Change the double talent points from intelligence

Discussion in 'NOTD Discussion' started by Ramses II, May 6, 2012.

  1. Ghost
    • Warden

    Ghost Warden

    EU uses Comm, Rifle, MM (usually Assassination) and Assa for dps. Rec, Med, Demo as support.
    Engi is preference, but mostly field.
    That's EC with exped setup. We mostly skip the MM, Assa and Engi though and get say a 2nd comm or more rifles.

    For Alpha its usually 1-2 Orderbats, 1 FA med, 1 SRec, rest whatever they want.
  2. Blaqk
    • Development Team
    • Webmaster/Liaison

    Blaqk NOTD Staff: Bugs, Pugs, and Scruggs

    Settled in at work. It's a half-day for me so after I get home I'll flesh out a revised xp share system that I'm milling over.
  3. Hongbearr

    Hongbearr New Member

    I don't think the XP re-balance has anything to do with the original issues about the DT bonuses. While it might mitigate the imbalance between DPS and support classes, those who are lucky enough to get double or triple DTs will still be "over-powered" regardless of any balancing.

    There is a book called "The Drunkard's Walk" which explores the psychology of randomness. The basic premises is that the effect of randomness is usually misunderstood because it's counter intuitive. It explains why we have a tendency to think "if I flip a coin 3 times and it comes up heads all three times, then most likely next coin flip will come up tail" and why seemingly impossible events such as a Virgina woman (interestingly her name is Virginia Fink") winning mega lotto twice in the same day is possible.

    IMHO: we are overestimating the effect of someone getting more than 1 DTs. While it is powerful when someone gets both T3s by end game, it happens so rarely that it's an exception to the game, rather than the rule. Over the thousands of games being played, that one game when it does happen really doesn't amount to too much except in that one game. A simple cap of "1 DT maximum" would have been enough to remove that imbalance.

    Assuming the DT bonus is capped at 1, the original issue still remains: does receiving your T3 early break the game? Statistically, with 9 Int, you have 1 in 4 chance to receive your T3 at level 8. With 8 player in game who has maxed Int, the chance that someone will receive a DT is 90%. Receiving T3 early is not as significant when it happens on a non-DPS class, i.e., medic or recon. When it happens on a DPS class such as OpsMando, it does give that class a significant advantage, but only for a very short period of time. During that short window when you have your T3 and rest of the team does not, you have an obvious advantage, but after that, your advantage becomes "I've got an extra point in the other tree".

    That being said, however, I do think chance for DT should be removed from Int, because currently, players are putting points in INT for a chance to get DTs, and the primary purpose for the Int stat, which is energy related, becomes secondary.
  4. Ramses II
    • Donator

    Ramses II Help, I can't change my title!

    This would be true if it weren't for the fact that an early game DT on a DPS class will snowball into 2, 3, 4 levels above the other classes by the time they reach their T3 if you let it.
  5. ArcturusV

    ArcturusV New Member

    Not even just a case of T3. Though often that is the case. Having one more point in even T1, say Surgical Strike or Adrenaline than you normally would have that point is a huge advantage in and of itself.

    Though I will say that as an OpsComm, I'm not Niteshade. I am by no means Expert. But I do know enough to know that the difference in leveling power between 1 SS and 2 SS at the same level is quite different.

    This applies to other Damage roles more or less. Having a level 3 X1 when you would normally still be using a 1 or a 2. Extra "It's Me Again". Level 2 vs Level 3 Monofiliment Cartridge, etc.

    It's not just getting to T3. It's the benchmarks on the way to T3 where it snowballs.
  6. Hongbearr

    Hongbearr New Member

    The snowball effect is over stated.

    In some runs, OpsMando for example, will have perhaps 2 levels above some other classes WITHOUT DTs, especially after domes. In Alpha, arty FO will often get their T3s way before any other class does. It's the nature of those classes. We are too focused on how unfair to the rest of the team this is, but forgetting the fact that it actually benefits the team unless it is abused.

    Early DT does have an effect on the rate of leveling, but the amount of experience required for leveling increases, so the effect of DT becomes less and less significant as you and your team levels up, not more. If someone gets a DT early, then yes, the effect is significant AT THAT TIME. There is no difference between level 9 and level 9 and 1/2. And the difference between level 9 and level 10 is minimal because the additional one point in the other tree isn't going to suddenly break the game.

    IMHO when someone gets a DT early, he will gain more experience for a while and get to T3 a few minutes earlier and that's about it. The only snowballing is when someone receives 3-4 DTs and have T2 or T3s in the 2nd tree.

    I support the decision to remove the DTs, or at least I think it should be capped at 1. But my reasoning is that it makes the Int stat superior than all other stats when it shouldn't have. There should be no reason for any non-energy dependent classes to put stat points in Int, but everyone does it for the DTs.
  7. Lyanden

    Lyanden Well-Known Member

    I support the decision to remove the DTs, or at least I think it should be capped at 1. But my reasoning is that it makes the Int stat superior than all other stats when it shouldn't have. There should be no reason for any non-energy dependent classes to put stat points in Int, but everyone does it for the DTs.

    +1
  8. Arturia

    Arturia Well-Known Member

    Which classes are non-energy dependent classes?
  9. ArcturusV

    ArcturusV New Member

    Protection Assault. Rifleman to an extent before they lowered the regen, as it was balanced for energy over time rather than max energy. Combat Engineer is fairly energy concern free. Pathfinder is more about Energy Regen than Max energy. Artillery FO doesn't really feel any pressure on energy.
  10. Arturia

    Arturia Well-Known Member

    I find it preferential to have a larger energy Pool.

    On Protection Assault it means more time stunning & Taunting. And for some more fun in Newbie Mode, by constantly stunning the queen and having a Nukemando, you can take her to first shriek with most people able to do some sort of damage, without even have tanked her, just by constantly stunning her.

    As for Pre-Change Rifleman, it allowed you an extra 1~2 traps without having to wait for a recharge.

    Combat Engineer may as well be considered an extreme exception if you are to ask me. Only 2 skills that cost energy, and one of them shouldn't ever have to be used more than three times. (If you need to build more than 1 X-1 per level/rank of the skill, then its more of a matter of not microing too well or using it as a suicide dummy), and BHS which has a low energy requirement, and his energy requirement got lowered even more with Overdrive being activated from the Guardian Only.

    I've never used a pure Artillery FO, in Alpha, just a Mr. Random in Easy Company, so my input wouldn't be that valuable on it. Only time you would have an energy problem there anyways would be laying down as much shit as you can on Queen or Hades. I'm not aware of any instances other than that, where an FO would be trying to lay every shell down he has.

    As for Pathfinder, Having a higher energy capacity permits even more extended usage of skills; no different then any other class, but this should also be noted that I have no experience in Using the Pathfinder in his intended Story Line, though 45 extra energy means a jumper can use his ultimate, and all 5 jumps, then sprint out with some left to spare.

    If anything, I find an extra 45 energy Universally useful, Especially for Combat Casters, and most tanks alike. Combat Engineer pretty much has lost a need for energy in all senses, and I feel that should be looked into. I don't think there is another class that has such a high amount of energy, yet so few skills to actually use it.
  11. ArcturusV

    ArcturusV New Member

    With a protection assault I would always go for Endurance over Intelligence. And if I had max Endurance, go into extra Strength. Means you don't have to Taunt and Stun as much and plays into your natural strengths. Though the point stands that the extra energy isn't really vital. Stun and Taunt have low enough costs compared to his recharge that even without points in Intelligence you're usually not hosed for energy during a fight.
  12. Zuriel

    Zuriel Well-Known Member

    When I play opsmando, sometimes I go 9 end instead of int. The HP regen can be translated to extra energy after all.
  13. Miracle
    • Development Team
    • CN/TW Liaison

    Miracle NOTD Staff: Assistant of many things

    Instead of one talent point which pretty much means one extra level (better actually, since you don't even need extra experience to reach the next level), what about something similar to endurance, like chance to get extra experience (depending your character level) every five minutes?
  14. Zuriel

    Zuriel Well-Known Member

    I like it.

    Or maybe intel grants like a 0.075% chance to ohko all mobs except massive, heroic etc. Mainly normal zombies, zoombies, devs etc, but no agrons, slashers, infestors and bosses.

    If the % is too big, you can suggest a smaller %.

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