I.E., the Reactive Armor damage reduction. I don't recall exactly what it is off of the top of my head, but I know that it's on the Tychus unit from Income Wars.
  4. Ghost
    • Warden

    Ghost Warden

    RE: Questions and Suggestions.

    Time to Die grants +18 life armor, not +50.
    Queen hitting the demo while TTD is not active even with nano shield spam and XS4 will die very quickly and drain the medic of energy just as quickly. If you are either not shielded or not in TTD during shriek, you are dead. Ergo without Arc for demo and medic or Battery/SS rec Demo with XS and medic will not be able to hold queen.

    Flamer who gets shrieked is pretty dead too and AFAIK C6 does not drop in EC NM, so max is 7 armor. While smite can grant bonus armor, it does not grant armor if it hits heroic and usually queen is not surrounded by creeps when you have a competent team that splash/nukes/whatever kills the creeps nearby.

    Shriek cancels MotM and results would be as above. Medic can shield Tech but 1 volley attack by queen immediately dissipates the shields so you need to get really really lucky with timing.

    Only Assault tank can tank her without medic support. Heck he doesnt even need healing. Demo can compensate partially by saving TTD for shrieks, but doing so is very much risky as you are taking the full damage while TTD is not active. Shield armor als does not reduce damage nearly as effectively as Life armor.

    Demo tanking Queen in EC newb is no big deal as her HP is so low you don't run into danger. Tanking her on EC nm 1800+SR you will need constant energy flow (SS, Battery, Restoration, ARC) to keep yourself alive even with RA. With XS even more so.
  5. Lord NiteShade
    • Wiki Founder
    • Community Leader

    Lord NiteShade NOTD Staff: Wiki Founder/TeamSpeak Admin

    RE: Questions and Suggestions.

    Or we could make kiting queen more viable.
  6. Reaper

    Reaper Moderator/The Crimsonrine

    RE: Questions and Suggestions.

    Tanking the Queen with Reactive Armor is rubbish. You do not need that.

    When a Demolitions just has XS-4 Armor and I'm Your Father Level 3 he can tank the Queen equally as effective as an Assault with Safegaurd. That 45% damage reduction to creeps is alot better than everyone thinks. Low energy consumption with that. If your shields ever do get low then you use Time To Die! also when the Queen is about to Shriek use it then.

    As for the Flamethrower and Technician - Screw them for they are not made for Easy Company for what happens in Easy Company stays in Easy Company
  7. Ramses II
    • Donator

    Ramses II Help, I can't change my title!

    RE: Questions and Suggestions.

    Level 2 righteousness lasts 5 seconds longer than shriek. If you have a flametank tanking the queen you just don't focus so much on the creep spawns as he needs them for armor. MotM tech in easy co should have at least level 1 mad spark by the queen. This means the medic has a much larger margin for error with shield timing. Never seen a team do ec nm without either sscon or fs engy, and usually with both.
  8. ArcturusV

    ArcturusV New Member

    I'd also throw out that Kith's breakdown forgot "Non-Moronic NoobCon who throws Protects on the Demo as well". A good 200 more shields and additional 2 shield armor. Only downside is Protect doesn't stop the Shriek. Why doesn't it by the way?

    Making Kiting more viable would be nice. It might actually bring back the Arms Assault, Huzzah! I just generally don't like the Protection Assault because it feels like you slog through the entire game being a subpar character just for one crowning moment of glory where you get to be completely OP. Granted such a balance isn't exactly unheard of in gaming at all. I just don't find it satisfying at all. Compare to the Modification Techician who at least gets several moments of Glory, Naz, Lasers, Apop, stuffing Hades Tentacles down his own throat. Or the Order Flamethrower who is pretty much at least decent if not a team saver through most of his storyline.

    To be entirely honest though I don't mind if the Fortitude Demolition can tank the Queen. I'd PREFER if it couldn't. Only because the FortDemo is vastly superior to the Protection Assault in every other point during Easy Company. If it can also do the same job at the one crowning moment of glory the Protection Assault has slogged through an hour of sucking to obtain... why ever have a Protection Assault? I rather see a balance where the Protection Assault can be the Boss Tank, and the FortDemo is a Mob Only Tank. But eh... that's a pipe dream.
  9. Kith
    • Development Team
    • Designer

    Kith NOTD Staff: Anti-Fun Wizard Skeleton

    Protection Assault is boring because he's the "safe option". Playing fast and loose with your tank (I.E. Demotank) leads to far more damage, but it requires more skill to pull off. I think Demotank is fine where he is, because it requires a team effort to successfully tank Eos.

    Forgot about I'm Your Father. There's that to factor in too.

    While this is true, it's a good plan to keep them from being COMPLETELY overpowered.

    Wiki needs to be updated. Still, that's a lot of armor.

    Never seen it happen. The Demotanks that I've played with are good.

    It does. Also, communication and coordination goes a long goddamn way. Telling your team to focus the Queen and let you smite shit will get you far. You're the Order Flamer, so you should have the Shotgun anyways, or at least a flamethrower, so you can take care of the mobs yourself.

    It's called either A: not being stupid enough to facetank queen while she's getting to the "Shriek point" and moving away so you have some measure of leeway or B: not facetanking the queen at all and just kiting the bitch

    And that's stupid.

    I'm Your Father.

    Yes it does, and whoever told you that is a liar and a charlatan. Shield Armor is just the same as Life Armor, it just applies to shields instead of hitpoints. It seems that shield armor doesn't reduce as much because generally the shields of a class don't exceed more than half of the class's hitpoints. A Flamethrower with XS-4 fighting Seth doesn't even get his shields broken.

    Team effort. Cooperative game. I don't see the problem.
  10. Ghost
    • Warden

    Ghost Warden

    I pretty much play only Demotank since late last year for ECNM and trust me, XS-4 simply needs too much luck and highly competent team members to pull off vs queen. So far it's been around 3-2 survival. It is certainly rare to only have XS by the end, but it happens. When TTD is not active, you can IYF on level 3 all you like and queen will tear through your shield and life armor like it is paper.
    You can try it vs broodmothers if you like.

    Look spamming is much more effective during TTD downtimes, but again energy is the problem. You really need ARC or Battery if you are going with XS especially if DPS is not great and queen takes longer to kill.
  11. Kith
    • Development Team
    • Designer

    Kith NOTD Staff: Anti-Fun Wizard Skeleton

    It doesn't need luck, it needs skill and competent team members. Dodge and critical strike are luck based.

    I've seen differing examples.
  12. ArcturusV

    ArcturusV New Member

    Well... queen does what, 90 damage with a double tap on her attacks? And loses something like 6 damage per armor point?

    Kith's example has 11 armor (13 if your NoobCon is on the ball as well). 6 times 11 for 66 damage shaved off by armor. 24 damage per strike, 42 because it's a double tap. But IYF cuts it by 45% so you're talking 22 damage from both her attacks put together. Which isn't exactly "nothing". If you are someone who can basically "Stat Heal" your shields with XS armor Micro it's possible. If your Medic is on the ball and doesn't get overly spammable with Nanoshields you're talking about 6-7 attacks before you need to be Shielded. With her attack speed that's what, about one shield every ten seconds? That doesn't sound too bad. And that's not even accounting for Time to Die taking some of the burden off.
  13. Arturia

    Arturia Well-Known Member

    Make sure to remember not everyone is a professional player, i.e. not everyone can play like a bamf. Don't make him so that he becomes extremely, extremely difficult to use in the hands of anyone but a person with a shit-ton of experience in tanking queen. He can't be used in Easy Co Public due to the lack of XS-4; making a Demolitions & Assault set-up usually required, though he is capable of temporary tanking through ttd, the only way for him is to cycle TTD & taunt w/ a C6, though against other enemies, the medic simply nano-shield replenishing allows him to ez tank.

    Queen requires 18 armor (currently) to completely negate her attacks. Every point below that lands you with an extra 10 damage. (each point reduces by 5, she attacks twice).

    If he has 11 shield armor, there is 70 damage hes taking per attack set (35 per hit, she hits twice). His shields would last 3~4 attack sets until he takes life damage, or 4.5 ~ 6 seconds. The addition of other enemies, simply means it will last less. The Medics energy will be drained at a rate of (assuming its every 4 hits i.e. 6 seconds), 3.33 per second at slowest, while at its highest, 6.66. The Medic will roughly be able to cast it 10 ~ 15 times, before being completely drained. Assuming Cp, XS-4, and Nano-Shield 2, its 230 shields, 210 w/o CP.

    Demolitions is unable of Assault-Tank Style tanking in this scenario.

    In another scenario, with taunt being constantly spammed, the queen, instead of doing 90 damage, now does 50 (49.5, but rounded to 50). This means the demolitions can very easily tank her, without a worry of her breaking his shields, as his shield armor negates 55 damage. His energy is drained at a rate of 1.5 / second for taunting, and he loses 50 to account for periods of time in which the queen shrieks.

    He, in this scenario, is now completely capable of tanking the queen.

    Demolitions cannot tank without interaction, and that is intentional, and it can work, though, my primary concern is that he should be able to be pulled off by people with moderate amounts of experience, not people who have devoted themselves to him. He works good as is, but the queen shouldn't be made to become extremely difficult to tank with him, or at the very least, she shouldn't become more difficult to tank with him.

    RA results in the demolitions capable of Assault-Style tanking vs the queen. An RA on Flamethrower, Technician or Demolitions makes them have an easier time tanking them queen, at the very least, a less stressful, since all that is required is a total of 5 armor with an RA equipped to tank the Queen. RA also provides the only way to truly become immune to an Agron's attacks, which deal 55 reduced by 2 (required 23 armor; 13 with an RA).
  14. Peerawatz
    • Development Team

    Peerawatz NOTD Staff: Sound Mixer and NOTD Troll Chieftain

    Items should help you make things easier, but it shouldn't teach you the bad habits of I r need it to do this properly, otherwise players will stick to em and never actually develop any skills.

    As a DemoTank, if you're not good at the class you shouldn't be tanking at the first place, and having an item that does the shit for you is bad, it eliminates the weakness of the class. Not everyone has skills, but you should at least be able to understand which or which not to tank.

    Doing something your class is not designed for is indeed difficult, but not enitrely impossible, that's what makes the game challenging, that's the entire reason you're playing at that class, if you;re here to just tank blindly, then you should have just selected AssaultTanker at the first place.

    Tbh, I find that RA is most useful for weak classes that can die in 2-3 hits like cmds, recons or MM etc., more than tankers who just needs their respective favored armors, seeing as the weight penalty is not much of an issue for them.
  15. Lord NiteShade
    • Wiki Founder
    • Community Leader

    Lord NiteShade NOTD Staff: Wiki Founder/TeamSpeak Admin

    Atm kiting the queen, imo, is too non-viable. It's not uncommon to go a public game without a tank, and largely it isnt an issue. Tart is easily kited, and Erebos is not his potent full incarnation. However, I am displeased that the brood mother swarm comes so quickly after the Black Ops. What purpose do they serve? There is a very small "break out" window, after which the sheer number of stalkers will make escaping to kite impossible, especially with totally green players or a lack of defensive support classes (mob recon escape, surv rifles traps, ect).

    There either needs to be a longer window between Black Ops and brood mothers, or between brood mothers and queen horde. It's one reason to get overrun if you misjudged position and the Queen pins you down, it's another to be cut down by unmanagable hordes during your one shot at escape.
  16. Kith
    • Development Team
    • Designer

    Kith NOTD Staff: Anti-Fun Wizard Skeleton

    That's also not accounting for the Arms Assault stunlocking her for 10 seconds thanks to Blood Frenzy, Suppressive Fire, and Laser Rifle. I'll be the first to admit that the demotank can't solo the Queen for shit. However, this is a team game, and with the proper support and micro, he can pull it off without a hassle.
  17. ArcanePariah
    • Development Team
    • Map Developer

    ArcanePariah Miracle Worker

    Many legitimate points here.

    Demo tank CAN tank queen without RA, did it once or twice. And it worked... as long as TTD or Taunt was up. As long as that was the case and a you have a competent medic, Demo Tank can do it with XS4. The SECOND your TTD or Taunt is non active, you are a corpse, especially if Queen is frenzied. She will tear through your shields, and then once they fall, your 2 shots away from death (your normal armor being a joke, as intended).

    Removing RA from Queen to me seems very narrow, it only serves to nerf Demo Tank and Demo Tank alone. Asstank doesn't need it, and since 2 ever drop (I think there is 3rd in chapter 3, but generally you've engaged queen and have no time to look), they will go to the tanks. Sometimes Queen does pick off people, and RA would save them, but most people die to mobs during a shriek, which RA would do nothing to help.

    Also because of its current damage cap, RA is already a niche item.

    For tanks with taunts it helps ONLY vs Agrons/Broodmother/Devourers/Slashers/Bosses/BO
    For non tanks, it will only help vs the same, minus Slashers.

    In EC, you have only 2 instances of slashers (3 if slow to kill queen), Devs are only found during random spawns chapter 2, and also again if slow to kill queen. Broods are known in advance, only bad positioning will kill you, and RA quite probably in both will NOT save you (surrounded by broods in airlock or facing them head on during queen battle). Agrons are all known in advance.

    Kiting queen is difficult at best, mostly because the spawns are literally all over the map, no one general area. Generally the BO force the mob problem, since BO can only be fought in VERY limited areas in Vet + (I've only seen like 4 holdouts spots for them, maybe 5) and every one of them is backed against a wall with no where to run.

    In the end, removing RA from affecting Queen just makes demo tanking harder, and in some cases, much harder (No RA on demo with no medic = difficult at best). No other class would be affected, and ultimately force teams to take asstanks, since unless you KNOW the person can pro demo tank, teams won't risk it. The main logic is that you MUST play it safe for Queen, for if your tank falls, your team, dictated by camping SOMEWHERE for BO, is backed against a wall, and will be mercilessly wiped out by Queen + any support she has. The stakes are simply so high (dead tank = near auto wipe), why play loose and fast (demo tank without RA), instead of playing it safe (asstank or Demo Tank with RA). If you want more skill and fun with the understanding you're risking a wipe based on one player's miscalculation, that's understandable. However most teams aim to win, because no matter how much skill you used, how fun it was, and how crazy it got, if your dead, your dead, and you losemost of the game XP/Creds/Medals.
  18. ArcturusV

    ArcturusV New Member

    And Chainsaw stun. Which isn't utilized by poor Arms Assaults sadly.

    Nite does have a point though. Between Broodmothers and the huge Stalker Rush, and the fact that lately the Black Ops Teams are less than Aggressive and will just stay out of range until Chapter 3 starts. So your options are basically this 10 second window to run out Before the Broodmothers... or being stuck wherever you are because you ain't getting out from the wall of Stalkers and having to wait until the Immortals/Hulks to make a break for it. And that is often a Bad End.

    Needs a better window to break out for kiting. And depending on the spawns you are probably going to have the Queen in your face by the time Immortals/Hulks are coming.
  19. Lord NiteShade
    • Wiki Founder
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    Lord NiteShade NOTD Staff: Wiki Founder/TeamSpeak Admin

    If you take too long to leave, brood mothers will either catch you out the door and cut everyone to ribbons, or they will catch up to you because you can only push through the swarms so fast. The other option is wait for the BMs to come, kill them from safety, then try to push out afterwards. By this point though, there are mass stalkers coming (which means coming from all angles and over walls) and mass zombies spawning all around you. Unless you are packing a lot of firepower, you will get bogged down during your escape and most/all will die. Often one (veteran) player can break ranks, ditch his allies, and slowly kite everything to death (with the help of c coy). However, I'd rather die alongside my noobs, so I fight to the end. It's painful to watch noobs who truly did their best and listened, and survived up to the end, cut down by what is literally unmanageable numbers.

    All this ends up doing is reinforcement the MUST NEED TANK TO WIN, MUST TANK EVERYTHING, MUST CAMP EVERYTHING mentality which is making the game stagnate.
  20. ArcturusV

    ArcturusV New Member

    Hmm, possible solution:

    Switch the order. Switch the Stalker Attack with the Hulks and Immortals.


    Well, it'll be easier to escape. Hulks and Immortals being relatively slower enemies can be shucked and jived by someone who is really good with their micro. And considering they don't cliffwalk or anything can also be fought back with proper application of Firepower and teamwork.

    They still are enough of a threat to help overwhelm a team and put pressure on them. Especially if they get too focused on the Queen and no one with the heavy firepower is watching their six.

    It puts the Stalkers right before Slashers and Devourers. This makes those waves just that much harder as well... it's harder to kite and dodge with Stalkers after you than Hulks and Immortals. But by that point a team should either be far enough from the Queen and Encirclement that they can deal with it easy enough, or they were probably going to be fucked by Queen Shriek and Trollspawn Slasher anyway.

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