Chemical Expert: Virus Removal Laser

Discussion in 'NOTD Discussion' started by Kith, Mar 26, 2013.

  1. Kith
    • Development Team
    • Designer

    Kith NOTD Staff: Anti-Fun Wizard Skeleton

    I wish I had caught this earlier, but I admit to being purposefully inattentive in regards to the Chemical Expert for a variety of reasons. The VRL is bonkers powerful, and it needs to be toned down. Badly.

    A full list of the effects:
    150 damage to enemies (no damage to allies)
    +50 damage for every ailment the enemy has
    5 second stun
    100% increased damage taken
    25% increased attack speed and movespeed for 10 seconds for allies caught in the laser
    Removes all ailments from allies caught in the laser

    I've gotta say, there just seems to be too much positive here. There are no drawbacks to using this skill despite the Ground Support tree being themed around "pros and cons". There's no intelligence to it - the player can spam it every time it's off cooldown and they're rewarded every time. I'm not satisfied with that, so I suggest we do one of the following:

    Remove the stun.

    Remove the increased damage.

    Replace the stun with a 30% to 40% slow and tone down the increased damage to 25% or 50%.

    Remove the "safety" of the skill, and allow it to damage (and apply debuffs to) allies.

    I'm open to alternate opinions, as long as VRL gets nerfed. It opens the door wide open to Boss Shaming and it's openly available to the campaign that has the most powerful anti-boss character in the game.
  2. HipHopDragon
    • Warden

    HipHopDragon Warden

    1. It has another effect: it Removes ailments from teammates, which you basicly remove too by enabling friendly fire.

    2. "... and tone down the increased damage to 25% to 50%."
    Your talking about the 25% buff for allies here?

    3. Im completly lost at who you mean with most powerful anti-boss character because everyone i can think of is not one of the sec exclusive classes.

    After your nervs it is:
    150 damage to enemies (no damage to allies)
    +50 damage for every ailment the enemy has
    Replace the stun with a 30% to 40% slow and tone down the increased damage to 25% to 50%.
    25% increased attack speed and movespeed for 10 seconds for allies caught in the laser (is this still in? because with friendly fire its useless too)
    Removes ailments from teammates
    Deals Friendly fire (including debuffs)

    Is this correct? because im at a loss of words then if your seriously proposing this as a t3 spell.
  3. Kith
    • Development Team
    • Designer

    Kith NOTD Staff: Anti-Fun Wizard Skeleton

    1. Noted.

    2. I mean increased damage taken.

    3. Technician. He's got high DPS and insane durability. Not the highest of either, but he still out-dpses most characters by the simple virtue of being able to sit on an enemy's face and beat it to death with a Crowbar while Knifing and having the Crawler Drones go at it as well. I consider him to be the most powerful because he can do these things with considerable comfort rather than the constant micro required of any other class (excluding the Assault, but the Assault doesn't get the damage boost).

    You read the proposal poorly, by the way. I said one of the following, not all. So it's either remove the stun, remove the increased damage, nerf the stun into a slow and nerf the increased damage, or remove the beneficial effects and make it be entirely harmful to allies.
  4. HipHopDragon
    • Warden

    HipHopDragon Warden

    Somehow i completly missed the one, which made it look like a giant overkill, sorry for that.

    Explaining why tech is definitly not the best anti-boss class would derail this discussion so i will just note that there are a lot of classes which are a lot more usefull to have for a boss fight.


    Now to the actually discussion, on EU VRL is used for 2 reasons. Maintly the +100%, which is just a insane debuff if used correctly. And removing ailments because we dont use a medic in sec.

    The +100% is extrem because if used with penace one class will deal 400% dmg for a short time (while everyone else still gets 200%), done correct thats enough to severely damage if not outright kill most bosses. Which is why i think that is the part making VRL so overpowered and needs to be toned down, either removing it or atleast reducing it. Nerving something else about the skill will make it harder to use (friendly fire) or remove some utillity but it wont change how strong it is. To compensate the nerv a bit i would increase its range and/or width to make it a bit easier to combine some of its effects.
  5. Mirage
    • Donator

    Mirage ಠ_ಠ What are you looking at?

    I'd suggest NOT doing
    'Remove the "safety" of the skill, and allow it to damage (and apply debuffs to) allies.'

    Because its a laser meant to remove the zombie virus so it really... Can't hurt allies?

    Or if at all, remove debuffs from them and THEN blind them for a few seconds (it is a laser after all?)
  6. Kith
    • Development Team
    • Designer

    Kith NOTD Staff: Anti-Fun Wizard Skeleton

    There are a wide variety of medical treatments that are meant to remove infections that, if overdone, will outright kill a person. Chemotherapy, antibiotics, pretty much any prescription medication, X-Rays also stand to be mentioned.

    No, that's fine. Unfortunately the dark background and gray text makes bolding somewhat difficult to see sometimes. I made it more notable.

    I consider him to be the most powerful by virtue of being able to just turn on MOTM and right click a boss and then go get something to drink and come back and find that I've dealt a significant amount of damage with little to no personal danger. Differing opinions, and all that.

    I'll be honest with you, I've been really tempted to nix the ailment cure, or at least impose some kind of penalty or restriction. I know it doesn't heal like a Medic can, but there are Medkits abound to solve that problem. I figured that would be taking away too much defensive utility on a support class though, so I didn't go with it.

    Easily the most problematic area of VRL is the 100% damage increase, but coming in close second is the 5 second stun because that's 5 seconds of free damage. That's why I'm personally more inclined to change the stun to a slow and tone down the increased damage so it doesn't lose those unique disabling factors but it does lose the ridiculous over-strength.
  7. Ability
    • Development Team
    • NOTD Creator

    Ability NOTD Creator

    Agree with reducing the increased damage. Likely from +100% to +50%. Any violent objections?
  8. Kith
    • Development Team
    • Designer

    Kith NOTD Staff: Anti-Fun Wizard Skeleton

    I'd say we need to go a bit further than that. You're getting 5 seconds of "free DPS", with a DPS potential of

    100% base + 50% increased damage taken + 25% increased attack speed + 100% from Penance = 275% of base dps, not even counting damage bonuses from Ammo Mods/Class Mods/Class skills.

    Like I said with the "four choices", either the increased damage should be removed entirely or it should be nerfed in tandem with the stun. Having 5 seconds of free DPS on a character with that many damage bonuses is a little bonkers.
  9. HipHopDragon
    • Warden

    HipHopDragon Warden

    If you have such a problem with the stun, remove it. I dont think anyone would even miss it.

    And your dps calculations are completly off.
    Penace works multiplicative, so does ias boost.
    (100%base+100%penace)*150%VRL*125%IAS=375%
    But generally its impossible to get the ias during important fights because of the range/width so its 300%

    edit: dat grammar
  10. Kith
    • Development Team
    • Designer

    Kith NOTD Staff: Anti-Fun Wizard Skeleton

    Percentages evade me, my apologies. Still, if anything, that's a bigger argument for it to be nerfed.
  11. Ability
    • Development Team
    • NOTD Creator

    Ability NOTD Creator

    - VRL's damage increase on enemy targets reduced from +100% to +20%. Stun duration reduced from 5 to 4 seconds. (Kithrixx)

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