Class Points

Discussion in 'NOTD Discussion' started by Ramses II, Apr 22, 2012.

  1. Peerawatz
    • Development Team

    Peerawatz NOTD Staff: Sound Mixer and NOTD Troll Chieftain

    RE: CP

    If you're dedicated Recon Player, you will know that what Recon needs the most as CP, is not movespeed, not energy regeneration, not max energy, not even dps.

    He Needs A Higher Hp, end of story.

    My greatest challenge that I can hardly accomplish is to die with lower than 10 hits. I always die with 0-3 hits, because everything just fucking kill me in 0.5 seconds. Stuffs you can't micro shit to avoid.
  2. Kith
    • Development Team
    • Designer

    Kith NOTD Staff: Anti-Fun Wizard Skeleton

    RE: CP

    Customization is the spice of life. Currently, the CP bonus is bland and uninteresting. The 5 CP bonus is uninspired and the 10 CP bonus is WAY too powerful. The spare talent needs to be moved much further along in the way of progress, and there need to be more bonuses along the way so the player feels like they're accomplishing something, and the bonuses are unique to the classes so it doesn't seem bland.

    ...

    I daresay that would obliterate balance even harder. Recons and Medics would be able to max out both trees without the slightest hint of an issue. Diode would have a fucking field day.[hr]
    Hey, it's just a suggestion. We can always just make the CP bonuses generic bonuses that players can spend their points on instead of restricting them to specific bonuses. Similar to skill points, but available for different stuff.
  3. SirGalahad

    SirGalahad New Member

    RE: CP

    I don't know the exact values, but the ingame XP required for each level increases by a much greater amount per level. Therefore a 10% increase in total XP would increase the rate at which levels are gained but would result in only a half or at most a single level at the end of the campaign (level 12 or so for most classes). This does not include the snowballing effect though, so depending on the table of XP required per level, the 10% may be a bit too much. But there is absolutely no way that a 10% xp gain replacing the bonus talent would result in players maxing out both trees. If it takes 8k exp to get to level 10, the total bonus xp will have only been 8k - 8k/1.1 = 727 xp. This is hardly gamebreaking.

    In game terms, marines have a non-linear level progression resulting in a soft level cap (excluding lucky DTs). The highest I have ever seen any player achieve in any mode is level 14, and I have only heard of a level 15. A 10% increase would not push people to a new high at those levels since there is such a steep increase in XP requirement. Given that it takes 9 talents to get T3, and the bonus talent would be eliminated, players would still require massive luck from their Int in order to attain both T3s.
  4. Kith
    • Development Team
    • Designer

    Kith NOTD Staff: Anti-Fun Wizard Skeleton

    RE: CP

    The 10% additional exp will make DPS classes snowball so fast you'll think they went through a fucking particle accelerator. The faster they level, the more kills they get, which makes them level faster.

    The 20% increased shared exp means that a full team of CP holding people means that everyone is getting 140% increased shared exp. Stacking that with the Recon/Medic's super shared exp means literally maxing out both trees without effort.

    I don't see how this is a better solution than just making the CP bonus having the player start at Level 2 instead of Level 1. Occam's Razor, and all that.
  5. Seeky

    Seeky New Member

    RE: CP

    Just keep it the way it is. If the game's too easy by having an extra TP, buff the zombies, not nerd the marines.
  6. SirGalahad

    SirGalahad New Member

    RE: CP

    The DPS classes already snowball through the extra starting talent. Again, using the hard XP numbers, 10% is not an extreme amount. If someone posts an XP table this number can be reduced if necessary.

    Regarding the shared XP suggestion, you seem to have misunderstood what I meant when I said 20% shared XP. I did not mean that the marine with 10 CP will give others 20% more shared XP with each kill, but that the marine would receive 20% more. This means that on a full CP team, every player would receive a grand total of 20% extra shared XP. Perhaps I should have been clearer, but CP bonuses only directly benefit the player with the requisite amount of CP. Yes, this change means that recons and medics will level faster, since most of their XP is granted through their shared XP bonus. However, given the fact that if the extra talent point is removed, they have no easy way to make up for the lost point, I'm comfortable with this change benefiting non-DPS classes the most. Again, with access to an XP table, the 20% number can be easily adjusted to ensure that level 12 or 13 (as I see it) remains the most common final level.
  7. Lord NiteShade
    • Wiki Founder
    • Community Leader

    Lord NiteShade NOTD Staff: Wiki Founder/TeamSpeak Admin

    RE: CP

    DPS classes will always snowball. It's in their nature. It's an inherent flaw in the way experience is earned and shared. Any bonus to leveling be it talent or exp gain will just increase the factor at which they happen to. Know how to limit yourself is just as much part of the skill of a high damage class.
  8. Kith
    • Development Team
    • Designer

    Kith NOTD Staff: Anti-Fun Wizard Skeleton

    RE: CP

    Hmm. I would still much rather it be a double edged sword. Starting at Level 2 has its advantages, but you run into the level cap earlier, so balance is maintained. We wouldn't have to rebalance the entire game around it because it would balance itself.
  9. Zuriel

    Zuriel Well-Known Member

    RE: CP

    I feel that kith has a point regarding the cp system being bland.

    To ensure that some change is introduced, while keeping the bonus tp at an achievable level, I suggest

    5CP: extra shields
    10 CP: extra energy regen (5%)
    15 CP: extra HP regen (5%)
    20 CP: bonus tp
    25 CP: bonus class specific perk (to be decided by someone who knows balance well)
  10. Ramses II
    • Donator

    Ramses II Help, I can't change my title!

    RE: CP

    Having the bonus talent point at anything anyone has more than one class at currently is overpowered. It should be the highest possible cp bonus and apply to the class you have the most cp in (with a minimum of X).
  11. Zuriel

    Zuriel Well-Known Member

    RE: CP

    From my perspective, the class specific perk can be more influential than the +1 talent. Like increased Max energy for flamer- more usage of burst fire early on, and more spamming of pellets, smite etc later on. That is more likely to overpower a class than the bonus talent, which already exists anyway.
  12. Kith
    • Development Team
    • Designer

    Kith NOTD Staff: Anti-Fun Wizard Skeleton

    RE: CP

    There's a reason I put the final bonus so far along the line. In concept it's okay, but its way too accessable. 50 CP is still accessable, just more difficult to get on a casual level. You have to play for a long time and put forth real effort to earn it.
  13. HDD
    • Donator

    HDD Well-Known Member

    What about having a chance to start whit a Extra Points? , The CP system remain the same(10 CP = 1 Points), just you have a small chance to start off whit a Extra points, Even that, will still have issue, cause players might keep remaking until they got it. I was thinking of a rate of 35-45% chance to get it (Seems fair enough) Every re-work on the CP system will still cause nightmares, because of the balance or how things will turn on that game? Its just an idea, but it could work has well whitout trolling too much everyone
  14. Zuriel

    Zuriel Well-Known Member

    Well 50CP is way too high IMO. The average player will thus have enough CP to achieve the talent for 1 class are we then, going to decrease mob spawns to a doable level for players without the talent? This, will result in much more work put in to find a decent level, but I guess its reasonable given the circumstances.

    Although I'd rather avoid this ad players would, IMO, become more selfish and want to stick to their highly specialised class and refuse to go for any other class, for fear of decay and in order to utilise their precious tp.
  15. FlintLckwood

    FlintLckwood New Member

    I don't see what everyone is whining about with the CP talent point. I've been a viable part of my Alpha NM Speed runs since I was (again) able to play it at 1k xp. I've never had a problem with being massively under-leveled, nor have I had a problem adding to the teams composition. If this is strictly an Apollo NM problem, then it seems we know where the balance culprit is.

    I like the revised idea that Kithrix first posted (without the cp loss in recruit, obviously). I would think switch the sight range bonus to 20cp, and take out the critical chance. Move energy regen to 40 cp (since it is much better than a slightly higher sight range), and reduce it to .1 or something along those lines. Keep 50cp as a bonus Talent point. With the reduced chances for loss and the increased points per game, CP will lose it's current ideology of Specialization (which I fought against), and instead be a more skill based acquisition. If you are a good enough and versatile enough player, you would be able to (eventually) get to 50 cp in each class and maintain those levels. I can see someone wanting to only play the class they just got 50 cp in for a few games, but if they don't move on from that then people will just stop playing with them for being a poor team mate.

    Quite honestly, once the reduced/negated chances for loss of CP come into play, there should be no complaining about playing a non-CP class, since it is a chance to earn those CP for a different class and still be a viable member of the team. However, I propose one change to the system.

    NM, if you die, 15% chance for CP loss

    Why? Because CP gain should be skill based, and in the end, so should it's loss. While not punishing you for losing in normal and veteran games, you already have the chance percentages to lose CP. If there is no possible way to lose CP in NM games, no one will play anything but those games, and regardless of skill be able to farm CP points. There should be a balance against this, and my idea is a chance loss for dying. Maybe even make it

    NM, if you die, 30% chance to lose 1 CP on current class

    That way if you build up another class to 50 CP, you don't have to worry about losing those points in a NM game even if you do die, because you weren't playing that class. Personally (because I'm a video game sadist) I would include that if you have 50CP+, dying as that class in NM is an automatic -1 to that classes CP. But thats me.
  16. Ramses II
    • Donator

    Ramses II Help, I can't change my title!

    Having a chance to lose CP on death at ANY level is a bad idea. It forces players to only play with teams they can trust rather than inviting new players to their games.
  17. Lord NiteShade
    • Wiki Founder
    • Community Leader

    Lord NiteShade NOTD Staff: Wiki Founder/TeamSpeak Admin

    The opposite. It has existing teams more unwilling to invite untested players. In the event that player is a viability, he will cause cp loss in addition to getting himself and others killed.
  18. Kith
    • Development Team
    • Designer

    Kith NOTD Staff: Anti-Fun Wizard Skeleton

    Random chance is not an option. All it's going to do is increase the amount of pointless remakes.

    No. NOTD is fine as it is with a team that doesn't have CP. Yes, it's difficult, but it's entirely possible, and that's what the core of NOTD has always been: Difficult, but possible. Overwhelming odds and using skill to come out on top.

    Nightmare mode would feature no CP decay. If these theoretical players want to protect their precious points, then they can play Nightmare mode and get more points with no chance of losing said points.

    I'm about ready to finalize this, unless someone can come up with violent objections or major balance holes.

    CLASS POINT GAIN
    Recruit/Easy - Does not grant CP, CP does not decay.
    Normal - Grants 1 CP upon victory. 30% chance for other class CP to decay.
    Hardened/Veteran - Grants 1 CP upon victory. 15% chance for other class CP to decay.
    Nightmare - Grants 2 CP upon victory. Grants 3 CP upon Speed victory. CP does not decay.
    Survival - Does not grant CP unless on Nightmare, which grants 1 CP upon victory. CP does not decay.

    CLASS POINT BONUSES
    10 CP - +20 shields.
    20 CP - 1 Trait point.
    30 CP - +2 sight range, +1 detection range.
    40 CP - 1 additional Trait point, for a total of 2.
    50 CP - Player starts at Level 2.

    TRAITS
    You know how we have Medals/Talents/Stats? This will add a new one called "Class". It will track how many CP you have in that current class and allow you to access the Traits. When you reach 20 CP, you'll get a point to spend in one of the bonuses. When you reach 40 CP, you gain another point, and can choose to double up on the trait you picked before or put it into the other available traits. You only get two points to spend total, but you can put these points in whatever you wish. Putting two points into the same trait will make it a improved trait (I.E., two points in Toughness would make it Improved Toughness, two points in Cunning would be Improved Cunning, so on and so forth).

    Toughness - +5% maximum hitpoints
    Stamina - +10% hitpoint regeneration
    Fortitude - +0.5 Armor
    Resilience - +5% maximum shields (stacks with CP Bonus)
    Sturdiness - +10% shield regeneration
    Hardiness - +0.5 Shield Armor
    Ingenuity - +5% maximum Energy
    Cunning - +10% energy regeneration
    Swiftness - +5% Movespeed
    Alacrity - +5% attack speed
    Precision - +5% Critical Strike chance

    EDIT: Also, the "lose CP on death" thing? People would just savescum with their banks to avoid it.
  19. ArcturusV

    ArcturusV New Member

    Even in Alpha Nightmare CP makes a world of difference. Not so much on the whorey classes necessarily. Though CP is usually the difference between being able to put down Immortals for Good early on or not. And that can be a game breaker if you aren't doing cheesy pathing blocking shit that we should be killing off with a vengeance. And considering it's the DPS storyline rather than the Tanking storyline or the Gimmick storyline "the rich get richer" becomes even more so of a problem. Particularly for the Flamethrower. Key class, needed because it's the only option for Cerberus for the most part. Due to the typical team composition has a harder time leveling than Tanks typically do... not like he has the points where he can just grip and rip with the Crowbar to make up the difference. Not like he has direct Kill Based DPS to help level like the Tech. Other than Shatter (And that's pretty damned short ranged), you have the leveling power of a Medic without shared XP bonuses or any points where you get to "Solo a wave" to make up the difference.

    CP is usually the difference between having Faith for Cerberus, which is highly important, or getting Faith only after the fight. It does snowball. While working on my Flamethrower guide, I had zero CP for it to start out. Without the bonus talent, unless my team was a total gongshow and didn't have overwhelming DPS (In which case we'd typically wipe anyway), I was getting Faith sometime around IVAX reliably, or just from the Kill XP for Cerberus. Usually a good 20 minutes after everyone else has hit Tier 3... ug. When I finally did hit my Flamethrower CP Talent bonus, I found myself reliably hitting Faith soon after I put down Cromo, during the opening attack of the Lab holdout. Without Douchebag teams that actually let me get somewhat close to the enemies without dropping Fire Missions, Bombing Runs, Plasma spam, etc, right on top of my head I'd get Faith sometime between Seth and Cromo. Which was on par with all but the most whorey teammates for the most part.

    CP just snowballs. It doesn't make you one level faster. It makes you gain power exponentially faster.
  20. Kith
    • Development Team
    • Designer

    Kith NOTD Staff: Anti-Fun Wizard Skeleton

    Of course it does. And that's why the bonus talent is going to be a bonus level. You're more powerful early on, but leveling speed scales, so you're not ahead of the game by much.

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