Community Watch Discussion and Rebuttal Thread

Discussion in 'Archive' started by YetiSwarm, Feb 7, 2012.

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  1. Ghost
    • Warden

    Ghost Warden

    Have you read through the old forum about any of the accused at all?
    I realize it seems to be down, but when its back up, that might be worth doing
  2. MSluiter

    MSluiter Member

    In response to
    [NA] Bacana 1-S2-1-2524675

    This is not sufficient evidence to permanently ban someone. I’ve played with him several times. He may be a retard, but there is a difference between that and hacking. There is a reason people ladder 2k games and can’t get out of silver league. You wouldn’t say they hacked wins just because they suck.

    He brags about alot of shit like he is good and stuff and has been playing forever. That also does not mean he hacks. To me, his stats (medals, wins, mods, credits) look fairly legit.

    I can count on one hand how many time I’ve played with most of the vets mentioned. Just cuz you don’t see people doesn’t mean they don’t play.

    He should NOT be banned based on this. Compelling Evidence is lacking.
  3. Pyromaniac

    Pyromaniac Well-Known Member

    I too would like more evidence that isn't based around chat/skill. I'm not saying Bacana is innocent, but if we were to use a trial system (jury of his peers), I feel that he would be acquitted if this was the only information avaliable.

    I understand that this is simply not how "legal" internet activities are handeled, but I would simply like to point out that there is not enough to convince me that Bacana deserves any punishment until more proof is avaliable.


    I do understand that I sound/am ignorant of some of the implications of the evidence already placed towards this case, but I firmly believe that should this case go through as is, no more evidence used, and Bacana is banned, that it would lead to more and more lax investigations which I can only fearfully imagine where it could lead.
  4. Lyanden

    Lyanden Well-Known Member

    I'm with Osaze and Kith on this one.
    The first time I saw bacana, he was already upwards 10k exp.
    And that's saying something considering all I played in those days were pubs (desperate months of recruitment to return NotD's population to 'acceptable levels').

    This was also the time NA merged with LA.
    Meeting the guy for the 1st time, I asked if he was from LA to which he promptly replied with a "no".

    Unless this guy has accounts in the other server, there was no way none of the older players (in those days the regulars) wouldn't have met him at least once.

    If you're innocent, there should be no reason to doubt you.
    Having multiple instances of being considered "fishy" however, well.
    Where there's smoke, there's usually fire.

    I'm actually suspecting that he continuously modifies his bank
    till now because another thing to consider is that bacana now has 80k
    (almost 90k) exp when I last played with him (a day ago?).

    I know of no one who plays NotD regularly these days
    who comes even close to that rate of exp gain without a
    regular crew who consistently wins high end/high reward games.

    At the very least, the people he plays with should have
    that fast an EXP gain as well.

    Edit:

    Highest rates right now should be Lulz, Pyro and David in no particular order from what I've seen.
    Though I think Pyro has slowed a bit these days.

    =========================================================================================

    [align=center]Lyanden's review of what have already been posted about Bacana[/align]

    [​IMG]

    WARNING: HISTORY LESSON IN BOUND

    Yet no one really knows him as a "player from the first version".
    And back then, the population was less than what we have now (like 40 people AT MOST) and I'm not talking forums or channel.
    I'm including pub regulars in this number.

    There was
    Hunterlz,
    Flintlckwood,
    Diode,
    Niteshade,
    Osaze,
    Kith,
    Blaqk,
    Ninelkay and co,
    Omegaman,
    Ketchup,
    Marrymoocows,
    Michael (the older one),
    WingCraft,
    Hongbearr,
    ChanlionROAR,
    Belial,
    poornewb,
    zach,
    toelust,
    sagev and the rest of that generation.

    GAME ENDED WITH EREBOS.

    Average exp won per game? MUCH less than 50.

    [​IMG]

    It was only when Apollo and Alpha (ended at laboratory with the doc summoning Erebos again at one point and then Ivax. Cerb was an odd ball of a Layote)

    [​IMG]

    MEMES BY NITESHADE AND SHOOZ

    started getting finished that NOTD's population went to 3 channels full every day
    for the whole day and

    (AFTER 3 bank file changes and a name change to specify region and then another map change due to a popularity system bug).

    That was roughly 200 people on channel and more as pub regulars. And likely the only time the oldies would end up not knowing people. This was around the time players like
    Marloe, computer, deficio, QuantumMech, HDD and their batch popped up.

    [​IMG]

    Aside from wins, note credits vs superior service

    [​IMG]



    hamsandwich: No, no... something's not right.

    Truer words were never spoken. Epic moment? Epic moment.

    [​IMG]

    Also note that players from "THE OLD DAYS" will have either
    very very low -w (wins) compared to their CAR due to
    old victories not being recorded due to the non-existence of -w

    OR

    in the rare case of Osaze EXTREMELY HIGH (over 9000) wins vs CAR medal

    due to a bug with winning a solo game giving you a bugged amount of ec victories on your record.


    Please check the math on his wins vs Medals.

    Almost add up nicely. TOO nicely (for an "old player").
    If he did not gain that exp from the old days because he couldn't have been there,
    then where did he suddenly pop out from with that high of a record?

    There is also average exp per game to consider.
    Since games in the old days gave MUCH LESS than 50 exp per game,
    and he claims to have played 12 games a day,
    he shoulud not be able to pull his average exp up as high as he has because he would have had an average exp in the high 10s.
    Low 20s if he was consistent with victories.
    40s average exp is impossible without offsetting his old record with many NM wins (or Alpha/Apollo games).
    None of which he has.


    My bad. He has 1 Apollo win in this.:rolleyes:



    EDITED FOR CLARIFICATION OF WHY IT ADDS UP TOO NICELY FOR GHOST:
    EC
    444 - 305 = 139
    305 EC SPEED
    139 EC Non SPEED

    Apollo
    1 - 1 = 0
    1 Apollo speed
    0 Apollo Non-Speed

    444 EC + 1 Apollo = 445 Wins

    9 CAR = 9 x 5 = 450
    With 2 Ticks = +10 at least

    460 Wins based on CAR
  5. Ghost
    • Warden

    Ghost Warden

    Well Lyanden, we have a bunch of pub players on EU who while in the channel, unloess you pub regularly you won't meet much, and they have between 50-90k xp now.
    One guy whos been around for a long time has 90k, almost exclusively pub and stats are similar enough to Bacana.
    His avg xp is also close to that (a bit higher actually), but from what I heard, Bacana plays very nooby while our guy plays quite well actually.

    Anyway, I hope you are reading Bacana's -w properly.
    At the time your screen was taken, that would have been 446 total wins (remember speed = easy due to recently fixed bug)
  6. spartanhija

    spartanhija Member

    Holy shit im famous!!
    [hr]
    One thing, on this pic it says im about 5k xp, im 25 now. So if he earned 20k he was doingmostly pubs(70k). Mostly ec recruit pubs. If he played something like surv he should have over 70k xp.
  7. Lyanden

    Lyanden Well-Known Member

    Actually this screen was taken a long time ago. See spartanhija having 4k exp. He is now 20k.

    Also, Bacana's exp here is 50k but his average exp is already on mid 40s. This person you know took him getting to 90k ish before getting to this level of average exp or so you say. That person you also mention to have almost exclusively pub stats. How almost exclusively though? Remember that Bacana literally only has 1 other game type won here. A single apollo speed. If said EU pubstar took 90k exp + wins from other higher exp yielding story lines, you can imagine why I'm questioning the accused's average exp. And if that isn't "right" (remember that it's dependent on games played + current exp), then one of those is fake. Or maybe both.
  8. Ghost
    • Warden

    Ghost Warden

    Actually that's a normal apollo AND an apollo speed.

    Like I said, you will need to read the -w properly. And get a -w from say today to compare.

    spartan in his own words can't play regularly due to his work, Bacana might be spamming pubs. If spartan gained 20k xp, Bacana could have done the same if not more easily in the same time span
  9. spartanhija

    spartanhija Member

    Exactly ^ . He may not have wins, but it doesnt mean he didnt die in surv and stay till end for cred / xp. Also i have 50 avg xp and im not that great player. But thats just cuz the princess carries me everygame.
  10. Lyanden

    Lyanden Well-Known Member

    Assuming I believe this, care to explain his creds + average exp then?

    You have 50 average exp Sparta because games these days give 70 upwards (pub games). Imagine more than half of your games coming from a time when EC company victories gave you around 20 exp per game. Then add your success rate of 50 average exp per game to that. You'd end up with somewhere near 35 or so average exp per game. In order to pull that up, you would need a proportionately large amount of high exp gain games.

    Now if we consider Ghost's saying 444 ec + 305 speed runs from a time after -w was implemented (Pub non speed = 70ish + Pub speed 80 ish), what would that put Bacana's exp at? That's more than 700 games played and won. 300 or so unaccounted for. Can someone do the math on this?
  11. spartanhija

    spartanhija Member

    Id have to see his current stats, xp creds . As for wins most good players have a decent number of wins but if he does he loses the win but can keep gettig xp and creds. If anyone has his current xp, total earned creds and wins (which the wins arent exact, for w/e reason some1 i saw has 10k nm wins) i migt be able to calculate it out. I would also need number of games played. If you know it pm me it not in the thread plz.
    [hr]
    In reality i dont think 50 average xp is bad. If you only ever played 1 ec pub (and survive) your average xp would be around 50-60 cuz thats the only xp per 1 game u played. Ppl with less than 50 avg boggle my peanut brain.
    [hr]
    *in reality i dont think 50 average xp is Hard*
    Dont know why i said bad.
    [hr]
    Did u read this one ?^
  12. Lyanden

    Lyanden Well-Known Member

    Yes I did. That would mean his average exp per game should drop even lower though inorder to not reach wave 20 and stay to get the credits. That would give him 1 game played, and less than 30 exp gained for that game. Anyone who plays survival a lot (and does not get to wave 20 let alone win to even get the medal) will have their average exp per game suffer a lot.

    Also, read my previous post again. I wasnt finished with it and added a few other stuff

    1123 games played, 444 EC Company wins (x65-70 exp), 305 Speed wins (x75 - 80 exp), 1 Apollo win, 1 Speed Apollo win.

    That's 751 won games. 372 games unaccounted for. That's actually a very high win ratio.

    Especially since among those 372 games there would be wins as well if he played any games before -w was implemented.

    Playing since first version would make an unknown quantity of those having a maximum of 30 exp gained per win.
    Add average exp lost from playing a lot of survival games (should be less than 372) without getting to wave 20 in order to gain 19483 - Rest of Credit gain.
  13. spartanhija

    spartanhija Member

    Doesnt have to die before wave 20, he could die to the beta and still lose the win. Also, like i stated before solo does not count towards wins. He solos quite a bit. Ill check out your refined thread. Im not saying your wrong lyd im just saying it doesnt seem too crazy to be at his xp. I have total earned 10k creds at my xp so his creds seem a bit low.
  14. Lyanden

    Lyanden Well-Known Member

    Consider that he has only 3 ticks on superior service medal

    And that credit gain was not always in existence.
    Read again sparta: ALL games you have played give a reward of HIGH EXP and CREDITS.

    Bacana claims to have come from a time when Credits did not exist and Exp per game was less than half of what you gain.

    Basically, you played EC COMPANY the complete edition. He played (or so he claims) 12 games per day for almost every day during the beta and now followed by the complete edition as well.
  15. spartanhija

    spartanhija Member

    If u get to the beta alive u should have around 150 xp or someshit which is like 3 games of 50 avg xp
    [hr]
    Solo surv
    [hr]
    Also, ive played surv with him and he likes to jump to death
    [hr]
    Kinda early deaths too
    [hr]
    But definitley i think he should have more medals actually
  16. Lyanden

    Lyanden Well-Known Member

    Let's assume all 3 medal ticks he had, he got to the guardian. Because that is the maximum amount of times he would have reached the guardian of the beta.

    150 x 3 = 450. With a total games played of 1123 and 50309exp, that would barely move your average exp. And that's IF he reached the guardian 3 times.


    Solo surv would mean if he dies, game ends there. There is no "staying until credits is gained by allies" if you solo because you are alone.

    Also, his credits would have been forfeited because soloing will not give you creds.

    If you're saying however, that he plays solo survival a lot in order not to gain credits (because you will not gain any by soloing) but to earn exp by attempting to reach the guardian of the beta. I am at a loss for words.
  17. Ghost
    • Warden

    Ghost Warden

    -.- I guess have to explain how w works.
    For the purposes of your screenshot, he has 139 EC normal wins and 305 ec speed wins, 1 apollo normal win and 1 apollo speed win.
    It is counter intuitive but that's how it worked at the time the screen was taken.

    Now, even I who started quite a long time back now and have close to 160k manage to have 60 avg xp per game. Newer people have nearly 82 per game. Therefore him being from old times and having 50k xp at the time of the screenshot very much makes sense. I had close to that number around the 50k mark as well.

    EC wins (considering civs done) in the very old days were low xp due to early ending. Then you had the speedrun era where they gave 100 or 120 xp per pop. Then it got lowered to the current 85-90xp.

    Note that -w only counts actual games won, but not those where you died beforehand, quit or whatever. For many poor players those make up a substantial amount of their games and XP.

    Also, prior to was it October last year -w didn't track properly, so any games till then would count 0 towards wins, but count fully vs CAR.

    Pubs these days actually give a lot of xp. Since the fix its still some 100 or so credits if most people leave, but there was a time i got 300+ per game.

    Also consider that he could have played some channel alpha/ec/sec/surv and not won, but gotten the rewards for sticking around (100% credits for staying in game even if dead)
  18. spartanhija

    spartanhija Member

    Lyaden, being that until recently solo didnt give creds it makes sense why his creds are so low. Also you do not gain wins creds or cp on solo. At this point i fail to care, i dont know for sure whether he did it or not but the more we talk the less i feel like he actually hacked it especially looking at that pic and seeing us lvl at relativley same speed.
  19. Lyanden

    Lyanden Well-Known Member

    Ok.. so his medals do match up too well with his wins as I mentioned in my initial post. Something old players should not have.

    139 + 305 + 1 + 1 = 446.

    His CAR is level 9 with 2 ticks.

    9 x 5 = 450.

    The only reason I went for the 700 wins thing was because you told me I was wrong the 1st time Ghost.

    In addition, that would bring his average exp even further down.


    Sparta

    You went from 4.9k to 20k now

    He went from 50k to almost 90k now.

    That's 15k gain for you. 40ishk for him. That is not the same level of gain. That is more than twice your rate, and yours is among the higher ones in this new batch.
  20. spartanhija

    spartanhija Member

    Refinement* u do gain creds now on solo but for a while you didnt*
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