Demolitions Talents

Discussion in 'NOTD Discussion' started by Reaper, Mar 14, 2012.

  1. Kith
    • Development Team
    • Designer

    Kith NOTD Staff: Anti-Fun Wizard Skeleton

    The AssMM has Mono to help deal with mobs, so it's not entirely single target. The Explo Demo would have a rocket for boss situations where AOE is simply undoable because of team placement, just like how the AssMM has Mono for when there are a lot more targets than he can OSOK.

    Considering the upcoming Delta rework, pretty high. An Explo Demo (who is all about AOE damage) paired with a Deltamando (who is all about mob control) can be a fantastic duo. The Deltamando will just keep things in one place, making it convenient and easy for the Explo Demo (and anyone else) to mow them down.
  2. Ghost
    • Warden

    Ghost Warden

    I feel every class should have its own role, not have a talent to fit all purposes.
    Delta for instance is mainly a passive support class similar to the Protection Assa or Surv Rec. It barely has any personal damage capacity and survives mainly on team XP.

    That said, explo demo should have skills that are all very much AoE, with varying size of AoE.
    Single target is not something that I would say fits the "explosive" background. Why blow one guy up if you can blow the 5 guys around him up too right?
  3. Kith
    • Development Team
    • Designer

    Kith NOTD Staff: Anti-Fun Wizard Skeleton

    Every damage class has several different ways to deal damage by single target and by multiple targets. This argument does not hold water.

    I would agree with you, but then we would both be wrong.
    Heightened Senses increases the Deltamando's DPS by 25%. That's a LOT.
    Razor Tripwire deals a significant amount of damage, and even more if the Deltamando has decent skill with the gravity grenade (sending units between the tripwire nodes multiple times).

    You're assuming that there's only one kind of explosive. Shaped charges such as HEAT rounds and HESH rounds are still explosives, just specifically designed to blow up a single thing as opposed to several.
  4. Reaper

    Reaper Moderator/The Crimsonrine

    Nope sorry still not in favor of single targets. Last thing we need is another class that be stealing all the Agrons same way a Marskman does in Easy Company. Add HE Ammo or even Fire Vulnerability and he will be better at it climbing in XP and then the Armageddon stealing begins. Demolitions is already good versus bosses with the only exception being the Zombie Queen or anything that has an insanely large health pool.

    Demolitions is an Area of Effect class. Same goes for the Forward Observer, why doesn't he have a Killer-Drone Missile that deals high damage to a single target or something similar?
  5. Reaper

    Reaper Moderator/The Crimsonrine

    I had a look on the internet and I found this...

    [​IMG]

    I also found this...

    [video=youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t459NbF5Vek&feature=player_detailpage[/video]
  6. ArcturusV

    ArcturusV New Member

    Gonna throw it out again. Roadblock. Makes sense for a Demolitions. Demolitions isn't just "Blows shit up", any guy with Interwebs access can figure out how to do that. It's about controlling the forces of "Blows shit up". In honor of that you have a talent like this (Which was on my Ranger class and still a good idea I think).

    Roadblock:

    Deals X damage in a 2 radius and knocks back all targets in the zone by 3. In the place of the blast destructible rubble is placed with A/B HP and Y/Z armor. This roadblock is hostile to enemy infested and they will rip it down to get at the tender meat of marines hiding behind it.

    Numbers are up to balance considerations. But controlled, targeted destruction for a purpose, very Demolitions. The ability to block off areas allows the Demolition to create some artificial choke points or close off avenues of escape. Which makes Satchels, Mines, and Armageddons more effective. Not to mention that most classes would appreciate the buffer and can utilize the time or choke point that it provides. The damage on it should be low, so it's not about Killjacking, but rather there to punish players who get in the way of the Roadblock's explosion. A small bit of damage, and probably being knocked outside the roadblock and among a horde should make it less of a newbie friendly skill necessarily. Considering how powerful being able to alter the battlefield is though I'm fine with it.

    Thus we can revise the Demo Tree to look like:

    Tier One: Combined Build/Place Mines, Satchel (With some tier appropriate changes)
    Tier Two: Fire Vulnerability, Roadblock
    Tier Three: Armageddon

    Any reasons this isn't a good idea?
  7. Reaper

    Reaper Moderator/The Crimsonrine

    I do like the idea of being able to set up a mini-fort to hold off waves of creeps. Lots of utility uses to it. Demolitions must then just ensure where they close off is the right place or at the right time
    -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    [align=center]NOTE[/align]
    What I would like of everyone to do who want to rebuild or change talents of the Explosives Demolitions please make a post of...
    1. The Tree Build
    2. And a talent you would like to get added with enough information about the talent itself.

    What I'll do is on the very first post compile for each person their own suggestion so that post #1 is a collection of suggestions as to safe time going through pages to find talent information.
    -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Suggestion
    I found the "Explosive Reactive Armor" video I discovered very interesting and can yield to a talent.

    [align=center]Explosive Armor
    [​IMG][/align]

    Designed through years of field testing, the Demolitions is outfitted with Explosive Armor which when activated reduces oncoming damage and returns damage to the nearby area in a 2 area radius to the Demolitions. Passively reduces the damage from explosives.
    Level 1 - Reduces damage by 15% and returns 15% of oncoming damage and increases armor by 1.
    Level 2 - Reduces damage by 30% and returns 30% of oncoming damage and increases armor by 2.
    Level 3 - Reduces damage by 45% and returns 45% of oncoming damage and increases armor by 3.

    Each level reduces explosive damage by 25%.
    Explosive Armor only works when the Demolitions takes life damage.
    Energy cost debatable.(Energy per second or per hit with a factor or can have a long cooldown)

    Why it works only if he takes life damage is because then shields are at 0 and he is getting hit directly on his armor and also so that it does not over-synergize with Spiked Armor. The energy cost can also prevent it being too powerful in combination with I'm Your Father! as it would result in a massive damage reduction. This comes useful in tight situations and those times when you have to run past creeps, add Fire Vulnerability along with it and you got a kill-to-kill talent.

    Not too serious about this one but this is an alternative and hopefully will spark an idea with someone. :)
  8. Ghost
    • Warden

    Ghost Warden

    Explosives:

    Tier 1-1
    Mines
    Creates 2 actions - Lay Mines and Create Mines, Create Mines always creates 6 mines. Max charge of 48, no cooldown. Blast radius of 1.5
    Level 1 - Create Mines costs 45 energy, Mines deal 35 damage
    Level 2 - Create Mines costs 35 energy, Mines deal 55 damage
    Level 3 - Create Mines costs 25 energy, Mines deal 75 damage

    Tier 1-2
    Fire Vulnerability
    AoE 5, cast range 9, 10 second duration, 7 cost, 3 cooldown
    Level 1 - Neutral and Enemy targets take 33% additional damage from Demolition's explosives
    Level 2 - Neutral and Enemy targets take 66% additional damage from all explosives
    Level 3 - Neutral and Enemy targets take 100% additional damage from all explosives and fire

    Tier 2-1
    Smart Explosives, Passive
    Level 1 - Increases Mine blast radius by 0.33, reduces friendly fire of explosives to 40%
    Level 2 - Increases Mine blast radius by 0.5, increases sticky bomb damage by 25% and reduces friendly fire of explosives to 20%

    Tier 2-2
    Sticky Bomb
    Cost 30, cast range 8, cooldown 12 seconds, grants 0.1 vision of target
    Level 1 - Sticky bomb attaches to (non ally) target and can be remote detonated for 200 damage in 1.5 radius. Reduces armor of surviving units by 1.
    Level 2 - Sticky bomb attaches to (non ally) target and can be remote detonated for 300 damage in 2.5 radius. Reduces armor of surviving units by 2.
    If target is killed before bomb is remotely detonated, damage is halved

    Tier 3
    Armageddon - as it is now, but with Reaper's changes
  9. marloelikeswaffles

    marloelikeswaffles New Member

    Move Create Mines and Place Mines into one skill (as has been suggested before) and have the new T1 be something that increases the power or reduces the energy cost/cooldown of Sap. There are other suggestions, but doing those two GREATLY extends the usefulness of exploder for the people that already play him.
  10. Reaper

    Reaper Moderator/The Crimsonrine

    So crazy me had an idea (No! Really!!?) about a possible Explosives Demolitions mechanic.

    Mechanic
    The Explosives Demolitions makes use of Explosive Material for all of his planted talents. He stocks up on the Explosive Material to be able to use talents and each talent has its own Material cost. How Material can be created can be decided upon with him either using energy to create Material or a innate which automatically creates Material and a passive talent that increases Material production or improves the energy cost for creating Material.

    This doesn't deviate too much from how the Demolitions is already with his current energy being Material but the benefit of this is it will allow Demolitions to stock up full on Material and let their energy fill up which in the end will result in a larger yield of talent usage.
  11. ArcturusV

    ArcturusV New Member

    Just a hard idea for me to wrap my head around. It seems to me though either A) Explosives Material will be so plentiful that it's not really a restriction and can mostly be ignored, or B) Will slow down the explosives Demo by that much.

    So I was trying to think what that would actually look like in general terms? Something like:

    Innate: Demo can store 15 Explosive Materials per talent point in Mines, Satchels, Fire Vulnerability, and Armageddon.

    Mines Level 1/2/3: Passively creates 1/2/3 Explosive material per 10 seconds.

    Build Explosives: (Replaces build mines), same cost, adds 3/6/9 Explosives Material.

    Thus various talents require different amounts of Explosives? Armageddon might require 10, a satchel 4, 1 for Fire Vulnerability, 2 for a Mine.

    Here is my concern with such a thing... On a pure Explosion Demo this probably won't really be a major change to how the Demo behaves, other than making the use of talents a little more complex than they need be. It does make things like Satchel Spam easier to use over the long run, but probably have a null effect on Armageddons and slows down Mines a bit. But it makes a Fort Demo crossing into Explosives, or an Exploder crossing into Fortitude just that much more effective. An exploder wouldn't really be using energy during battle, just stocking up on Materials between holdouts and such. Which means you could have an overleveled Demo throwing out TTD and Satchel Spamming at the same time, really raking in the Sadist bonuses, etc.

    Now if you require the use of energy as well as Explosive Material mechanics... it just seems as needlessly complex for the sake of being needlessly complex. Does avoid the Fort/Explosion OP mix problem. But it also means that the explosion demo has been made weaker (And most already foolishly treat it like a weaker cousin), giving it an additional limit above and beyond what it already has. Not like I'm typically flush with energy when I go Explosives myself. Between relatively high costs like Satchels, Armageddon, and Build Mines, and need to spam FV, already tight on energy. Having to manage Materials would just be an extra Screw You to the already tight energy management.
  12. Reaper

    Reaper Moderator/The Crimsonrine

    The Material I had in mind would be the only cost for Demolitions to use his Explosive Talents. Thats the cost. No energy in using a talent itself apart from FV.

    If he has 20 Material that can equal say
    20 Spider Mines (1e)
    5 Satchels (4e)
    2 Armageddons (10e)
    or a mix of the above.

    So even if he does have energy and no Material, he better get producing. If he is full energy and stocked on Material then he can be even more explosive than what he is normally.

    Plant Satchel...

    [​IMG]
  13. ArcturusV

    ArcturusV New Member

    It's not bad. Just worry about what lucky/overleveled Demos might be. Being able to Taunt, Time to Die, Look, and throw out energy free Satchels during a mob fight would be scary to see.
  14. Reaper

    Reaper Moderator/The Crimsonrine

    That is indeed a concern. I would suggest initially Satchel requires a good amount of Material to use so energy will have to go in the direction of producing Material. The Explosives Demolitions need not worry for they would be getting something that makes making Material even more effective. If a Fortitude can also get this right due to overleveling then holy crap, finish the damn game already. :p

    As a last resort I would suggest something that detects into which tree the Demolitions leveled into first for a bonus or such.

    You know what, this may be influence from what I have heard of Diablo 3 (I have to get my copy of it) but Explosives Demo makes use of Material and Fortitude Demo makes use of Rage for their talents. The one overshadows the other. If you are calmly making Material you aren't raging, if your violently murdering mobs with your bare hands you ain't creating Material. :p
  15. ArcturusV

    ArcturusV New Member

    Might unduly punish Hybrids. Not that Hybrid Demo is very popular, I don't really remember seeing it since... well... Time to Die stole powers from Chainsaw.

    Ideally I'd like to see a balance achieved where something like IYF, Spike, Sadist, and Mines, Build Mines, FV/Satchel could be a decently viable hybrid.

    I know the party line is "... but hybrids suuuuuuuck!"

    But that's not necessarily true, as I can say honestly that a Hybrid Recon is quite good. Hybrid Medic as well for that matter, Hybrid Sex Ops used to be good but I haven't really done it since the trees were fixed, and the Rifleman fix should make Hybrid Riflemen better.
  16. Arturia

    Arturia Well-Known Member

    Hybrid Marksman is still possible, but its effectiveness could be debated, since its really just a Sub MM getting Crit.

    As far as demo goes, I could see one just getting 1~2 points into IYF, then going full explosives to taunt enemies into Spider Mines.

    Forward Observer will be a viable hybrid though.
  17. Reaper

    Reaper Moderator/The Crimsonrine

    Since it is said that the Black Ops forum is going a bit slow with suggestions and feedback, I'll rear my ugly head and throw out a few more absurd ideas to liven things up.

    Right of the bat - Plant Mine and Build Mines.

    Yes this old suggestion but with a new perspective. They do get combined into 1 talent and 1 talent only.

    Plant Mine
    Level 1 - Places 1 Mine at a target location
    Level 2 - Places 2 Mines at a target location
    Level 3 - Places 3 Mines at a target location

    What this does is allow for rapid placing of a minefield when the situation calls for it. The Mines can do fixed damage across all levels and be buffed by a Demolitions passive. I would be in favor if Fire Vulnerability becomes both a passive and active which works at increasing the potential of his explosives both deploy and explosive wise. Plus reading through this thread it will also give some effectiveness when you start crossing Talent Trees.

    Satchel vs Armageddon
    I do see there is quite alot of row going on with Satchel becoming obsolete because of Armageddons world-splitting, atmosphere burning and crowd melting destructive power. So to change things I would suggest maybe taking a look at a "Magma Lines" mechanic which I suggested in the past which is the old Wall of Fire made anew which several members did like or Satchel gets replaced with something else.

    Here is the thread (Armageddon Bomb Discussion) where the suggestion lies.

    Sap
    A modified Sap for each tree would be kwel. The Explosives Sap causes the target to Burn for damage over time if the stun is broken and the Fortitude Demolitions gets a Sap that can bounce between targets stunning them and can even rebound among the same targets.

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