Class Balance.

Discussion in 'NOTD Discussion' started by Shooz, Feb 5, 2012.

  1. Shooz
    • Donator

    Shooz NOTD Staff: Killjoy

    No better place to start than with SubComm, CE, and Pathfinder.

    Begin the ranting again gents.
  2. ArcanePariah
    • Development Team
    • Map Developer

    ArcanePariah Miracle Worker

    Subcomm has the main issue of having little if any skill synergy. His skills all seem to be one off effects thrown together. Perception needs to be dumped in favor of ANYTHING. HS is fine. Combat Harden is OK, but could use some revision. KMS also seems fine, but maybe something to distinguish it from simply being the expensive slow ammo efficient OSOK. Mind Meld is quirky, since it relies on the aggro priorities of the MC unit (MM on Slasher basically is worthless for tanking purposes).

    Combat Engie (I am biased, I play him heavily) seems fine from my point of view. IMA has its bugs with resetting on splash, but other then that, he plays his role well.

    Pathfinder, from what I've tested, is very powerful but horribly ammo inefficient. Using nothing but Pistol, even with the bounce attack, burns ammo like no tomorrow, it makes SMG look kind in comparison. Further testing is needed in this regard, And some balance be struck between powerful burst dps, limited by a (in his hands) a faster shooting MM rifle.
  3. DrawingDead

    DrawingDead Member

    Perception is useless because level 3 HS breaks cloaks with the additional 25%dmg increase
  4. Ramses II
    • Donator

    Ramses II Help, I can't change my title!

    KMS synergizes rather well with combat hardened. I suggest helmet cams from squad leader as a replacement for perception (works well with kms, mind meld, and precision nuking). Reduce range of HS to 8/14/20 and make helmet cams cause it to affect enemies in a 3/6/9 range around allies.
  5. Reaper

    Reaper Moderator/The Crimsonrine

    Perception is truly kinda useless. Its great to have increased sight range but its kind of excessive in terms of the fact that there is hardly a time and place where you will need or can even use that massive sight range while being on the move due to obstructions and being in tight places. On high ground its perfect but there are few instances where he has to be on highground.

    The Level 3 True Sight is defeated by Level 3 Heightened Senses working as a team detector in a large radius and unit spotter.

    Perception should maybe get toned to +1/+2/+3 increased sight range and gain another affect along with it.
  6. Ghost
    • Warden

    Ghost Warden

    Considering that only SubMM has air view (cone), maybe changing perception to something similar would still be possible without being a complete copy of the talent.

    1/2/3 base sight range, 0/1/2 air view in all directions or 180° frontal arc.
    0 air view on the first point to not make it too attractive to semi hybrid for the sake of air view.

    Might seem a tad weak, but it is a passive rather than an active and SubCo doesn't need any more sight range anyhow and yet another passive dps amplifier would be overkill.
  7. Lyanden

    Lyanden Well-Known Member

    I'm personally for merging the two
    giving HeightenedSenses a passive increase in sight range
    and retaining its current active effect of making enemies squishy and revealed when used
    (the name fits as well I think)

    and making a new talent to replace perception.

    My reasoning behind this:

    the OpsMando's Tier 1 talents are what boost his leveling rate at the game's early stages and later on

    provides the team noticeable mid to late game DPS from the two comboing and being kept up by the wrist cutting

    This tells me (and I think everyone agrees) that the OpsMando is built with the kill hogging mindset early on in order to do his job well later in the game


    At first glance we can surmise that the SubtMando's Tier 1 talents are also potentially capable of providing early game leveling aid by the increased sight range from perception giving him 1st crack at targets with a sniper rifle

    (note: do not use a gauss with it coz yuck ammo inefficiency while a flamer + increased sight range is just a big ? in my mind)

    and weakening targets to die faster with HS.

    digging into it deeper (w/ experiments on my part)

    in games where Commandos are actually required though, the "first crack" provided by Perception (even if we remove the sight range obstructions from the equation) will likely only weaken the now high HP enemys and not kill them, allowing allies to more likely score the killing blow instead.

    HS on the other hand gives an equal chance to everyone landing the killing blow at the cost of the commando's energy especially if he spams it in waves.

    This to me implies that the SubtMando's Tier 1 are more self sacrifice for the team's benefit,

    an opposite to the OpsMando which is all well and good

    The problem here is that 
    the two talents (perception and HS) do not come anywhere near the efficiency of the Adren+Surgstrike Combo
    (which in addition to their functional synergy can also Combo with each other)
    hence my suggestion to merge the two into a single talent.

    OpsMando selfish but efficient
    SubtMando self sacrifice and not efficient

    HeightenedSenses needs to be more spammable. Dependence on HS makes perception ignored though, so merge the two and add a talent that betters the tree.

    What to best replace Perception with however eludes me at present.

    I suppose the mindlink clone, helmet cam can suffice but I would rather not since it's a clone of another talent.

    Only thing that comes to mind is perhaps a talent that reduces CD on all the mando's talents (no class has that yet as well).

    If that's too OP as a Tier 1 talent, then switch that with Combat Hardened so that it's Tier 2.

    Should synergize well with KMS and the MC as well.

    But like I said, what best to replace perception eludes me still and this is just a
    "if you really want me to give an alternative to perception right here and now"

    Lord knows what an over powered monster a dual tree mando would be with a CD reducing talent.


    After thinking about it some more
    IF you think the CD reducing talent is good however and C-Hardened becomes Tier1, I foresee it giving the SubtMando 2 Paths to take in the early game.

    Take 1 C-Hardened and 3 HS to use HS moderately

    Take 3 C-Hardened and 1 HS to spam HS

    After that it'll make a semi tough decision on whether a team wants 3 C-Hardened + 3 HS for massed enemy debuffing with a further choice on KMS vs CD reduction or

    3 C-Hardened, 1 HS, 2 KMS, 2 CD reduce for priority target removal in favor of massed enemy debuffing.

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