Combat Engineer Stuff

Discussion in 'Class Discussion' started by Kith, Jan 26, 2013.

  1. Kith
    • Development Team
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    Kith NOTD Staff: Anti-Fun Wizard Skeleton

    The Engineer is easily one of the most powerful DPSes in the game, and it's mostly due to the X-1. IMA and BHS are cute, but the X-1 essentially doubles the player's DPS output passively, can fire on the move, has a one-size-fits-all weapon, does not consume ammo, and can gain increased damage the more kills it gets. The leveling is slow at first, but once it gets "up there" thanks to Overdrive, things get a little silly.

    NOTD is "dying" because Starcraft II is "dying" - overall attendance has been at record lows partially because people are waiting for Legacy of the Void and partially because Blizzard has rolled out two new games (Hearthstone and Heroes of the Storm) and two expansions to massively successful properties (Reaper and Warlords).

    NOTD will not be receiving major content updates or balance updates for an indefinite period of time because we are focused on NOTD 2. This does not mean that NOTD has been forgotten - we will still be implementing bugfixes to repair catastrophic issues that may arise from Starcraft II being updated. However, it does mean that we're not too terribly concerned about NOTD's balance issues - the game is five years old now and we're working on a bigger and better sequel.

    There have been murmurs of implementing NOTD 2's updates into the NOTD game as a Special Edition Update or something similar and keeping the original map/balance as NOTD Classic, but we have yet to actually reach the point where NOTD 2 is in Beta so that's a ways in the future.
  2. JohnyM

    JohnyM Member

    Does that mean "it's staying as it is" ?

    Some numbers tested in ECNM - solo sq2500
    mk1 vs zombie - 7 hits = 8,5 seconds to kill
    mk2 vs zombie - 6 hits = 7,2 seconds to kill
    mk3 vs zombie - 4 hits = 4,8 seconds to kill

    With more players in game, those numbers go sky high.
    Boom headshot + sg in engi hands is op (buy or be useless), but bot until lvl 9 is total crap.
  3. Kith
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    Kith NOTD Staff: Anti-Fun Wizard Skeleton

    For the forseeable future, yes. If we changed it now it would delay NOTD 2's progress even further and possibly infuriate the crotchety old community veterans who have very loud and very angry opinions about what is and isn't okay.

    Okay, there's your problem:
    It's on Nightmare Mode and it's 2500 SR.
    You are playing at, literally, the highest possible difficulty. Things are going to spiral wildly out of control when you do that.
  4. JohnyM

    JohnyM Member

    Sorry, im not a native speaker, maybe im not precise enought with what im saying. I agree with EVERYTHING that was said here.

    What i think is wrong with engi bot is that there is no dps output difference between bot mk1 and bot mk3 - thats all.
    "Well, imho engi is not that bad early lvls. But, you need to skip the bot untill lvl 4, so you get the full dps bonus for repeated attcks"
    So engi build is "forever bot mk1" - i proposed how to encourage picking bot lvl2 and lvl3.

    "once it gets '"up there"' thanks to Overdrive, things get a little silly"
    Again, "up there" effect is same for mk1 and mk3. Actually picking mk3 make's "up there" come a lot later than with mk1 (cuz you pick useless bot instead of usefull skills which helps you to lvl up).

    "Okay, there's your problem:
    "'It's on Nightmare Mode and it's 2500 SR."'
    You are playing at, literally, the highest possible difficulty. Things are going to spiral wildly out of control when you do that."
    Since it became new standard (either ec rec / nm ~2500) im refering to this.
    Im not mentioning that mando sg melts everything making engi bot even more comical than it is in ec rec.

    Since i know that you busy with notd2 i propose easy (imo, i dunno a lot bout pc's/programming) solution - make bot base attack being affected by IMA
    Last edited: Jun 3, 2015
  5. Marcus

    Marcus Member

    While we speak about engi&stuff I say this: make bot after dying drop "trash" something like tech drones do while after picking it by new bot he gains 75% xp of previous bot(Or whatever amount deemed appropiate).

    Anyway I always took bot as support for engi and not as primary dps(So not bot>engi but engi>bot).

    Tho I must say that lvl 1 and lvl 2 bot have no difference in dps sense(+4 dmg is not worth mentioning). In lvl 3 bot get "true" dmg(ignoring armor, something nice - if I got it right:p). Anyway bot get more hp/shield and therefore he can support engi other abilities longer(higher chance not dying when you dont want).

    For that you complaining about that its better to lvl anything else then bot lvl 2,3 I say there are lot of abilities that are not leveled at all or just lvl 1 so this way you would have to change them all.

    I could still imagine that lvl 2 bot would increase attack speed of bot by 15% as addition to current state.
  6. Kith
    • Development Team
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    Kith NOTD Staff: Anti-Fun Wizard Skeleton

    That's fine, we can go over it as many times as you need. I'm awful at languages I'm not native to, so I understand.

    This is incorrect. The X1 goes from 12, to 18, to 24 damage per shot. That's a 100% upgrade in DPS by level 3, in addition to ignoring armor.

    The X1 already has plenty of reason to upgrade it because its damage gets increased.

    It's not, really. Because the base damage goes up, the Mk1 and Mk3 have a very large difference in how much bonus damage they get from levels.

    Whether or not it's the new standard is irrelevant. The game is designed and balanced for that being the hardest difficulty - we're not going to change it because so many people have played NOTD to death that the original maximum difficulty is no longer challenging to them.

    It doesn't need this. The Engineer is powerful enough as it is.
  7. squish

    squish Well-Known Member

    I literally don't even bother skilling x1 level 2 or 3.

    Early game, It's Me Again is such a large eclipse over the X-1 that to skill it more than once hurts your level progression.
    Show Spoiler

    Here's an idea:

    It's Me Again (Additional stuff, base talent as is, or can even have engi gun damage reduced)

    Have the level of both talents affect this, lowest level denominator, meaning x1 lvl 1 and ima level 3 the attack bounces once, and so on.

    X1's base attack bounces 1, 2, 3 times per talent level of BOTH It's Me Again! And X-1 Guardian
  8. Kith
    • Development Team
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    Kith NOTD Staff: Anti-Fun Wizard Skeleton

  9. JohnyM

    JohnyM Member

    So i was right :p !
  10. Kith
    • Development Team
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    Kith NOTD Staff: Anti-Fun Wizard Skeleton

    If we didn't care, we wouldn't be committed to keeping the game playable through bugfixes and we wouldn't think about porting the NOTD 2 updates to the original game to upgrade the gameplay.
  11. JohnyM

    JohnyM Member

    Pls don't
  12. Kith
    • Development Team
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    Kith NOTD Staff: Anti-Fun Wizard Skeleton

    And why shouldn't we?
  13. JohnyM

    JohnyM Member

    Ofc you can, its your game. I just dont like notd2 features, while i love those of notd.
    Ie: jump, green mode (play in green or die horribly - why you bothering with textures and colors if you want players to play with green screen - ye, i know you can keep toggling it, but good luck with that)

    Bout old topic: i keep testing combat engi and really, there is no point in making your mk1 into mk3 - it works only in pub. But i understand that you wont change it, so there is no need to talk about it. Though there would be less hate about engi (im mario lover ^^ ) if you coukd fix bot hold fire. It can do critical healing to ereboss and there is literally no way to stop it.
  14. Kith
    • Development Team
    • Designer

    Kith NOTD Staff: Anti-Fun Wizard Skeleton

    Assuming we do, NOTD's original balance will be maintained as NOTD Classic - we're not about to erase the history of the game. As for "green mode", it's been reduced to a novelty: all classes now have a default detection radius and NVGs are there strictly for nostalgia purposes.


    Considering this falls under the scope of a bug fix, yes, I'm pretty sure I can convince Blaqk to do this.
  15. squish

    squish Well-Known Member

    There's a way to stop it. Either kill it or put it into damn shell mode. It's literally useless at level 1, rank 1, and a fresh X1 does tickle tickle damage, especially in shell mode. If you overdrive during Erebos fight and he green shells, that's the engi problem, and the user needs to figure it out. I.E., Shell mode.

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