Class Reworks & Mind Numbingly Old Skills

Discussion in 'NOTD Discussion' started by Lord NiteShade, Feb 7, 2012.

  1. Lord NiteShade
    • Wiki Founder
    • Community Leader

    Lord NiteShade NOTD Staff: Wiki Founder/TeamSpeak Admin

    Explosives Demo
    He's not bad persay, but he needs more. He has changed little in either numbers or mechanics since his inception. Overall it seems his role of "aoe damage through explosions" has never truly been filled as one would expect. The main issues I see are as follows.

    1: Mines
    These could just as easily be combined into one super skill, most likely still a Tier 1 skill. Create & Place mines dont need to be separate skills, except to eat space. This frees demo up to some form of new semi-spammable T1 or Passive.

    2: Satchels
    Satchels are incredibly niche in there usage. So much they are often forsaken all together. The fuse is very long, and any enemy thats roughly 1.7 speed will have moved entirely off the radius unless the satchel was placed well in advance. The best solution IMO would be to rework satchels to have a toggled detonation. This would probly be a marine action somewhere. One mode sets satchels to a timed detonation, ie 3 seconds after placing. The second setting is manual detonation, and clicking the satchel will blow it up. To limit the potential for hilarious boss OHKs, limit the number of Active satchels, and if the player overproduces, the old ones simply defuse and "die."

    3: Wall of Fire
    Let's face it, this skill sucks. It's mechanics are buggy, its damage scales poorly, and its not large enough or effective enough to make a difference. Imo just replace it entirely with something fresh and new. Preferably something more in line with the demo's theme, like a "mother of all bombs." Currently firewall is a poor skill with no niche. I assume its designed for large scale horde slowing and heavy damage over time. Problem is it fails at both roles. Nanomedics Sear is far superior for dots, and Traps is almost unrivaled at slowing, ie, stopping in their tracks, enemies.

    Sub Commando
    Sub could really use a thorough look over. I ask the question what exactly is the role of the class? Operations is clearly a high damage dealer combined with long range aoe. He's also a Final Fantasy style Death Knight, trading HP for Damage (in our case energy). But what purpose does SubComm have? His very name implies he's a stealthy, lone wolf survival character. Do we really need more of that? MobRecon and SubMM already have the lone wolf scout roles handled extremely well. The irony is SubComm is mostly random skills, most with a team effecting nature.

    1: Perception
    This skill needs massive revision, or a total replacement. It's never useful except for detonation. Even on an OpComm its better to just get HS for maximum dps and aoe detection. There's never a good opportunity to put this skill to any kind of decent effect. It's always just "kind of helpful."

    2: Killing Me Softly
    I'm not going to lie I hate this skill. I've always felt the Jedi Lunge was way too gimmicky and reminded me way to much of the (ironically named) Commando Knife in MW2, which makes you teleport upwards of 20ft (its 216 inches "in game" units) to stab enemies. Anyways, gameplay wise its just a riskier osok that cant do crap to bosses. It's only good usage is honestly Infestors, Huggers, and Agrons. Nothing else really warrants its usage. I'd honestly be happier saying adios to it.

    3: Mind Meld
    This skill serves little real purpose. It turns any enemy into a tank, however, enemy AI is often still active, making them pesky to control. Whats worse, their threat level remains the same, and they are often ignored outright in favor of chasing players. I would like to see some kind of revision. I remember Khorne and I posted the improved variant "Damnation" a while back, which basically turned enemies into living bombs. Essentially a mix of the current MM and VI. Arcane also suggested a dual purpose skill, that had radically different effects on friend vs foe, but I can't remember it.

    4: The Whole Damn Tree
    I ask Ability, what is the purpose behind SubComm, and what is his reason for existence? The very name subtlety suggests stealth and infiltration as his forte, yet I see an odd mix of "psychic" based skills and team support, mixed with very selfish passive skills. He's mostly a gimmick class and I still don't understand how he ever filled a permanent seat on any team, other than for abusing the Mind Meld health bug.

    I suggest we just redo the entire damn tree into a "Leadership/Commander" class. Then it splits his role into a class of very self centered skills (all of Ops skills only influence him), or a team oriented support class. The groundwork for this leader class is already there, and multiple players have already stepped forth suggesting various leadership classes of their own. HS could easily be retooled into a more fitting "command" style skill. Likewise Combat Hardened also has some potential for a more team focused skill. Currently I just feel that SubComm fills no real role or has any purpose other than flash.

    Am I the only person who thinks Criticals and Concentration should be switched? SubMM relies heavily on his use of Quick Aim to deal the most damage he can while cloaked. Ironically, these drains concentration ridiculously fast unless he's using a Stinger/GLaunch. Concentration by itself takes forever to build up, and the player is almost always shooting. Even with the slowest of automatic weapons, its almost impossible to find enough down time to build up concentration unless you specifically run around holding fire. The skill was originally designed under the assumption SubMM would also prove to use Sniper rifles almost exclusively, which has proven not true.

    Now, Criticals work be more fitting on SubMM. They allow his damage output to maintain more constant, and he no longer is burdened by his constant fast firing of guns compared to concens extremely slow build up period. Meanwhile, on Assassin, he almost always uses snipers, which have natural synergy with Concentration, given how slow they are. Last but not least, we could rework critical-osok synergy into concen-osok synergy allowing for greater damage thresholds for the marksmen.

    I'm pretty sure Mind Blast is the oldest skill in all of NOTD. It's received virtually no changes, ever. If I remember correctly Peera said it was so old it was once referred to as a place holder skill. Overall it's a weak skill, has no synergy, and has a name thats unfitting of the class. I say we just rework it into something more suitable. I like the concept of an early game stun, but i find mind blast on a whole to be a let down, especially when Nano-Haste has been made so appealing. One things for sure, the days of going NanoMed to killsteal the starter ghoul horde with mindblast are long behind us, so why not update skill...

    It also seems that Psi-Ops skills are intentionally on trees where they have the least synergy possible. Imo Mind Link and Speed of Thought need to be on the same tree. This creates a very powerful natural synergy between the two. The Psi-Ops links allies for the sight/damage reduc, but then can also use them as waypoints for easy access teleports. Currently Speed of Thoughts usage is somewhat limited without heavy use of flares, Ivan/Olgi, or Field Nexus.
  2. Ghost
    • Warden

    Ghost Warden

    Demolitions needs a rework on the demo tree. Totally outclassed by the Fortitude tree. Merging mines is the first step. Too bad we can't move satchel to T1 as that would make T2 2 passives unless we turn T3 into a explosives buffer passive.
    I am wary of making the T1 passive rely on units being hit by an explosive as that again would make it a poor passive until you get the T1 active (same situation as now).

    On a sidenote, FO's arty tree T1 passive also relies on you to have the T1 active. This similarly could use a look, though in that case probably move it to T2 and have 2 passives on T2 (stun rounds to T1)

    For the SubComm while KMS is gimmicky, I believe it was kept due to the "fear" factor of having the guy next to you explode at the blink of an eye.
    Granted, we are dealing with zombies who probably have no fear, but it is still a worthwhile skill. I do feel that instead of a cooldown reduction something else might be more useful for lvl2.

    MindMeld can have damnation added to it. Make it work like it does now + when you select the unit it now has the implode button active.

    Mindblast has had a few changes in the past 35 to 30 cost, increased damage, but overall not very stellar. Maybe with some sort of synergy like Earendil suggested a while back on Nano-Sear it could be quite viable. I think Ability mentioned it is for dealing with huggers. Still, Medic needs a 2nd passive so this could be the skill to replace (if people are too averse to replacing Heal instead because it is oh-so-medicky).

    Agree that some Psi skills could use a tree swap so you don't need 2 Psi Ops to have some synergy.
  3. Ability
    • Development Team
    • NOTD Creator

    Ability NOTD Creator

    Demo explosives tree will have to be updated and the Commando's Subtlety tree will have to be rebuilt as well.
  4. Peerawatz
    • Development Team

    Peerawatz NOTD Staff: Sound Mixer and NOTD Troll Chieftain

    I can help with the rework, along with my 2 passives for CE. One is already being considered.
  5. ArcanePariah
    • Development Team
    • Map Developer

    ArcanePariah Miracle Worker


    This class is near perfect with the Augmented Legs Replacement. I have only 2 further suggestions to make this class more... synergistic I guess.

    1) Attributed to Kithrixx, he came up with the idea. Swap Precision Shot with Weapon Proficiency

    Reasoning: Weapon Proficenty is a combat oriented skill, favoring more damage. Precision Shot is a damage skill, however it is a powerful slow, which fits the theme of Survival Rifleman. I envision Survival Rifleman as the ultimate disabler, featuring mass number of slows and stuns. The Combat Rifleman would be the jack of all trades DPSer, in that no weapon is bad in his hands. With Rapid Fire, slow weapons become good. With Weapon Prof, High Damage, long reload weapons become good.

    2) Replace Critical Strike with an Active Skill

    Critical is overused, 3 diff classes have it. It is a simple mechanic, more suitable on a more dedicated DPS like Arms Assault. The Rifleman should feature something more unique in that regard. Also if weapon Prof and Pshot are swapped, it leaves combat tree with only 2 active skills, neither in T1.
  6. Ramses II
    • Donator

    Ramses II Help, I can't change my title!

    The combat leadership tree of the squad leader concept class I created would serve as a good replacement for the all-too gimmicky subcomm tree. It would make commando a choice between personal damage and team damage.

    The chain explosives in Nicarco's scientist could be fixed up and added to the demolitions tree (they would scale very well in higher difficulties as there's more stuff to chain with).

    Protection Assault's taunt needs a rework. From what I understand, it is extremely outdated from back before fortitute demolitions even existed. It doesn't work to have a skill that's just clearly worse than another in every situation. The one benefit assault's taunt has is the lower energy cost. It is also very bad for new players to see taunt and decide, oh this class is clearly the tank class, and since this tank class is slowed when he tanks he must be designed to facetank. As any decent player will tell you, before you have safeguard you really don't want to tank ANYTHING and even then there are many times/enemies you'd rather kite, stun, etc. (parasites, agrons, banelings, erebos)
  7. Ghost
    • Warden

    Ghost Warden

    I disagree with moving WF on the rifleman as it will make the combat tree much too powerful. WF increases survival as it cuts reload and taking this skill from the survival rifle will make it very unattractive to play.

    In terms of taunt, the cooldown wasd recently reduced from 15 to 12 although I feel 10 is better given that you get a ms debuff compared to IYF.

    I would say also that directly comparing taunt is a bit unfair as the skills are quite different in the debuffs applied already and cost.
  8. ArcanePariah
    • Development Team
    • Map Developer

    ArcanePariah Miracle Worker

    I would disagree for 2 reasons. Because of the changes to Survival Rifle recently, he has become an all powerful team disabler. Removing weapon prof would probably not deter anyone from playing him, given traps, repulse and Improved Focus Fire. Pshot would further add to his arsenal of disables. Survival is NOT a dpser, so why pretend to be?

    2nd reason is this: Does ANY serious NM game in ANY story, bother with Combat Rifle? The only time I've ever seen him is in Alpha for real dps. He can be found in NM Apollo runs, but adds nothing, we kinda just bring him along to get Silver Stars and Exped Medals. 90% of the time we dump him in favor of 2nd engie or PO or Tech. I never see him EC NM, hes plain worthless nowadays for that, ESPECIALLY with the changes to Survival Rofl.
  9. Ghost
    • Warden

    Ghost Warden

    On EU hardly anyone bothers with Survival Rifle in any storyline on NM. We always pick Combat as it has a lot more utility. Giving him WF and taking away PS would only make him more powerful given how Grenades now outclass PS even on single targets and the only drawback being no slowing and no perm killing of immortals.
  10. ArcanePariah
    • Development Team
    • Map Developer

    ArcanePariah Miracle Worker

    Interesting... Here on NA its the exact opposite. We see Combat as just wannabe mando/engie dps, whereas trapper adds to the team.

    Mainly the utility of combat seems limited at best since both tier 1's are passive, one makes ammo a problem, and the entire tree has only one good team skill (Pshot), and attempts (at least on NA) to do Commandos job... poorly. That is the primary reason we don't use combat: He is a poor mans commando and lacks any late game utility that most other classes/Trees bring. Also grenades is still thought of poorly, mainly because, while it does save ammo and is a decent damage spell, Nuker FAR outweighs it. Any situation that demands the ues of grenade can probably be better handled by either nuke/escape/stinger.

    I'd love to see replays of NM games with CRofl.

    Back to the topic at hand. I still believe at least, critical strike should be replace with something more flavorful then "% to double damage"
  11. Ramses II
    • Donator

    Ramses II Help, I can't change my title!

    Why is the taunt on the higher experience tank easier to use than the taunt on the tank unlocked at the start? It A. doesn't have the slow, B. reduces the damage by a larger percentage, and C. has a cooldown as long as its effects.

    If anything, the demo should have the taunt that slows himself and has a longer cooldown than effect. He can keep his 15/30/45 though.
  12. Lyanden

    Lyanden Well-Known Member

    Fort Demo might not be intended as a static/stand still tank and was supposed to be more of an Agro sink who moves around avoiding the actual hits from the big boys if possible, hence the higher damage reduction [so that if he does get hit by a big boy, his lifeline (shields) does not fall that fast].

    Little boys he can stand still against, though still not as much as an asstank
  13. Ramses II
    • Donator

    Ramses II Help, I can't change my title!

    Pre-safeguard, neither is protection assault. It has not been since erebos began ignoring armor this past fall.
  14. Lyanden

    Lyanden Well-Known Member

    Oh sorry, forgot to mention I meant my comment as pertaining to new AssTanks already with Safeguard and new FortDemos already with TTD.

    Game mechanics are completely different for 'vets' since as you mentioned above, neither (or indeed no class at all) should be taking unnecessary hits.

    Erebos on the other hand is a boss specifically designed to be 'untankable'.

    (He is though with spammed nano shield on any class)

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