Critical Changes (A Suggestion Thread)

Discussion in 'NOTD Discussion' started by Twineye, Oct 30, 2012.

  1. Twineye

    Twineye New Member

    In order to get the most exposure to this thread as possible (because naturaly I want something I work hard on creating to succeed) and to allow for adequet room for discussion without culltering up the original thread, I have posted this as its own individual thread in addition to posting it into the already existing stickied suggestion thread.

    [align=center]Let me start off by asking a question. I'd like to know if you fine fellows who brought us SC2NOTD are the same equally fine fellows who brought us WC3 TFT NOTD Aftermath. If so then there is no reason to read any further, just know that I belive/know that if you were to take some (and by some I mean a lot) of the game mechanics imployed in NOTD Aftermath and transfer them over to SC2NOTD the game and its community would benefit greatly. If you are not the same creators then I have some suggestions for you.[/align]

    In No Particular Order

    1. Randomization: From what I am told and what I have experianced there is very little change in the quest lines from game to game reguardless of difficulty. I believe that adding a few quest line possibilities (such as having a random chance of getting one of lets say three diffrent quest lines, like haveing to destroy viral nodes instead of rescuing civilians one game or somthing) and having a randomization of 3 diffrent bosses you could possibly face at boss fight stages. Then taking it another step further and add even more bosses and more difficult quest lines depending on which difficulty your currently playing. Depending on the bosses you faced and quests you completed a diffrent ending would play. If implemented this change could add massive replay value to the game. It will also give the older players somthing to do and intrigue newer players with the complex story lines and instill in them more motiviation to come back and play again.

    2. Prone Stance: This will be a toggled action that would go in the marine actions menu (the one with the ping allied players position button). When toggled on the players unit will lay flat on the ground, giving them increased weapon range, incrased critical hit chance, and a very slight evasion chance agaisnt ranged units at the cost of reducing there movement speed to almost nothing. (perhaps some classes can move faster while prone then others? Or mabye some of them aquire greater benifits for going prone?) Scale the difficulty/number of enemies accordingly. This would be a nice addition to the game becuase it would give a more realisitic tone to the game, because if your a soldier and your camping a position your going to be prone.

    3. Jumping: This will be a short ranged ability with a cooldown that would also go into the marine actions option menu. This will allow a players unit to jump from a higher elevation to a lower elevation. Depending on the fall distance players can go from having no ill effects at short distances, to suffering bone fractures at longer distances, to suffering a stun status as well as a dazed debuff on top of a bone fracture at even longer distnaces, to suffering a bleeding debuff on top of the previously mentioned ailments or death at extreme disntaces. (again some classes may be better at jumping then others, such as the agile recons) If implemented this change would bring greater options when pathing and I would go so far as to even say it would bring a new dimension to gameplay, challanging players to find new and creative ways to avoid mobs, not to mention the realism it would bring.

    4. NVG: Night vision goggles would be a toggled action in the same menu as the previous suggestions. As a whole I suggest dampening the lighting of the entire game, after all you are on the dark side of the moon in a city with no power... your not getting much light. Doing this will make it nessesary to have night vision goggles which would tint the entire screen in green resulting in a clearer definition of objects and map features as well as a small vision radius bonus. This would again be to add a bit more realism to the game.

    5. Umbrellas: These would be ranged human-soldier type enemys with abilities akin to the player classes, so you would have umbrella designated marksmens who could use the skill monoshot. I realize that a version of these already exist in the form of black ops, but those seem like piddly watered down versions of what they could be. These enemies would only appear during certain questlines and/or only certain difficulties. They would move in detatchments not unlike the currrent player groupings. This would add some much needed challange to the game, allowing players a taste of the terror of having to fight against there own abilities, and encourage team members to stick together and make smart decisions so you dont have every other high ranking person off doing there own thing which in all reality wouldn't happen in a real military squad.

    6. Larger Map: the map should be expanded to be able to embrace these new changes, especially the randomization change, the more quest lines the more room you will need.

    I have since moved on at the suggestion of one of you fine chaps to UA3 in my search for challange.
    This does not mean the game wouldn't beneifit from these changes, it just means I will no longer be here to take up it's defense.
    Do what you will and good luck.

    Tl;Dr? Game needs more spice.
  2. Ramses II
    • Donator

    Ramses II Help, I can't change my title!

    These are all great suggestions. However, the map is currently towards the end of the polishing phase and it's very unlikely that any new content will be added. I could see some of these coming into effect in NOTD2 SC2 though (once HotS comes out).
  3. Twineye

    Twineye New Member

    Ethier way is fine with me. What is the ETA on HoTS btw?
  4. Ramses II
    • Donator

    Ramses II Help, I can't change my title!

    Well, the beta has been out for a while. There's no actual release date, but I would say it's possible that it comes out in November and should be early 2013 at the latest. They may go for something around Christmas, too.
  5. Devilish

    Devilish New Member

    You have to ask Ability or Kithrixx for the map modifications like u have presented but like Ramses said, it will not be implemented before the release of HOTS expansion. Otherwise nice suggestion! (btw i rmb u said u have like 100 xp)
  6. JAW

    JAW Well-Known Member

    Most of what you said boils down to "make it more like UA3". I know that this is based off a much older map, but UA3 is the current incarnation of what you are talking about. I would like to point out that the prone stance and jump abilities are needless clutter. Night vision goggles is basically saying "I want realism over the ability to see", and I would rather have the current visual system than two, broken systems (one dark and one green filter). Randomized missions, on top of the 3 (4 if you count surv) story lines, with apollo having two different endings as it is? We have side missions that pop up, and I see nothing wrong with knowing what you're in for when you select a story line when we have multiple to choose from. Not to mention that side missions will probably be overhauled in NOTD2.

    All of these ideas seem to me like they scream "screw innovation, we want comfortable realism", and that's just not the kind of game this is. There's a reason I play NOTD over UA3, or NotDSo, and that reason is that they are boring after a handful of games. Fun > Realism. End. Of. Story.

    Btw: Jumping down terrain to escape zombies is just another way to say "I don't know how to kite and I got stuck on this hill". Just don't kite yourself into a dead end and it's a non-issue.
  7. Twineye

    Twineye New Member

    I'll have to check out UA3 then.
    This is your opinion and I understand that, I by no means went into this thinking it would be accepted by everyone. But while most of your arguements have good points I'll have to disagree on a few of them.

    What your saying about the story lines being fine just the way they are, unchanging, cut and dry, same routes same bosses same tacts to win every time, and then going on to say that after a handful of games things like UA3 that apperntly have randomized stories that change from game to game (overall increase the replay value) are boring seems to contridict itself. Four diffrent story lines + some small side quests isn't alot of game content. Where as if you have multiple randomized game occurances per game, the ammount of gameplay you would require to experiance the full game increases exponentialy. If the randomization implimentation were to be put in effect, it would be hard at first to get down the correct way to play the game. But after some playthroughs (this is how we get people to keep playing) things will get easier as you learn how to do each mission. I could not disagree more with you on this matter.

    First off what you call "needless clutter" I call adding realism and a bit more involvment in the game. Moving from position to position to position and letting your auto attacks take care of the rest, while easier, isn't nearly as engaging or in my opinion, fun.

    You act like realism cant be tied into fun. While I belive that tieing in a certain ammount of realism adds to the overall fun of the game. Granted there is a limit to how real a game can be before it just becomes frustrating which is why I didn's suggest a bathroom bar that when full you have to head to the nearest bush and squeeze one out before continueing to play.

    These new mechanics would indeed be innovation, just because they add realism does not mean they can't be innovative.

    A Game + Some Realism = Fun = A Good Game

    On the jump subject, it isn't a matter of wheather your competent enough to kite, but rather having the ability to kite in diffrent and more creative ways. This was not meant to fix the problem of poor kiting but rather to add a fun new mechanic to the game.

    The NVG mode may have been a bit to far, however I stand by what I said about reducing the lighting of the game overall. Having more dim lighting would make things like roud flares and the such that much more essential as well as contribute to the overall feel and look of the game, which at this point in time feels cartoonishly bright to me.

    I'm assuming that UA3 Is alot like what I have suggested. Just because another game has certain features doesn't mean you can't or even shouldn't use them as well. If every game didn't use some mechanics because some other game already has them then we would only have one FPS one MMORPG and likely wouldnt even be playing starcraft right now, since the basic concept of this game is based off of the much earlier game red alert.
  8. ArcanePariah
    • Development Team
    • Map Developer

    ArcanePariah Miracle Worker

    Twineye, I thank you for your sugguestions and they are indeed for the most part good ones, however most are unfeasible at the current time

    1) We do have 3 (4 with Survival) stories to choose from. So compared to AM/UA3, each individual game does play fairly the same, however, you can choose which you way to play beforehand. Also, one reason this is difficult to implement is that not to long ago, this map ran out of space for scripts/triggers, so we could not add any more events/effects until we removed some. From my understanding, this limit will be raised in HotS, so we will have to wait till then.

    2) Prone stance would effectively be taking various items (occulars) and class specialties (Marksman has better range, only certain class can crit, some classes already move slowly), and rolling them into an innate. As you also stated, you would have to rebalance all enemies against and for this, not a small task.

    3) The way NOTD is laid out, jumping is abusive. We already tried it on accident with Pathfinder and it was exploited to hell and back. To make the game non exploitive to jumping would require redoing the entire terrain into either a flat plain with very little high ground (UA3/AM style from what I've seen) or into a maze of corridors with no room to kite. Both are unappealing and do not fit this game.

    4) We had NVG and it was removed, it was useless. The only way to have NVG be useful would be to implement a dynamic day/night cycle. However that runs counter to the game lore and creates plot holes more or less. Also currently each story is at a different time of day, Survival is very dark, basically night time, Apollo Sec is darkish, morning, Alpha is lighter (late morning) and EC is bright/easy to see (middle of the day ish).

    5) We tossed this idea around for survival. The primary issue is that many many of the player skills would insanely OP in the hands of an AI. Dodge nukes? Loss control to a taunt? Get sniped by SMM whose cloaked with 3 levels of Scope? We simply have no counters to most of that, half the time a tank taunting would kill the team, the other half the time a cloaked MobCon/SMM would snipe us to death. And god forbid the AI fires nukes and we run away... into a demo minefield we didn't see around the corner... There's challenge and there's flat unfair/fake difficulty.

    6) Could be done, however we would have to A) Add said terrain, then add features to it B) Add the events and C) Rebalance player movespeed around it. As is, even with move speed bonuses and a solid team that's on the ball, we can make speed with only 5, maybe 10 minutes to spare. Also, we already have the problem of speed bonus being high enough that doing any number (even all) side missions is not the risk or the XP.

    We could see some of this in NotD 2, but like Ramses said, most likely have to wait for HotS for tech upgrades to the SC2 engine and mapmaking. Also their is the limitation of Ability and Co being limited in manpower, so time is not exactly in huge supply currently.
  9. Twineye

    Twineye New Member

    I currently have 600 xp but as i have talked extensivly with people in the NOTD channel about many of my suggestions and to learn more about the game and see if they would fit in you should find that I am well enough informed about the game to give my suggestions credit.
  10. ArcanePariah
    • Development Team
    • Map Developer

    ArcanePariah Miracle Worker

    Although you do have a point that you can not plan as much ahead, randomized mission pool still means people will know precisely how to handle each given mission, since the pool the missions are drawn from will be of course finite. Right now there is a "correct" way to play all 4 campaigns in NotD because we have, as you said, kept playing and sorted out the best way to do it. There are a number of ways to do EC NM, though one is the most reliable. Apollo does have more limited setups, as is Alpha, but people still experiment. We still do throw weird team compositions around for fun and people roll classes they rarely play.
  11. Twineye

    Twineye New Member

    Just a few notes

    2. You could simply make the effects of prone stack with the existing effects of some classes, make it so that the crit bonus only works on classes with existing critical chances (though I still think the ranged evasion bonus should apply to all classes). I think you misunderstand of the scope of this suggestions, these would be very small bonuses, bordering on insigificant, only rewarding enough to coerce you to do it when camping or the such, but not significant enough to where you'd completly fail at the game if you didnt do it at all. Obviously your not going to be crawling around the map, so having a slower moving class in prone would not make a big (or even a small) diffrence. If you inted to move you would simply stand up and go.

    3. I am saddend to hear this, but I fully understand.

    4. Glad to know that it gets darker after easy company.

    5. Blanceing would have to be done. Only give the AI units some of the less devistating abilities or only give each class of AI soldier one of the abilities of its counterpart Player classes. So Roflman Umbs. would have the stim pack ability or the grenade ability, recon umb's would be able to cloak allies breifly and make them sprint. Just enough power to make them scary but not enough to make them imposisble, The character classes (becuase there the heros) would of course have the advantage in every way.

    6. Simply adjust the speed bonus timer accordingly, a bigger map would require more time, is it so terrible to be in the game longer?

    I am again saddened to hear that your work foce isn't what you would like it to be and I hope more people jump on board once HoTS is released.
    [hr]
    This was by no means a slam on the game in its current state, it was simply a rebutle to a rather rude and sweeping statement made by one JAW.
    The randomization of quests and bosses would simply add an exponential ammount of gameplay for a relativly low ammount of changes that would have to be made. For example. instead of fighting tar as the first boss in easy company, you would have the chance of some boss that bursts up from the ground in a nydus worm fashion that you have to dispatch of.
  12. Arturia

    Arturia Well-Known Member

    Or you could just fight Eil and deal with an overlord that spawns eggs with random enemies inside and floats around, and maybe heals up to max HP if you don't kill it fast enough.

    Because you say you only have 600 exp, its likely you haven't had full exposure to things, as the standard Public Game (Usually recruit difficulty), doesn't have many factors going into play.

    You are, in general, proposing a huge overhaul to the current state of NOTD NA, and as it has been mentioned, make it like "Undead Assault 3" (another story-based zombie survival game, which happens to have everything you mentioned, except NVG doesn't appear to give any bonus boosts). Having to jack up your gamma just to see isn't something I enjoy doing on a game to game basis based on a single event happening, and the same applies for lowering graphics to see.

    I don't have much to say except, sometimes its nice to have distinctively different games to play.

    NOTDSO, NOTD NA, and UA3 are all different styles and varieties of the zombie survival genre. Each plays out differently.

    NOTDSO has you nearly incapable of out-running zombies, requiring you to kill and avoid them, by abusing certain characteristics of enemies. No Revives. No ally auto-attacking but full skill friendly fire.

    NOTD NA is overall about being smart about where you move around the terrain and avoiding area's you cannot escape from, though tanking is possible even, but becomes more difficult as the difficulty increases. No revives. Reduced Friendly Fire from skills, allied auto-attacking enabled.

    UA3 is about using the terrain to your advantage through jumping and running smartly, and avoiding tanking, as it is extremely difficult to be able to tank for any duration as most bosses tend to 1 ~ 3 shot you, and most enemies, 2 ~ 6 shot you. Revives optional. Full Friendly Fire from skills, allied auto-attacking enabled.

    While the idea's aren't bad, they would change the overall feel of NOTD NA, and in that sense, blur the difference between UA3 and NOTD NA. NOTDSO has remained static and as it is for a long period of time, and it won't be changing any time soon.
  13. Twineye

    Twineye New Member


    I've been made to understand that the Eil and one or two others were lone examples of randomization within NOTDNA. Feel free to correct me if I am wrong.

    Concering the lighting, it would obviously not be so dark that you can't see anything, just dark enough to set the mood and make it more realistic. Turning up the gamma in these terms would simply ruin the game experiance and border on cheating.

    You and JAW seem to be dead set against any sort of borrowing of ideas from games that arnt NOTDNA, to the point which you would sacrifice the enjoyment garnered from the game to avoid being to much like one or the other simply becuase "it has been going on for a long time". This in my honest opinion is foolish. If it would improve gameplay and enjoyment, there should be no reason not to do it.
  14. Froblock

    Froblock Well-Known Member

    Lets say you have a go at all story modes in NM before we implement any of your suggestions. With further understanding you can re-evaluate your suggestions having seen all the variety NOTD has to offer.

    I do not doubt ur suggestions, but some of them would suggest a complete overhaul of the game as it is and that is probably not the way Ability wants the map to be like anyhow, but no harm in suggestions. Our community is always open to things that would make game-play better.
    But until HOTS comes out as AP has said, only minor bugs will be fixed, no major changes will be made.
  15. Kith
    • Development Team
    • Designer

    Kith NOTD Staff: Anti-Fun Wizard Skeleton

    Hello there! I am Kithrixx and this isn't even my final form. Let's talk about videogames and address some of your concerns.

    Yep! Ability is Azazel_, the very same of NOTD: Aftermath.

    Randomization
    This would involve completely overhauling what is very nearly a complete game, and unfortunately, we do not have the time nor the will to do this. When Ability designed the current iteration of NOTD, he sought to do something different with the formula rather than do the same sort of thing over again. The idea was to create a game in the series where the chapters were selectable rather than randomized. Even though this was a welcome change for some (I myself know of several people who complained endlessly when the team did well enough to get Magnificent Bastards in :AM), it was a change in the formula that was not appreciated by all. I was once also of the party saying that random missions should be top priority, but the bottom line is that this is no longer possible with the stage of development that the game is in. Now, we seek to polish what we have and build the basis of NOTD II by finalizing the classes and tying up loose ends.

    Prone Stance
    Aftermath never had Prone. I don't like Prone all that much, really. Way too easy to be silly with. That said, there are no prone animations for the standard SCII Marine, or, uh... any of the classes, really. Closest thing to that is the Medic's death animation where she falls on her face.

    Jumping
    A lot of the balance in NOTD is factored around mobility and being able to get from place to place without jumping. Jumping would involve completely re-evaluating the terrain structure of the entire map, and that's an overhaul we can't do. For NOTD II, though, yes. I will be designing around the ability to jump.

    NVG
    Actually, no reason as to why these aren't in other than time constraints. Honestly? I'd love to see -tl make a return and the X>Q button be re-purposed for NVGs.

    Umbrellas
    We've got Black Ops!
    ...
    Which are actually not all that common. They only show up in Easy Company's finale (as enemies, anyways). Enemy soldiers also make an appearance in Survival mode.

    Larger Map
    That... would take entirely too much effort, my friend. Trust me though, NOTD II will feature a much larger scale everything.

    More Spice
    Unfortunately, most of the "spice" lives in the darker corners of NOTD (see: the other campaigns). While it's fortunate that these can be accessed in a relatively short amount of time with a couple games' worth of effort, the issue lies in the fact that they're not immediately available and therefore are not able to be explored by newer players like yourself.


    [align=center]The long and short of it:
    NOTD (of SCII) is not NOTD:AM because Ability sought to do something different with it. NOTD II will be more akin to the older NOTDs. I can understand your frustration with it not turning out like you had hoped, but there's much to NOTD that you haven't experienced and I encourage you to continue playing and see the later campaigns and what they have to offer. While it's not the same as the older games, it still has its own merits.

    [​IMG][/align]
  16. spartanhija

    spartanhija Member

    I already suggested the 1st one (randomization) many moons ago.
    I do agree those are great suggestions, and if they ever make NOTDv2 maybe they can implement them there.
  17. Kith
    • Development Team
    • Designer

    Kith NOTD Staff: Anti-Fun Wizard Skeleton

    Dogg, my brother and I suggested random missions when NOTD was first being made. Bottom line is that Ability didn't want to make that kinda game, so... it didn't happen. However, with NOTD II, we'll be taking that direction a bit more. At least, we will if I'm on the design team.
  18. Twineye

    Twineye New Member

    Ive already adressed this, and I am well aware of what AP said.
    Please read the thread before you post.
  19. JAW

    JAW Well-Known Member

    I don't mind making the game darker to set the mood, as long as you aren't blinded.
    In my experience with games featuring NVG, the game world is set so dark, that not using NVG is impossible, and using it gives an annoying as hell green filter on everything. Night/day cycles are the only reason to use NVG in my opinion.

    I'm not against using features from other games, I'm against using features of other games that don't fit the type of game that's being made. I like being able to build my own stuff in Minecraft, but that doesn't mean we should copy paste it into NOTD.

    I didn't stick words in your mouth, please don't stick any in mine.
  20. Pyromaniac

    Pyromaniac Well-Known Member

    I woulda loved NVG for apotosis before it was brightened

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