Delta Commando Discussion

Discussion in 'Archive' started by Lord NiteShade, Mar 6, 2012.

  1. ArcturusV

    ArcturusV New Member

    RE: Official Subtlety Commando Rework Thread

    Ideally as a "Gravity Grenade", I'd like to see it so that it pulls you in a direct line towards the target spot. And if there is something in the way (Rock Pillar, debris, Fence, Gate, Wall, etc) it would just pull you right up against it and pin you there. But I suppose that might be something that the coding doesn't really support and instead it'll just pull you towards that point along terrain you can walk to. So in Ghost's Example it would pull you down the ramp and around the corner towards the Grenade. (Which has an odd feeling, a Gravity Grenade pulling you AWAY from it's impact point) And I suppose it would behave like I would want if it's not possible to get there. For example throwing the grenade behind an Apollo Gate Entrance before you can open them.

    Not that I'm a coder by any stretch of the imagination. So I'm not sure how it would actually play out. Just my guesses based on a little bit of dabbling with such things. Just saying what I'd like to see. Which is what I think Ghost is getting at too.
  2. Kith
    • Development Team
    • Designer

    Kith NOTD Staff: Anti-Fun Wizard Skeleton

    RE: Official Subtlety Commando Rework Thread

    Oh. No, it's just the mothership's gravity pull (but not the vortex). What I meant was that enemies would just be dragged to whatever is closest to that point, but won't traverse terrain levels unless they were already on a ramp.

    Arc got it right. Sorry, I haven't slept in a couple days. If you've played Star Strikers against a Probe or Hero Attack against a Predator, you'll know what I'm talking about.
  3. Nicarco
    • Warden
    • Donator

    Nicarco Warden

    RE: Official Subtlety Commando Rework Thread

    I would just like to say right now that though I support my idea more than Kith's and that I think this sort of situational support focus is what the game needs more than a disable based class, I think I can accept it if Kith's idea gets implemented instead of mine because it comes from a person with much more experience than me.

    I would still hope that my idea gets implemented into the game (if not now, then some time in the future perhaps) but really, not bad for a first time tree change attempt.


    I was wondering Kith, is it possible to make the gravity grenade pull things off ramps one way? Like it can pull things down cliffs but not up them (perhaps taking damage as well?) It would make using grenades during hold offs more dangerous close to the team, and also allows you more utility against those very annoying infested marines/huggers on ledges. Just a suggestion.
  4. Kith
    • Development Team
    • Designer

    Kith NOTD Staff: Anti-Fun Wizard Skeleton

    RE: Official Subtlety Commando Rework Thread

    Nicaro, while I believe that your design is good as a NOTD class, I don't think it's a good Commando class. You've designed it well and it has synergy and cohesion, which is good. The issue, I've come to realize, lies in the fact that it's for the Commando, the last class unlock there is to be had. The Commando/Psi Ops are both supposed to be extremely powerful, but with the potential to TK or otherwise hinder their allies. If the tree was to be put in as a third alternative tree for, say, the Rifleman? Then I'd be interested. However, as the class that's supposed to be one of the most difficult to play due to its power, I just can't really see it being on the Commando. It's too... safe, I suppose, and for that matter, I don't believe that it fits his personality.

    I think what we need to do is re-explore the idea of putting in a third skill tree for classes that unlocks when players hit 20k.
  5. ArcturusV

    ArcturusV New Member

    RE: Official Subtlety Commando Rework Thread

    Kinda regret I missed the boat on this one and didn't put in my Grizzled Veteran Commando. Ah well. Least this bit about third trees has my mind firing for my little concept workshop.
  6. Nicarco
    • Warden
    • Donator

    Nicarco Warden

    RE: Official Subtlety Commando Rework Thread

    I wouldn't suggest it as an alternative for the rifleman, although if the third tree is only for 20k and above (which I still need to get to) I would hope that all the players at that level have enough skill to play the alternative tree with the same skill needed to play commando, so I suppose it will be fine.

    I don't think that commando/psi ops actually has that many tk worthy skills, and the only ones that they do have are on the other tree (telepathy/operations). In fact, I would argue that the most tking trees are actually on the demo/fo/ce left tree, with the majority, if not all of them dealing friendly fire (notable exceptions are fv, shockwave shells and the passives on fo, and I would hope some passives on the ce). What I get from psi ops right tree is that it is supposed to be a difficult to control team support tree, and I still think that my alternative still gives just that, a hard to control but team beneficial tree.

    If it doesn't get chosen (the votes are really close right now) I would hope that it would at least be added on as a possible third tree for the commando/psi ops instead of an actual safe class like the rifleman. Maybe none of the skills do obvious team hindrance (with the exception of improvised explosives) but in the wrong hands the skills can lose all of their utility, basically making the commando a useless team member, or even worse, doom the team by either a: Killing them with an exploding flare charge (which will kill them in 15 seconds roughly) or severely disabling them with a disable charge (Especially if used during boss fights) or b: Making them almost completely immobile. The only difference between these team hindrance and delta commando's team hindrance is that the other team members can actually avoid the situation if they are smart enough, and I really do think that is as necessary as the possibility for team hindrance is for the commando. It's a support class, people shouldn't be forced into being careful because the way that it supports the team is by making all of these dangerous contraptions.
  7. Ghost
    • Warden

    Ghost Warden

    RE: Official Subtlety Commando Rework Thread

    Kith, I had some thoughts about your Heightened Senses, let me know what you think:

    Your HS rework turns it into a range 24 Thermal Sight for everyone as the duration is longer than the cooldown and reveals cloaked units, hence making Thermal Sight obsolete in EC at least, where the only cloaked units are Wraiths from B dome (for which noone would get Thermals), Black Ops and Blindlings from Queen eggs.
    For the latter 2, any Ops Mando would have at least 2 or 3 points in your revised HS skill, making it extremely powerful.

    My proposal would be to amend it slightly. Something along the lines of a cross between your HS and my Suppress/Mark Target.
    Details:
    VICTOR TARGET (Active, 12 energy cost, 6 second cooldown)
    The Commando uses his battlefield experience to locate his foes and mark them for his allies, increasing the damage they take by 25% and revealing cloaked enemies for 10 seconds.
    Level 1 – Affects units within target 3 AoE, increases threat priority by 1
    Level 2 – Affects units within target 5 AoE, increases threat priority by 2
    Level 3 – Affects units within target 7 AoE, increases threat priority by 4

    What this does is make it less OP than a perma thermal for all by being target area only and makes auto attacks (we all know how hard it is to manually click a speed 4.5 Black Ops in NM) directly target anything within the designated area. Also very useful for making the team actually attack the Queen rather than basic zombies somewhere else within range and I would imagine also for Slashers, Parasite Troll Nydi, Broodmothers and the like.
    In terms of mechanics, only while the unit is within that designated area, they will have this effect, so once they exit it, it stops. This gives it also great utility with Gravity Grenade which forces enemies to remain in that target sector.

    Of course the decision lies with you entirely!
  8. ProbeGst

    ProbeGst Well-Known Member

    RE: Official Subtlety Commando Rework Thread

    passive +active?
    9 range detection and active 24 range damage increase?
  9. Kith
    • Development Team
    • Designer

    Kith NOTD Staff: Anti-Fun Wizard Skeleton

    RE: Official Subtlety Commando Rework Thread

    I see your point in a sense, but the only way that they're going to be decloaked is if the Commando uses the skill, so I don't really have an issue with it. Yes, it's spammable, but the Deltamando is going to run out of energy really damn fast if he's constantly trying to HS on top of using Gravity Grenade and Razor Wire. Conservation, and all that. I personally believe it's better than some of the Perception reworks that were "Give x sight radius and y detection radius to all players passively" because of its active (as opposed to passive) nature. I prefer the decloak effect because A: It makes sense from a lore standpoint (and in my opinion a balance standpoint) and B: I just really hate cloaked enemies.

    Keep in mind it's not revealing them through the fog of war. It works just like EMP Decloak does: the unit's cloak is broken and it cannot cloak again while under the effects of the ability. Also keep in mind that Heightened Senses is a pulse rather than an aura, so if the Deltamando drops Heightened Senses and cloaked enemies start showing up, he's going to have to cast it again to reveal them.

    Also, your points about Opsmando doing cross-class shenanigans don't really apply, considering that he can already do cross-class shenanigans. :p
  10. Ryan III

    Ryan III Well-Known Member

    RE: Official Subtlety Commando Rework Thread

    Is the deltamando a team support class or a debuff class or something else?.
  11. Nicarco
    • Warden
    • Donator

    Nicarco Warden

    RE: Official Subtlety Commando Rework Thread

    It's apparently supposed to be a debuff class, which by extension means a team support class.
  12. Ghost
    • Warden

    Ghost Warden

    RE: Official Subtlety Commando Rework Thread

    Yes he can already cross class but he cannot reveal all cloaked enemies to allies currently in the targetable sense, which this would allow.

    At 10 energy it is extremely cheap given it is 24 range, so you only need to cast it 3-4 times max over a 2 minute period for black ops. No gravity or other stuff needed at that time. Unless it did not affect targets in the FoW at all, it is simply too powerful for a T1 in my opinion which is why I offered an alternative :)
  13. Lord NiteShade
    • Wiki Founder
    • Community Leader

    Lord NiteShade NOTD Staff: Wiki Founder/TeamSpeak Admin

    RE: Official Subtlety Commando Rework Thread

    [​IMG]
  14. Nicarco
    • Warden
    • Donator

    Nicarco Warden

    RE: Official Subtlety Commando Rework Thread

    I'm pretty sure kith objects to that idea, but I am willing to accept that if it means my tree gets included.
  15. Kith
    • Development Team
    • Designer

    Kith NOTD Staff: Anti-Fun Wizard Skeleton

    RE: Official Subtlety Commando Rework Thread

    I would be fine with that, actually. I'm just saying that we really need to re-examine the "third talent tree" concept.
    EDIT: Just an update on this comment, despite how great it would be, it's not going to happen. I've found that we simply lack the room to do so. Whichever way we go, I think it'd be a pertinent idea to use whatever tree that we don't as one of the trees for either new classes or bonus classes.

    It's a solid debuff tree, which makes it a team support tree in a roundabout sense because keeping the enemy locked down is definitely supportive of the team, but it requires more skill than solid buffs because you have to be very well aware of how you're going to use the debuff skills so your allies don't get caught in them and also so you debuff the correct enemies (an example of this being gravnading a slasher as opposed to a ghoul mob).
  16. Ability
    • Development Team
    • NOTD Creator

    Ability NOTD Creator

    RE: Official Subtlety Commando Rework Thread

    We've decided to select Kithrixx's Delta as the replacement tree for Subtlety. The change will be made within the next 30 days hopefully.
  17. zander

    zander Member

    RE: Official Subtlety Commando Rework Thread

    nice^^^
  18. Lord NiteShade
    • Wiki Founder
    • Community Leader

    Lord NiteShade NOTD Staff: Wiki Founder/TeamSpeak Admin

    RE: Official Subtlety Commando Rework Thread

    Fair enough, no longer need this as a a sticky. The thread remains for normal discussion.
  19. ProbeGst

    ProbeGst Well-Known Member

    RE: Official Subtlety Commando Rework Thread

    troll class here i come!!!
    so going to use it(after release) in recruit to troll newbs :p
  20. Kith
    • Development Team
    • Designer

    Kith NOTD Staff: Anti-Fun Wizard Skeleton

    RE: Official Subtlety Commando Rework Thread

    Don't be a clown. If it turns out you do start screwing with people using Delta's traps, they're going to start making you lose even more karma and rating when someone dies due to your negligence.

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