Combat Engineer Stuff

Discussion in 'Class Discussion' started by Kith, Jan 26, 2013.

  1. Kith
    • Development Team
    • Designer

    Kith NOTD Staff: Anti-Fun Wizard Skeleton

    I just realized that Arcane and I kind of discuss balance a lot. Fancy that.

    PROPOSED CHANGES TO THE X-1
    X-1 gains leveling bar. Akin to the current Reaper drone, with the difference being the bonus of 2.5% bonus movespeed and damage per level. The X-1 can only gain experience from kills it makes.
    X-1 Mk.1 and Mk.2 gain an "upgrade" ability. Said ability costs 100% of its energy. This ability upgrades the X-1 Mk.1 to Mk.2 and Mk.2 to Mk.3 without losing the currently accrued levels and level bonuses.

    This will incentivize players to keep the X-1 alive throughout the game and make microing it somewhat easier as a reward for not throwing it away. This should adequately address all current Combat Engineer issues. Players that lose their 'bot late game will be penalized, but able to accrue levels more quickly due to the presence of Overdrive and/or BHS.
  2. Reaper

    Reaper Moderator/The Crimsonrine

    Yay! Now I don't have to climb down a few devs throats about the X-1 and its movespeed.

    Though I may argue that it just needs +1 range added to it.

    9 range is incredibly short. Its the same radius as the Psi Ops Foresight and damage aura from the Disruption Tower. Double the range that the shotgun has.

    Just 10 range is all I am asking. Go check it out in-game and you'll see the X-1 falls short just by this one range.
  3. Kith
    • Development Team
    • Designer

    Kith NOTD Staff: Anti-Fun Wizard Skeleton

    I was all in favor of just giving the players increased movespeed or range, but making them work for it is something I'd prefer. If this goes through, I can sign off the Engineer as "officially finished" in my books and won't require anything else.
  4. Ghost
    • Warden

    Ghost Warden

    I was hoping to see those alternate load-outs instead of Synergy at T2.

    Anyway, regarding X1 levelling, if the bonus it gets is 5% ms as well as damage, then it should level only from kills it makes, and not from kills by engineer.

    It should level at roughly the same rate the the Rec drone, or slower due to its greater killing power and survivability.
  5. Kith
    • Development Team
    • Designer

    Kith NOTD Staff: Anti-Fun Wizard Skeleton

    Yyyyeah, my original plan was to make the X-1 feature two different weapons to switch to (probably twin-linked gattling guns and a plasma cannon) and all three of the weapons buffed different Engineer skills (regular weapon buffs It's Me Again, Gattling Gun buffs Boom Headshot, and Plasma Cannon buffs Overdrive).

    However, after considering it, I decided that it was too similar to the Infantry Support FO. The supposed difference between the Combat Engineer and the Infantry Support FO is that the split of power is supposed to be on something of a 40:60 basis on the Engineer and a 10:90 on the FO. I like how the X-1 is currently laid out, and I don't really wanna change that too significantly.
  6. Ability
    • Development Team
    • NOTD Creator

    Ability NOTD Creator

    I'm not fine with this. It's a pure buff to X1 when it already works well enough with the right micro.
  7. ArcturusV

    ArcturusV New Member

    Would it be more palatable if you removed the Weapon Damage on level up, but instead had tiered level up abilities? A la predator style, though not though specifically?
  8. Kith
    • Development Team
    • Designer

    Kith NOTD Staff: Anti-Fun Wizard Skeleton

    Boss Ability, do you remember when the Double Damage glitch for the X-1 was fixed and you said we should probably boost the X-1's damage a little bit to compensate for its DPS being cut in half? The X-1's been nerfed pretty hard several times since then, and nowadays people feel it's pretty lackluster. This is, of course, on top of nerfing It's Me Again as well, so Combat Engineer is not played all that often here on NA and according to the people I've asked it's not played all that often on SEA nowadays either.

    Yes, it is a pure buff, but it's not a baseline buff. This is something that the player has to work for throughout the entire game. Please reconsider.
  9. Ghost
    • Warden

    Ghost Warden

    With the fix of IMA buffs disappearing due to splash, the X1/Engie dps was increased incidentally.

    Generally I'm not really feeling the X1 needs an actual buff to its stats. At most I'd suggest having alternate loadouts instead of the Synergy talent.
  10. Ability
    • Development Team
    • NOTD Creator

    Ability NOTD Creator

    Okay. The level increments need to be moderated closely and capped. There shouldn't be a situation where the X1 is 40% faster or deadlier. It gives the X1 a disproportionate effect at that point. Unless there is an FO around, I usually can maintain close to top kills as a DPS.
  11. Kith
    • Development Team
    • Designer

    Kith NOTD Staff: Anti-Fun Wizard Skeleton

    Thank you. I should stress I don't make this suggestion lightly, because it's no secret that I don't like the Combat Engineer and I should point out that I kinda jumped at the chance to nerf the crap out of him. I only make this suggestion because I, after reviewing the feedback that I've gotten ever since, believe that I overdid it.

    If we're looking to tone down the bonus, I'm perfectly okay with 3%. Even at level 10 (which I can't imagine the X-1 getting any higher than that very easily) that's only a 30% increase, and we can cap it at that. If we want it to go any lower, then 2.5% would be fine as well.
  12. Ghost
    • Warden

    Ghost Warden

    I think 2.5% per level and and make level increments every 600XP. Only kills by X1 itself count towards its XP. It gains XP awards at the same level as Recon drone.

    Reason being that you get X1 from level 1, while Recon drone is obtained at level 9. This is to make it very very difficult to go above level 7/8 on the bot by the end without lots of micro and letting it get the kills.

    In general terms, it should be levelling slower than a player dying at start and playing Predator.
  13. Kith
    • Development Team
    • Designer

    Kith NOTD Staff: Anti-Fun Wizard Skeleton

    Fine by me.
  14. Ability
    • Development Team
    • NOTD Creator

    Ability NOTD Creator

    Okay. Good to go.
  15. Kith
    • Development Team
    • Designer

    Kith NOTD Staff: Anti-Fun Wizard Skeleton

    Neato. First post updated.
  16. JohnyM

    JohnyM Member

    Prolly no one care's, but im stilll gonna say this:
    -There is no difference between bot mk1 and bot mk3 - other than few more hits that mk3 can tank. Totally not worth two additional skill points.
    -Unless bot gains overdrive it's dps is non existing (no matter if it's mk1 or mk2/3). Overdrive dps is literally same in mk1 and mk3.
    -There is absolutely no difference in bot lvl 1 or lvl10, so i dont even care to keep it alive. Lvled bot can keep up with engi, since low level bot is sooo slow it often die left behind. Or while it's needed near engi asap, he just make new bot (result is loosing lvl's and movement speed again). Since bot energy regen is almost no existent and overdrive use 40(20+10+10)/75 energy, there is no mana to sprint bot.

    My suggestion: make "it's me again" affect bot as it does with engi. Result is that difference between lvl 1 and 3 bot is increasing when bot is controlled properly. Also it's now worth to keep that lvl'ed bot alive, since bonus dmg stach with each hit.

    Those changes may allow to use bot to something else than tanking.
    Last edited: Jun 2, 2015
  17. Blaqk
    • Development Team
    • Webmaster/Liaison

    Blaqk NOTD Staff: Bugs, Pugs, and Scruggs

    You should take another look at the bot's stats. Damage, Range, and Movement speed all increase from M1 to 2 to 3. The bot's level is also EXTREMELY important. 2.5% per level (or whatever Ability decided to set it to years ago) may seem trivial on its base attack, but it ALSO buffs Overdrive, which does make a considerable difference given the attack reset "feature" of Overdrive. You should also not underestimate the robot's effectiveness in holdouts as, contrary to appearance, it does deal splash damage.

    Side note: saying "Prolly no one care's" is a great way to not be taken seriously.
  18. JohnyM

    JohnyM Member

    I didnt noticed any range change. Though mk3 bot can at last keep up with engi (not worth 2 talents) and damage difference between mk1 and mk3 is only noticeable in pub (in decent sq nm those are paper bullets) - i took my time to test it - can post replays if you want. Thanks to splash, it deal no damage not to one zombie, but it deal no damage to 6 zobies per 1.2 second!
    Since bot mk1/2/3 aint affecting overdrive, only its base dps, im not refering to overdrive. It's standart dps is non existent no matter the lvl or mk. Thats why i propose to make it affected by "it's me again". It could make players spent those 2 additional talents to combat tree after lvl 9.
    I agree on that the lvl affect overdrive nicely, but thats the one and only thing which it's good for (so the prize for care for bot is ~25% more dps for overdrive). Well, maybe it's enough.

    Conclusion/suggestion: bot mk1/2/3 aint rewarding enough to spend talent points into it. Make bot base dmg affected by "it's me again" - at least try it out or something - unless you're confident that basic bot dps is totally ok (it takes ~6-14hits to kill basic zombie dependent on bot mk/lvl - with "it's me again it would take few hits less).

    Since many peeps are saying that notd is dead/dying game and devs are saying that they wont fix it due to notd2 etc i came to this conclusion. Im glad that you do care and i was wrong.
  19. Blaqk
    • Development Team
    • Webmaster/Liaison

    Blaqk NOTD Staff: Bugs, Pugs, and Scruggs

    If I had my way two years ago, Combat Engineer would have a better early-game. As it stands, you contribute little other than ghoul tanking until you get Boom Headshot and Overdrive. Ability wanted Engineer to be "top heavy" and he sure as hell is, for better and for worse.
  20. tomazkid

    tomazkid Member

    Well, imho engi is not that bad early lvls. But, you need to skip the bot untill lvl 4, so you get the full dps bonus for repeated attcks vs big targets.
    and then with lvl1 bot and the combined bot+engy dmg vs same target pretty good dps.
    This build however, means to neglect the headshot and early high lvl bot.
    However, from my experience playing this in pubs, you get dps up to crofl lvl before the overdrive.

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