Demo Sap Skill

Discussion in 'Archive' started by YetiSwarm, Mar 8, 2012.

  1. YetiSwarm
    • Donator

    YetiSwarm Member

    For a while we thought Sap was just broken, but now that the tooltip has been updated we can see that any attack on the sapped target frees them from the sap.
    In effect, sap just got hit with a super nerf bat. Even were a demo to be holding fire when he used sap and tried to use this just to run away (which is just about the only conceivable use for sap anymore) the entire team, ogilvy, minis, turrets, probes, x1s, towers, charlie co, bogey beasts, devastators, hallucinations, and anything else that could deal damage would also have to be holding fire - not all of those even can hold fire. So really sap is never going to last anything more than about .2 seconds anymore.

    Is this meant to encourage demos to rambo so they can sap in peace?

    The only other thing I can see sap being used on is to free a teammate from a hugger - if that even works, but with the high energy cost and long cooldown this is an expensive way to free someone that only lasts .2 seconds.

    Why Ability why? Please don't nerf sap out of existence. If there was a balance problem (which I never saw) shorten the length to something reasonable - not .2 seconds.
  2. Kith
    • Development Team
    • Designer

    Kith NOTD Staff: Anti-Fun Wizard Skeleton

    Sap is absolutely goddamn amazing if you're not retarded about its use. It's always been designed to break stun on attack. Why? Because a seven second single target stun as an innate ability is broken as hell.

    Sap is fine. It's useful for keeping things in place for a Satchel Charge or stopping an infestor so your team can catch up to you and help with killing it. Learn to hold fire, or learn to use Sap on things that your teammates aren't focus firing.
  3. Lord NiteShade
    • Wiki Founder
    • Community Leader

    Lord NiteShade NOTD Staff: Wiki Founder/TeamSpeak Admin

    Given Infestors, Agrons, and Devourers boast severely higher threat priority that most units, Sapping targets of value is more a waste of energy. As far as I'm concerned, SAP was an enormously useful early game stun. It also worked great as a last ditch effort again bosses like a fleeing mentos, or an escaping queen.
  4. poor_newb

    poor_newb Member

    The Sap nerf is a very hard nerf (might as well remove the skill from the game), but it's fine since Demo's right tree is strong already. Demo's left tree, however, is non-existent these days and it really needs a rework.
  5. Kith
    • Development Team
    • Designer

    Kith NOTD Staff: Anti-Fun Wizard Skeleton

    It's not a nerf, it's finally being implemented as intended. Same thing happened with Mind Meld and its HP shaving abilities: People got used to it being broken and now you have to adapt to it being balanced.
  6. Emperor

    Emperor New Member

    I agree.

    Simply put, you don't stun things to not shoot at them.
  7. Lord NiteShade
    • Wiki Founder
    • Community Leader

    Lord NiteShade NOTD Staff: Wiki Founder/TeamSpeak Admin

    Yeah hes badly in need of a redo.
  8. Arturia

    Arturia Well-Known Member

    People must have never read the tool-tip from long ago. It was changed twice, from Breaks on Attack(Never worked btw) to having that removed, then back to Breaks on Attack.

    As the common scenario, if an infestor is escaping, you could Sap it, run to it, and knife it, preventing its escape, or gain distance on something that may have killed you or your teammates, such as a slasher.
  9. Kith
    • Development Team
    • Designer

    Kith NOTD Staff: Anti-Fun Wizard Skeleton

    Or an infestor about to drop eggs. Really, there are lot of uses for Sap, it's just that people got used to it being a powerful single target stun, so now it seems underpowered when in reality it's still a very powerful ability with decent tactical application.
  10. Ghost
    • Warden

    Ghost Warden

    I like using it vs banelings, huggers when other creeps are around and menoetes. But outside of those, its become pretty pointless and single ministun only.

    It was pretty OP previously though
  11. Valdes

    Valdes New Member

    Doesn't make sense for stun to break on damage -- I was glad that it was broken before, made much more sense. As stated earlier, you don't stun things to not shoot them. But with Kithrixx's defense to the change/fix, it might as well just be a 7 second root or slow.

    It's pretty bad game design when everyone in the game needs to guess when you're going to Sap to stop attacking (and catch up for instance, as suggested). Either changing it to a root/slow or reducing the stun duration are much better options.
  12. YetiSwarm
    • Donator

    YetiSwarm Member

    Updated this to a poll as it seems there is more of a divergence of opinion than I expected. Also if anyone with an effective use of the new sap could please upload a replay, that would be awesome - I would love to see this actually work in practice, not just on paper.
  13. Kith
    • Development Team
    • Designer

    Kith NOTD Staff: Anti-Fun Wizard Skeleton

    God forbid you communicate things to your teammates.
  14. Lord NiteShade
    • Wiki Founder
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    Lord NiteShade NOTD Staff: Wiki Founder/TeamSpeak Admin

    Losing Battle.

    A sap that breaks is by default going to be broken new instantaneously by, random skills, ai units, auto attack, splash damage. Its also single target, so a demo can barely hold a single enemy in place for a satchel.
  15. Klobber

    Klobber Well-Known Member

    The fact that a skill was meant to be a certain way does not make it immune to being utterly useless. The old sap mechanic was used frequently and strategically. The new mechanic no one bothers using(only situation I would ever use is on a slasher or devo cuz they have low priority and wont be attacked unless targeted and nowadays even newbies know to target quickly or get sliced up), making the skill pointless to even have, just a waste of energy.
  16. Arturia

    Arturia Well-Known Member

    Sap as a skill was somewhat out of place to me. I know its purpose was to be a strategic Stun, but its applications are still far and limited. I think it would need a rework, rather than be an 7/3 second stun. Increased incentive to not break the stun and the such.

    Its a unique mechanic in its own, being the only thing that breaks on being attacked, but I feel it should have a few different things than just a stun that breaks.

    Stuns for 7 seconds / 3 seconds on heroic, breaks if target is attacked.
    Every second the target is stunned, its attack and move speed are reduced for 10% (stacking) for 21 seconds, and it takes 15% additional damage for 5 seconds.

    Now lets look at what we have.
    First its a stun thats intentionally difficult to keep held. But if you can coordinate and actually get it to be held, then suddenly, whatever it was, now becomes much more vulnerable. Its strength was exhausted, and its severely weakened.

    Now lets say you, a lone explosives demo (idk why your ramboing) come upon a festor. You can Hold Fire, Sap it, and set mines up all around it. The stun breaks, and it takes a severe amount of damage. It burrows, but its moving very slow. You can easily keep up, and kill it quickly now.

    In short, I like how it is, but it needs to have more benefits instead of "don't shoot it and it won't harm us". It Exhausted the target.


    Thats one possible way it could be implemented. Another way is instead of being like anything there, it could be a channeled stun; it stuns a target for a decent time, disabling the demolitions for the same duration. If the demolitions preforms any action, or takes damage, the stun is broken, and the demolitions is stunned for 3 seconds. If the stun lasts its full duration, The target receives a 35% reduced attack & move speed debuff for 7 seconds, with it being reduced by 5% every second. During this time, both the Demolitions and the target of the stun receive 50% increased damage taken.

    Both of those suggestions were OP as hell, but that part is besides the point. Sap should be more then just the stun it currently is; I would rather it has some additional effects in addition to A stun that can be broken with damage, stressing the importance of team coordination even more for its optimal and effective usage.
  17. Fishi12

    Fishi12 New Member

    The only thing I don't like about the new mechanic is that it is fairly useless in public games, besides for that I think it's balanced.
    I also believe that it should have additional effect too.

    How about this, Demolitions throws a mine that clings on target stunning it and after the total duration of the stun, it explodes dealing damage in a small (or big) splash radius? If someone shoots the target, the mine would be destroyed without detonating and free the target. I think this sounds good especially with the explosives demolition:D
  18. Lord NiteShade
    • Wiki Founder
    • Community Leader

    Lord NiteShade NOTD Staff: Wiki Founder/TeamSpeak Admin

    If only enemies needed energy to lay eggs, charge, give ailments, ect. Then making it cut down a units energy could make for a worthy addition. Imagine a world we you can force infestors not to shit banelings and crap larva.
  19. Nicarco
    • Warden
    • Donator

    Nicarco Warden

    The world exists. It's known as pub :p.
  20. Arturia

    Arturia Well-Known Member

    Energy is the thing everything looks like it should have, but only the marines do have. Everything is literally Cool-down based for the gods bosses. But the implementation of it, would instantly make Sap & energy drains the most op thing possible. Persues about to go flamewave? Drain dat mana. Cronus Prepares for Destruction? Not with this manaburn. Seth Plasma det? Try again with more energy.

    But just for trolliness, if you drain Nazara's Energy, it crashes down and becomes a permanently land-based unit.

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