Class Points

Discussion in 'NOTD Discussion' started by Ramses II, Apr 22, 2012.

  1. Ramses II
    • Donator

    Ramses II Help, I can't change my title!

    I dislike that players are forced into playing specific classes and discouraged from branching out. A quality player should be able to play any class when called upon to do so, as quite regularly there is someone else who is better at your favorite class than you are. However, cp makes it a bad idea to try different classes in pubs as you may lose the cp you have in other classes. This means you only practice a few classes and when those are taken already in a nightmare game, you not only are worse at the class you are asked to play you are also at the disadvantage of not having the bonus talent point to start.

    In addition, games are being balanced to expect people to have cp. A team that has everyone having cp is clearly going to do much better than a team that has no one with cp, even if those people are excellent players with those classes. In order for a quality player to start playing a different class that they enjoy using but have no or very little cp in, they must first play a dozen pubs just to be able to play that class in nightmare without upsetting the team and being at an extreme disadvantage. If said person doesn't play very often, this "cp farming" can take a very long time, and further discourages them from playing said class.

    Also, pubs are becoming much harder on newbies because pubstars with cp will often whore to far outlevel them. Pubs are also being balanced for randomed classes from other storylines (such overpowered in EC classes as flamer and rocketeer pathfinder) and players with CP. When a team of relatively new players with low cp plays they almost always lose, and any veteran caught in such a game is forced to play a power class that they have cp in (such as arms assault, fortitude demolitions, crifle, or ops mando) and pretty much carry the game.

    I would like the cp system to be removed, but if that is not possible I think it still needs to be seriously looked over.
  2. Arcelia

    Arcelia New Member

    RE: CP

    I would change the 10 cp bonus to something other than a bonus talent.
    Preferably something unique for each class but that might be asking too much.
    Maybe just something as simple as like +20 energy or +0.1 move speed or some other tiny stat that benefits ALL of the classes equally.
  3. Kith
    • Development Team
    • Designer

    Kith NOTD Staff: Anti-Fun Wizard Skeleton

    RE: CP

    I like my double talent. It's the same thing that the MOS bonus was in :AM. However, the MOS bonus not only was re-applicable to any class at any time (and also applied to groups of classes), but the Heroic leveling system did not guarantee quicker level progression with multiple ability points. Abilities were locked by level, not by tier. I came up with a revised CP system with class-specific bonuses a while ago, but it never took off because of how the system was set up (it involved alternate ability options for all classes, and we're all aware that the classes are short on ability slots). I don't think that the bonus talent point should be removed, just changed to be a much later bonus. Ill post the revised system when I get home from my flight.
  4. Arturia

    Arturia Well-Known Member

    RE: CP

    Kith, I don't think he means that CP should have a much larger reward scale.

    His complaint seems to be mainly around the fact that CP can have drastic affects, and sets people to pigeon-hole into a specific group / niche. Making it require increased dedication wouldn't solve that problem.
  5. ArcturusV

    ArcturusV New Member

    RE: CP

    As noted by the most common question in lobbies, "What do you have CP in?"

    The issue comes in as the bonus talent makes quite the difference at key segments. Take Easy Company:

    Epsilon Hordes: With CP, you will hit tier 2 in the middle of it reliably. Without CP, they will hit tier 2 at the very tail end of the horde at best, most likely won't hit tier 2 until they are doing the Scrap and Wrap, probably halfway through.

    Scrap and Wrap: By the time a CP player is finishing this off, they will have their second tier 2 talent point in. The non-CP players (Especially if not a whoring class or increased shared XP class), will just have reached tier 2.

    By Starport the CP player is knocking on having tier 2 completely filled out, and the non CP player will just be getting their second talent point in. The disparity shows just because of how powerful the tier 2 Haves are versus the Have Nots.

    By the time you finish up Tartar Sauce, the CP player has his tier 3, and the non CP player just got his third tier 2 talent point. And with tier 3s cooking? Well, you know who's getting the lion's share of the Airlock hordes....

    It's not that the 1 Talent point itself makes you 1 level higher. It snowballs into this situation where, by the end of the Airlock the non-CP players won't even have tier 3, and the CP players will be blacking out their tree/a couple points into the next one. It provides very key gains during key timings which widens the gap even further.
  6. Lord NiteShade
    • Wiki Founder
    • Community Leader

    Lord NiteShade NOTD Staff: Wiki Founder/TeamSpeak Admin

    RE: CP

    It's been overpowered since day one. We all know that, we just dont admit it because we like our extra talents. You "can" live without it. But, it's an entire free level. That's important enough, and easy enough to earn, that it has more or less become a staple in notd. The entire system has been flawed since day one.

    1: Recruit Games should not award CP. Period. It's a training mode, nothing more.
    2: Nightmare should award 2 cp, it makes no sense all gamemodes award the same.

    The rewards badly need a rework, with more rewards at further intervals. But that's not going to happen. At the bare minimum the extra talent should be spaced out further. It's odd that I can actively maintain no less than 5 cps at any time. Rifleman, Assault, Marksman, Demo, Commando. Lost Medic & Engy, have like 4 left in Recon. Given enough time you can/will beat the odds. At one point I had every cp, but that was a nightmare to maintain.
  7. Zuriel

    Zuriel Well-Known Member

    RE: CP

    CP makes life easier.

    On vet mode Alpha, the extra talent is so crucial to keeping the team alive, because the high spawns are really a challenge to deal with, even with bonus talents at the start. Removing it now might not be the best idea. I like nite's idea.

    Q: if rec mode doesn't provide CP, does CP decay still set in? (should be no)
    If nightmare awards 2 CP, will there be double decay? (not so sure about this)
  8. Kith
    • Development Team
    • Designer

    Kith NOTD Staff: Anti-Fun Wizard Skeleton

    RE: CP

    It will, actually. CP, specifically the additional talent point, will become much rarer. My intention is to bump the additional talent point bonus up to 50 CP, with small rewards along the way. Also limit what gives CP and what doesn't. Let me just post it:


    [align=center]Kith's big fat greek wedding CP Rework
    Revised for 2012
    [/align]

    GAME MODES
    Recruit/Easy - Does not grant CP. Why would it? It's practice mode. 30% chance for other class CP to decay.
    Normal - Grants 1 CP upon victory. 30% chance for other class CP to decay.
    Hardened/Veteran - Grants 1 CP upon victory. 15% chance for other class CP to decay.
    Nightmare - Grants 2 CP upon victory. Grants 3 CP upon Speed victory. No decay.
    Survival - No decay, no gain.

    CP BONUSES
    10 CP - 20 extra shields.
    20 CP - +.22 energy regeneration.
    30 CP - +5% movespeed.
    40 CP - +2 sight radius, +5% Critical Strike chance.
    50 CP - Bonus talent point.

    OVERALL
    CP becomes more difficult to get in general, but much easier to get for those who play hardball. More risk, more reward. CP bonuses become a series of small buffs that are useful, but hardly gamebreaking, and the ever-present problem child "bonus talent" becomes a reward that people get much further down the road.
  9. ArcturusV

    ArcturusV New Member

    RE: CP

    Standard Decay for Nightmare mode would be my vote. And no CP decay in Recruit. But none of the bonuses either, CP does not exist for it, period. No gain, no loss, no use.

    Now... if The Man actually does that? I can only imagine the shitstorm of bitching that would happen in the wake of the update. It'd be bad. Really bad. Not even going to pretend it'll probably be the biggest issue of complaint about balance in a long, long time.
  10. Lord NiteShade
    • Wiki Founder
    • Community Leader

    Lord NiteShade NOTD Staff: Wiki Founder/TeamSpeak Admin

    RE: CP

    Of course it should decay in recruit. It's a gamemode thats supposed to be for beginners. Outside of teaching new players it should be seen as a waste of time for more experienced players. I bet if you had a graph, "easy co vet" aka, the "intended difficulty" is the least played of any gamemode.

    As for Nightmare, the normal decay is fine. Yes, in theory you could max out every cp through heavy nm play. Good for you, thats a reward for being so damn competent at NM. Survival can/should remain cp immune on all fronts.
  11. Kith
    • Development Team
    • Designer

    Kith NOTD Staff: Anti-Fun Wizard Skeleton

    RE: CP

    I hardly see a problem. And besides, if people bitch about it? Let them cry. They will literally be complaining about the game not being as easy to exploit anymore.
  12. ArcturusV

    ArcturusV New Member

    RE: CP

    Wasn't in reference to your post. Though I do think being punished CP wise for playing in Newbie Mode necessarily is a bit too much of a Screw You. Particularly for players who CAN'T get organized teams due to time of day constraints and the relative lack of players that makes Public Games the only way to go. Instead of no CP growth but keep CP decay for newbie I rather just see it all shut off.

    I only worry about the bitching because it tends to poison people. There are those who will bitch loudly and constantly. They aren't going to quit the game. The fact that they see fit to bitch about it like that just proves it has its hooks in them and they aren't going anywhere. I just don't like seeing it in channel and in game. And I do worry how it might reflect on more casual players to be bombarded by the message that "Yeah, know this game you're struggling to learn because of it's steep learning curve and high difficulty? The developers are out to screw you even more until it's unplayable!" all the time.
  13. Ghost
    • Warden

    Ghost Warden

    RE: CP

    The game tends to be balanced around having CP, yes, but it is not impossible without, just a bit harder.
    To say that people outlevel teammates in organized games with CP is false due to the nature of it being an organized gane. On EU at least we hold fire and don't use kill talents if we are ahead on the level curve during waves so others can keep up and generally aim for the tank to get T3 first. That is down to teamplay and communication. People who continue to kill whore in an organized game do not belong there and ruin the game for everyone else.

    We mostly also do not experience players refusing to play a noncp class purely because of cp. We expect people to learn all classes or at least a large selection and all do over time.

    So that leaves random games only, and to be honest, it doesn't matter if you got cp in pub or not. It is dead easy regardless. Most people will killwhore anyhow there even without cp. And I dare say it would be worse without.

    Making cp decay more in newbie mode will jusyt discourage higher xp players from playing it resulting in fewer full pub lobbies and fewer pub players and future notd addicts. Therefore no change should be made there.

    I can agree with cp bonus talent being moved to say 20 or 30 with a different bonus in between but I feel it would shoehorn certain people into classes even more, so the current system for all intents and purposes is fine to allow diversification.

    I do feel that decay could be reduced in NM games but that's probably the only change I would make at this stage.
  14. ArcanePariah
    • Development Team
    • Map Developer

    ArcanePariah Miracle Worker

    RE: CP

    I agree with granting no CP for Recruit, but must majorly disagree with the decay if that is the case. You are more or less telling every vet, Recruit/Pubs are not for you, don't ever go there. Nite mentions that it is training mode and that is correct. Why should a helpful vet be punished for going into a pub, and playing for either fun or helping out new players (by leading/example/answering questions/etc.)? All I see for most hard core vets is what i see for people who random, they just suicide before victory, since most vets at that level don't need the XP or medals in many cases, and the credits are basically non-existent. Removing the CP gain in recruit will already go a long way towards curbing CP gain overall.
    Pretty much agree with all these.
    This is same as before, agree.
    Disagree on this one, arc reactor is a powerhouse item at .33 energy regen. This buff will be majorly powerful on very specific classes (Demotank/Engie come to mind).
    This one is good, but a smaller amount, 5% is a LOT, worth as much as a talent point to a decent player and to good players, 5% is godly (IMO).
    I like the sight radius bonus, but the crit is overused. Once this is achieved, some players will have 3 overlapping critical strikes (Skill/Stats/CP). Honestly I don't know what to put in its place, because at this point, most major bonuses are covered somewhere else (other CP you have mentioned or in weapon mods)
    The only issue I have with the bonus talent this high, (and for me it is a minor one), is that it will have 2 results in my mind. Either we get what Ozy was aiming for originally, less dependence on CP and people just playing normally and branching out. Or we get the extreme opposite, people who totally commit to 1/2 classes for that CP. Case in point, see Nite as Nuker and Kith as tanker, both (last I remember) with over 100 CP in each respective class. It will create an even bigger divide of those who have CP and those who do not.
    Overall I agree with this, pubstars don't dominate pubs with CP power classes, and hardcore players such as myself will easily rack up CP quickly.
  15. Zuriel

    Zuriel Well-Known Member

    RE: CP

    Yes, I vehemently feel recruit mode shouldn't have CP gain nor decay. Don't punish pub players, and don't discourage experienced players from playing with fresh players.
  16. Blaqk
    • Development Team
    • Webmaster/Liaison

    Blaqk NOTD Staff: Bugs, Pugs, and Scruggs

    RE: CP

    Kith by increasing the cp requirement for the double talent you're exacerbating the problem, not fixing it. Instead of forcing someone exclusively into 2-4 roles, you've just shoved someone into one class they are only allowed to play in organized games ever. The CP system either needs to go, or be nerfed to death. No double talent.
  17. ArcanePariah
    • Development Team
    • Map Developer

    ArcanePariah Miracle Worker

    RE: CP

    Ok this may not possible to code, but it occurred to me, (as demonstrated by ArcV) that a STARTING extra talent throws the game for a curve. What if the extra talent was a postponed one, say on getting a T3? Yes it will promptly let you fill out your class, but since for the large majority of the game you will not have it, the gameplay will be not as dependent on it.[hr]
    I can sort of agree with this, but my only concern with removing CP bonus talent all together is that removes any incentive to play any class of any kind all that well. Sure you would have people who gravitate towards a given class because it what they like to play, but since I won't have CP to look forward too, might as well random every game and work with that, even in "organized" NM games.

    From what I can see, the heart of the matter seems to be whether we want people to generalists, being somewhat better at some classes but being decent/good at all of them, or have them become specialists, decent good at some classes, bad at others (due to not playing them) and very experinceed/good with others (due to playing with them nearly exclusively).

    I personally prefer specialists, and the only time that is bad is when that specialty is not needed, which should never be the case. Got 3 people who are all expert OSOKers? Let them run as OSOK and adjust your gameplay around that reality. I know expeditionary should be baseline, but it is still only a medal, not the come all end all method to winning.
  18. Ramses II
    • Donator

    Ramses II Help, I can't change my title!

    RE: CP

    Yeah, the point is that it is no longer an advantage to have cp, but a disadvantage to not have it. higher difficulty modes are balanced to people with cp, meaning that if you have cp you are on a level playing field and if you don't you're going to make it a lot harder on your team.

    New players and those who want to play classes they don't normally play are at a severe disadvantage purely because they haven't farmed the expected 10 wins in that class.

    I'd like to have the +1 bonus talent at the start removed, other bonuses can remain as they are not as big a difference and can be completely ignored (similar to stat points).
  19. Zuriel

    Zuriel Well-Known Member

    RE: CP

    What.

    Then What's the point in training to be more skilled in a class? Just because you like it?

    Currently the game is manageable for people with 10 CP -> +1 bonus tp. But if the bonus were to be removed, there would be a gross imbalance. Really, the status quo is alright. Why make things unnecessarily difficult? The NM is there for people seeking challenge, and beyond that, play NM with sniper rifle only. That should be about as challenging as it can get.

    There is a fair mix, in each game, of people with CP in required classes and people without these CP. As such, the game is moderately challenging, yet playable by the vast majority.

    There is no need to remove the bonus talent.
  20. Ramses II
    • Donator

    Ramses II Help, I can't change my title!

    RE: CP

    If the bonus talent point is removed, nightmare will be balanced down to reasonable levels. You remember back when the starting level was switched from 0 to 1 and the leveling speed was slowed? This was done because people were leveling faster than they should have been with CP. If CP is removed the leveling speed would likely end up being increased slightly, or the xp share increased slightly to compensate.

    The bonus talent is just such a huge advantage that most of the balance changes since it was added have been affected by it. This makes the game unduly hard on those without CP, and normal difficulty for those with it.

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