Comparing SubMM with a HMG and other HMG users

Discussion in 'NOTD Discussion' started by Thermidor, May 9, 2012.

  1. Thermidor

    Thermidor Well-Known Member

    Alright, I know there is a HMG priority thread in NOTD discussion but that seems more to do with opsmando vs survrofl for the HMG. Also, in my opinion, that thread has gone a bit off-topic since it was made because now it has fallen to the topic of what Opsmando users roll with in their games. If a mod feels it's necessary to merge the threads then so be it.

    So anyway, a discussion arose on the XM814 Heavy Machine Gun page on the wiki because someone thought of the idea a SubMM with a HMG. I decided to create the thread because Pyromaniac thinks it should be moved to the forums (probs to get more opinions and views).

    Discuss, what are your thoughts?

    Sorry for the incredibly long post. I know 1 or 2 people are going to reply to this thread with "TL;DR"
  2. Kith
    • Development Team
    • Designer

    Kith NOTD Staff: Anti-Fun Wizard Skeleton

    I have a feelling that somewhere in there, he forgot to factor in crit rates.
  3. Blaqk
    • Development Team
    • Webmaster/Ops

    Blaqk NOTD Staff: Operations and Web

    That is the worst application of math I have ever seen. Pyromaniac touched on it but he's really just talking out his ass with numbers. You can poke your calculator all you want about how "over time" this class is better with this weapon, but in practical application in NOTD those numbers mean jack shit.

    I've decided to reword that in a nicer way.

    Your math is applied incorrectly.

    The truth is, the SMM really has no business with the HMG unless there is no Arms Assault, either tree Rifleman, Operations Commando, or Combat Engineer. The odds of all five of those players being absent in any game is slim to none.
  4. Pyromaniac

    Pyromaniac Well-Known Member

    I wanted it here because it was cluttering the HMG page like mad
  5. Froblock

    Froblock Well-Known Member

    NiteShadeX Wrote:
    SubMarksman should stick to slow weapons if he has any idea what he's doing. Ideally you want a shotgun/flamer/pistol for moving around, and a Barr/Stinger for bosses. Concentration is FAR more valuable than shooting fast. Far too many marksmen just waste all their concentration spamming quick aim with fast guns. At that point you aren't dealing bonus damage, and you would be more effective if you'd gotten 3 crits and spammed quick aim.
  6. ArcanePariah
    • Development Team
    • Map Developer

    ArcanePariah Miracle Worker

    Usually someone else is better off using the HMG, or the Marksman has a better weapon (Barret/Stinger/MM rifle/SMG). But it really depends on the situation.

    Because Seth no longer drops Stinger much, HMG SHOULD go to the SMM in apollo because he will be the one running around killing stuff and scouting most of the game. Blaqk mentions the he (SMM) should not have it unless 5 certain classes were not present. The chance of that happening in EC or Alpha is indeed almost non existent, however in apollo, that is almost par for the course (3 classes mentioned are absent all together, and riflemans are infrequent participants).

    The HMG DOES work decent on SMM because of its low rate of fire (benefits more from QA) and higher base damage then most weapons (benefits more from concentration/mastersub). Spamming QA with fast guns does use up the concentration quickly, but every weapon except stinger will use up concentration anyhow, and under QA, its all going to disappear quickly. The only reason Concentration works best with most slow firing weapons is not that they are slow firing, its because for the most part, those slow firing weapons have higher base damage and thus benefit more from the SMM percentage based damage buffs. Realistically against most bosses, unused concentration is wasted damage, rather the SMM dump it all instantly to get the drop on the boss, then save it.
  7. ArcturusV

    ArcturusV New Member

    Course Nite has one of the better points in that. The SubMM's greatest source of damage is in fact Concentration. 50% for Subtlety Mastery, 60% for Concentration. Quick Aim is 300%, sure. It's also "empty DPS" as I call it. Pure Attack speed is best when dealing with lower levels of difficulty where say, 2 rounds from an HMG will wipe out an entire chunk of Zombies/Ghouls out of a wave, vs. harder modes where you require 5 rounds to do the same thing (35 HP Zombies in Recruit, vs 100 HP Zombies in Nightmare Mode for the normal rank and fodder). This is also why the Pistol Whipping PF just annihilates Newbie Mode, and is fairly ineffective (Shoot to Maim soon becomes the MVP of his Talent tree, and then only for Bosses and such) in Apollo Security Team Nightmare Games.

    Having slower firing heavy weapons not only makes it easier for the SubMM to keep his DPS numbers up. But they also tend to be the weapons with the highest attack damage numbers, making them benefit even more from his talents, and when he does Quick Aim, intelligently instead of just spamming every time he has 30 energy up until he hits T3, much more effective because you'll actually have stacks built up.

    And this is because... the Subtlety MM isn't "DPS". Least not how I think of it. Neither tree of the Marksman is. This probably relates to my old Strategy Game/RPG experience. DPS roles were sources that had consistent, long term, above average damage dealing capabilities. Designed to put pressure on the enemy and grind them down over the long haul. The Marksman (And a few others), fit the Assassin role. High, short term damage that drops off quickly, and cannot be used constantly. Meant for picking out a high value target that has put itself in a vulnerable position, eliminating it, then coming back intact to do it later. The SubMM's skills all relate to such behavior. The HMG's stats all support long term grinding of hordes/enemies. The weapon just doesn't match up to the role of the character. It would be like giving your Rogue in DnD a battleaxe because "Well it does 1d12 damage instead of the crappy 1d6 a dagger does!". On that very limited level of understanding, sure, makes sense. Then you look and say "... well... if my Rogue has a dagger he can end up dealing like 7d6 damage with an attack long as I bother to set up a strike. Even if that takes a single turn to do, it's a lot more than 2d12."
  8. Blaqk
    • Development Team
    • Webmaster/Ops

    Blaqk NOTD Staff: Operations and Web

    Sec Team is full of strange situations. I'd wager more DPS comes from talents in Sec Team than from guns themselves. Aside from that, as a general rule I stand by my post.
  9. Lulz

    Lulz Well-Known Member

    Sure that sub mm can easily drop a good thousand damage in a quick 2 seconds(if not a little more, didnt do much math just headnumbers real quick), if he saves his concentration up. But then hes fighting at half strenth the rest of the battle, not to mention long times of doing no damage at all, with an m45 tho, doing that thousand damage in just 10 shots ( not factoring in armor, weapon mods, ammo mods, crits) and thats only gonna take him what 3 seconds longer, and can maintain another thousand damage in just another few seconds. Not to mention chances are if a sub mm is using an hmg, his concentration points likely are not saved up, and will deplete that dps much much quicker. but hell if im sub mm and nobody is there to take the hmg, ill take it.

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