Demeter Boss Fight

Discussion in 'Archive' started by Ability, May 13, 2012.

  1. Ability
    • Development Team
    • NOTD Creator

    Ability NOTD Creator

    Any ideas on how to make Demeter boss fight more dynamic?

    At the moment, mostly teams activate Charlie and run to Fort. Demeter often dies before doing anything material.
  2. ArcturusV

    ArcturusV New Member

    Barring the Charlie/Demeter option point I suggested Earlier... Basically giving the marines the option to kill Charlie in order to change the fight and what follows it, off the top of my head I can think of:

    Scorpion Mode:

    Demeter Special. Cool down, 15 seconds. Demeter launches three Hugger Tentacles with a range of 10. These tentacles will latch onto a random Marine (Not I didn't say Player, includes Sheng's Boys), and pull them to Demeter's location. Can bypass Elevation with this ability.

    Possible effect?

    Well, this hoses Elevation camping in particular. Say if you are camping on the usual location, bottom spur of the Fort, and you get pulled down to the ground floor (Particularly if it's outside the fort as sometimes happens with Pathing Blocking), you are seriously, seriously in a hurt locker. You're alone, without any real backup, pinned between Demeter and Agron Packs. If your team isn't in some place where Pathing and Elevation makes it a 2 mile hike from where you were grabbed to where you were pulled, it won't be as much of a hose at all. It can result in getting Sheng's Boys chewed up pretty badly as any pulled down are likely burnt toast, particularly in the 2 mile hike back to the marines scenario. It will also make Demeter's Cocoons a bit more deadly as you won't have 17 guns right next to you to blast them out of existence should you get bit.

    The other, and perhaps less douchey, move that won't have people pissing and moaning if implemented (Well, not as much?)

    Come at me:

    Demeter himself doesn't actually come to the players. He just remains where he is. Charlie continues to summon hordes of Agrons and Huggers like before. But also so does every Infestor (Likely 3-5 at that point) who is still on the map. In order to turn this into an opportunity where teams might Shared XP power level off the unlimited Ammo Sheng's Boys you can add two effects to the fight.

    1) Time is an Infestor's Tool.

    Every so many seconds (Say 30), Demeter himself drops something near his area which will make fighting him at least a little bit more tricky. For example, spawning an additional Hades Tentacle in whatever location he is patrolling. If you are going to insist on camping and farming you will end up with some boss that has hundreds of tentacles guarding him making clearing him out a very slow, annoying process (Or something that will soak up a lot of Artillery shells, for example). Or maybe he dumps out nydus worms which spread creep and pops out Hulks, Infested Marines, and/or Stalkers?

    2) "Why does everything I love die a horrible disease ridden death?"

    Charlie will continue to home in on the player marines during this fight. Not only will this result in Agrons spawning dangerously close to marines. But the open seeping kidney wound she has is a festering cesspool of alien diseases and biological compounds that are NOT friendly to human flesh. Biological non-infested which are within a certain range of him (6?) take damage over time. Charlie is an important specimen and Koller won't let you kill him so it's either a slow death by toxins and disease or go out and kick Demeter's ass.
  3. Blaqk
    • Development Team
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    Blaqk NOTD Staff: Bugs, Pugs, and Scruggs

    Get rid of cocoons so kiting Demeter is an option.
  4. Ability
    • Development Team
    • NOTD Creator

    Ability NOTD Creator

    [video=youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NFgLqMl5RUI[/video]

    Was watching this.
  5. ArcturusV

    ArcturusV New Member

    Part of why I consider what happened with Deimos a step in the right direction. It took the fight away from just Tank and Spank or Lolkite as the case may be for various bosses.

    It also suggests something beyond the common zombies. And I think that's important. Common ZOmbies you can just Tank, Camp, or Kite. They come after you more or less mindlessly and you can grind them up. Bosses for the most part though have a similar behavior. They just home in on Marines and come at them more or less mindlessly. Some have shallow gimmicks. Some have some special attacks which can alter the basic tactics. But as far as the fight itself goes, there's little difference between how say, a team tends to fight Eos and how a team tends to fight the Post Erebos Waves. It's very similar in style and feeling. Yes, you have a huge target coming in, and there is some Shriek Stun. But it's small changes that don't really alter the feeling and expectation of the game.

    It would be like if in a Mario Game you could kill Bowser by just jumping on his head twice, and all he did was walk in a straight line across the ground at you until he hit a wall, then he just turns around and keeps walking. Instead he's bouncing, moving back and forth, spittin' fire at you, chucking Hammers in an arc, and is pretty much immune to anything you can throw at him so you have to deal with him in a method that's different than any other enemy (Get the axe behind him).
  6. Ability
    • Development Team
    • NOTD Creator

    Ability NOTD Creator

    - Demeter no longer spawns Demeters' Cocoons, Huggers and additional Agrons around it (apart from initial wave). Ambient spawns (that can include Agrons) still persist.
    - Demeter has 2 abilities: Eye Stare and Mind Grasp. Eye Stare will stun units visible to Demeter while Mind Grasp will stun units not visible to Demeter. Both abilities cycle so one comes after another in an anticipated chain.
    - Demeter takes no damage until engaged in actual combat with Player Marines. This is to minimize FO Artillery kiting cheese.
    - Demeter tentacle attack range reduced from 12 to 6.
    - Demeter base movespeed reduced from 1.8 to 1.7
    - Demeter base HP increased from 9000 to 10,000. Base armor reduced from 5 to 2.
    - Demeter base sight range reduced from 12 to 10.

    Going to drive more tactics so that people won't just camp in fort. Will test after the next few days.
  7. ArcturusV

    ArcturusV New Member

    Hmm... I'm concerned with Stare/Grasp. Only in so far as it is more or less random after the first shot. I mean yeah. If Stare starts out first you can evade it by high ground. But after that it's more or less out of your control is my fear. While there are plenty of ways to make sure you're within line of sight, not a lot of ways to make sure you're NOT. Particularly with Ambient Spawns still being around, shared vision, and Alpha Company having some of the heaviest and most persistent. Even if it was limited to personal vision, his sight range is larger than the Flamethrower's, equal to most marines. I also see it screwing over Sheng's Boys a lot as they won't have the finesse to even attempt to manage it.
  8. Ability
    • Development Team
    • NOTD Creator

    Ability NOTD Creator

    Fight in places like this?

    You're right. Still need to figure out something for the mini-Marines.

    - Ambient mobs in Demeter boss fight reduced.
  9. ArcturusV

    ArcturusV New Member

    Though it seems to be trading one problem for another. I mean yeah, they won't necessarily be fighting in the Fort all the time, just finding the one vision blocking place that's good like that and camping there every time. Well, heavy DPS times might still in order to attempt to just power through Demeter before he trolls them. Based in part on me guessing that Stare/Grasp won't start until contact with Demeter. Gods I hope not. Grasp would be hellish and have so many troll GG moments if it started right away and you got Grasped before the first Agrons were dead.

    Also hoping that the interval between Stare and Grasp is of sufficient time that it doesn't dominate every moment of the fight. So you end up with Stare, (Stun for... 5 seconds?), then 15 more seconds of nothing, then Grasp, (5 seconds of Stun), 15 seconds after the stun would end, then Stare again.

    As Opposed to Stare (5 seconds where you'd be stunned), instant Grasp (5 seconds where you'd be stunned), Stare again immediately.
  10. Ability
    • Development Team
    • NOTD Creator

    Ability NOTD Creator

    Sheng's team is going to investigate a distress signal at the Central Square Tower while this boss fight plays out. The ambient spawns have been cut quite materially.

    - Sheng's team will not be present in Demeter boss fight
    - Demeter's Frozen Gaze stun duration reduced from 9 to 6 seconds.
  11. Ability
    • Development Team
    • NOTD Creator

    Ability NOTD Creator

    For the DPS plow through, am thinking of putting a cap to max damage done to Demeter per phase - maybe 33% HP. So it still needs to go through 3 stares at minimum. What do you think?

    That way, more people need to put in effort in staying active vs. a few DPSers running the show.
  12. ArcturusV

    ArcturusV New Member

    Rather than possibly giving him Invulnerability (Too many Invulnerability Protocols already for my tastes) until he does the next Stare/Grasp, just have it so that if you DO inflict that much damage on him between activations it immediately triggers the next activation.

    Which has the ability to be more Trollsome, I realize. As someone who's unlucky and got stunned during a Grasp might then get stunned again by a Stare before he recovers and really be feeling some pain. But if you shaved off 33% in 5 seconds then Demeter is getting chumped so hard anyway that you deserve a bit of trolling.
  13. Ability
    • Development Team
    • NOTD Creator

    Ability NOTD Creator

    Played games in SEA/NA and teams face rolled updated Demeter due to lack of ambient mobs during boss fight. Mechanics are working okay - it's just dying too fast. Will up its HP in next patch.

    Updated Cronus is okay - a bit more team movement.
  14. Waves_Blade

    Waves_Blade New Member

    Could possibly add in special mobs for the Dementer boss fight.

    Maybe call them The Demented or something like that?

    I wouldn't really know what they would do tho, just a thought.
  15. Zuriel

    Zuriel Well-Known Member

    Demeter fight is currently flawed and confusing.

    Many players still camp and await demeter, and stare/grope + ambient mobs just destroys team-mates too easily. Being stunned while a single zombie destroys your team isn't fun to watch.

    Can we have a global slow instead of stun? Kiting is about movement, stuns will encourage camping IMO.
  16. Ryan III

    Ryan III Well-Known Member

    I think both stuns should have a radius equal to the queen's stun without changing the mechanics
  17. Blaqk
    • Development Team
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    Blaqk NOTD Staff: Bugs, Pugs, and Scruggs

    This is also why we need to have some changes listed on the loading screen.
  18. Emperor

    Emperor New Member

    Why not just make Charlie spawn random-ish, and the old version of Demeter spawn right beside him when he's found. And instead of stuns he can snare everyone within sight. Everyone can shoot and cast, they just can't move for the duration. Still has cocoons and upped health if he's dying too fast. Only random spawns during the fight, and the same waves after that you're forced to kite one way or another until you find a place to bunker down?
  19. HamCient

    HamCient New Member

    In the light of the current post regarding boss fights that encourage camping and tanking which eventually causes displeasure in both the players (who think Demeter is powerful with those stuns and glares) and on the design team side (who thinks that Demeter is quickly KO'ed outta the game), here's some suggestions I have that might try to find a common ground somewhere in-between the players and the game designers.

    The main problem as we know is simply camping (probably fort / parking garage) and before Demeter cliff walks up the wall to reach the player, huge arty / airstrike / OSOK / nuke barrages would be thrown in Demeter's face in hope of bringing it down before it ever reaches the team.

    Demeter have the skill to harden it's shell before it enters actual battle to reduce long range pre-combat assaults and this have worked pretty well to some extend.

    A team that have been squeezed in a tight corner like a fort / garage wall or some holdout position would lack is space and what you can introduce is splash damages or multiple close-in damage that would force people who holdout to run or kite. This will begin the process of kiting for sure. Demeter's sting swiping with some splash would be a neat idea.

    Demeter's stare is obviously infamous and an overkill. Reducing the stare probably to somewhat bigger radius than it's sting's attack radius would be more forgiving and encourage people to kite around Demeter at a distance without being stun. The reason to stun at a distance only abit longer than the sting's attack is to allow fortunate people to kite out of the sting's radius but still be stun for a while.

    Demeter could also randomly activate the hardened shell (regardless of situation) or sequentially activate the harden shell (e.g. when stun is laid down, Demeter becomes softer or harder to hit ... etc ...). This would discourage people from all day long OSOK-ing / nuking / arty-ing / airstriking from a distance sitting at a long range.

    Cocoons are not necessary with these new changes as the above mechanics are more likely to force a holdout into a kite battle where people need to avoid Demeter at a radius from her stuns. Tanks can still sit there and tank Demeter but the stuns and swiping stings would simply make prolonged tanking a nasty situation to handle.

    In summary, the recommended changes follows:
    - Remove those glares and stuns from Demeter and replace it with a stun that is effective at a certain radius (somewhere just abit bigger than the sting's melee radius) to force squishy units to flee for certain. Tanks can still do short tanking runs but need to flee from the hard hitting splashing melee.

    - Splash-based melee attacks. Possibly swiping sting(s) to engage a few targets in a forward arc or something (based on knife idea).

    - Possible periodic or circumstantial activation of it's hardened shell.

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