Change the double talent points from intelligence

Discussion in 'NOTD Discussion' started by Ramses II, May 6, 2012.

  1. Ability
    • Development Team
    • NOTD Creator

    Ability NOTD Creator

    Intel will not have an improved energy regeneration rate feature, no matter how small. It is too useful and will turn it into a must have stat point. I'm fine if we need to tweak the Intel DT chance mechanics - if enough people feel strongly about it.
  2. ArcturusV

    ArcturusV New Member

    An old article I recalled reading this. Granted it's about something else quite different, but I feel there is a key concern buried in there that is applicable to this design quandry. ... aily/mr172

    In particular I'm talking halfway down, as they discus Random Chance in gaming scenarios.

    "Let me digress to quickly talk about the psychological impact of randomness. Humans, by their nature, dislike adversity. But what really upsets them is not understanding why something happened. Victims (or relatives of victims) of crimes spend a great deal of time trying to understand why the crime happened. Having an answer, even if it's one you don't like, is actually more preferable to not knowing. Why? Several reasons. First, the known is always less disturbing than the unknown. This is why good horror writers don't go into great detail on their horrors. They'd rather let you fill in the blanks because they know that you can scare yourself easier than they can scare you. Second, humans like closure. Knowing why something happened allows them to move on. Unknown factors keep them stuck in the moment."

    By the way, that quote is one of the reasons I hate the goddamned Troll Spawns, as it hits very close to home. Particularly during say, Eos, and one of the Slasher wave slashers just pops up right next to you and instantly kills you. You lost because of something that was purely random and (Barring Korean Blood and Souls), out of your control in a real, meaningful way.

    Now this example he quoted talks about negative Random impacts. But it also cuts the other way. Lets look at the examples, like he did, with a focus on Positive Random Outcomes:

    Situation #1: A million lives!

    Cerberus is bearing down on the team in a Nightmare Alpha Company run. Your Flamethrower is a tool, and when Cerberus entered his Invulnerability ran instead of holding his ground to tank him. Cerberus is now bearing down on your OpsComm who has over 1900 rating.

    Result 1: Endurance, Bitches!

    You gained a couple of bonus lives over the course of the game. And when you noticed the Flamethrower being a moron, you paused the game and told him to get the fuck back and do his job. Unpause, and Cerberus chews you up. The Flamethrower has no way to control Aggro, so you lose a life, go Badly Injured, and during this state he reaggros on the Flamethrower who is now doing is damned job.

    Reaction: A bit excited, it was annoying but you knew that, barring a random quirk of luck that allowed him to bypass lives (knocked you to 53 then to -2?) that you were going to be okay. It was expected, but it was only expected because you were lucky earlier in the game. You realize that your survival had zero to do with your own skill, or your teammates catching you for the save. In the back of your mind you know that the only reason you survived was just due to the proverbial flip of a coin earlier in the game. Likely you are EXTREMELY pissed at the Flamethrower and will bear a dislike for him for quite a bit. You don't come out of the survival feeling good, but instead with the sense of frustration and annoyance that makes you feel like your fate was completely out of your hands.

    Result 2: Extra Lives? What's that?

    You are burnt toast, and you know it. You are immediately annoyed at the Flamethrower, you pause the game, yell at him and tell him to do the one goddamned job that a Flamethrower has to do this entire storyline. Now while it's paused though you are looking at your team to save you. Rifleman with Repulse? Recon being able to hit you with Protect (And the Stun that it comes with) before you die? Nanotech Medic with Mindblast? You likely come up with a plan, count it down, and roll with it. You may survive, you may not as Cerberus Stunlocks you. It depends entirely on how your team reacts.

    Reaction: Now instead of feeling kind of empty and hallow about it, realizing that your fate was tied entirely to the flip of a coin at some point, you reached out to your allies to come up with a plan. If they managed to save you, you feel good about it, and about your teammates. Your Rifleman was on the ball, your Recon kicked some ass, your medic had balls and knew his shit, didn't fear Cerberus irrationally. You end up with a good impression of your teammates, which is a much better outcome than the previous one. If you fail? Well, you're still damned pissed at the Flamethrower, and rightly so. You also get pissed that you had 9 Endurance speced and didn't get any bonus lives. You feel cheated because that's THE REASON you used that stat and the one time you needed it to save you, it did absolutely nothing at all for you.

    Situation #2: I'm a modern Major General!

    You're playing a Fortitude Demolitions in Easy Company, with 9 Intelligence set down. You are the primary tank for your team and their playstyle is counting on you to do the job for key segments that they would otherwise shit a brick over.

    Result 1: Knowledge of Animal, Vegetable, Mineral!

    You got some early Bonus Talents. It was entirely lucky and you realize it. Maybe cracked a joke about how you are karmically fucked now by the DT Curse. You reach Time to Die by a point where your team is just getting their second tier 2 talent point, and start utterly dominating the game. You nigh solo the Airlock (Thanks to Engineer/Recon support for energy), you rip apart Erebos Mark I, go on a Shotgun Rampage throughout most of the post Erebos Waves and Gargoyle attacks.

    Reaction: You feel good about it. You rolled the dice and you won out. Not that there was any real cost associated with losing either, you wanted that extra energy anyway. But it has made you the goddamned Rock Star of your team. You got to snowball up and ended up about 3 levels higher than your teammates that are struggling to hit Tier 3 before Erebos Mark II shows up. Your team may resent your hot dogging it. But they also realize that they are now stuck at a point where they REQUIRE you to continue to carry the team because they are far too weak themselves to do it without. So there is a bit of jealousy and resentment. They think of you not as a Good player, but as a Lucky player, even if you are in fact playing well.

    Result 2: Well... fuck...

    You are, as playing a tank class, having a bit of trouble necessarily keeping up with your teammates, particularly as Hard Camping moments has left you as a key "Last Chance" stop from getting the team wiped by spawns coming towards them, but you haven't really had the chance to grip and rip to make up the XP difference. You're a level or two lower than your teammates and feeling it keenly. You don't end up with key abilities by the time you need them. And often you are begging your team to help you just go out and whore up a wave in order to make up the difference. You only have barely reached tier 2 for the Airlock. Lack Time to Die for Erebos, haven't blacked out the tree by the time the Gargoyles hit.

    Reaction: You realize that the challenges are all at a point where, if you had that one lucky bonus talent you would have been able to just dominate them. But you always feel behind the curve, particularly as you have played games before with the Bonus Talents and feel the lack of them now. You get frustrated, you're cursing every time "+1 Talent Point from Intelligence" doesn't pop up on a level up. You're begging your team's SubMM for the Stinger so you can whore up some XP from the Eggs/Post Erebos Waves. In the end you feel carried. Even though that may not have necessarily been the case, merely because you know what it is like to be a winner at the Level Up lottery. Even if you intellectually (Ha!) realize that the chance is really quite small you still feel frustrated as you go through an entire game, or two, or five, without a single bonus talent being granted. Particularly with the CP change you feel that it's "Necessary" to get a bonus talent or you are going to be insanely screwed and behind where you think you should be. It becomes a nagging sensation in the back of your mind and you find yourself dwelling too much on a less than 5% long shot popping up.

    Insane ramblings, done now.
  3. Blaqk
    • Development Team
    • Webmaster/Ops

    Blaqk NOTD Staff: Operations and Web


  4. ArcturusV

    ArcturusV New Member

    Hmm... not sure if that's a good wow or a bad wow...
  5. SirGalahad

    SirGalahad New Member

    It's a bit too specific, but you make your point. I would like to add as an off-topic aside that Rifleman Repulse has not affected invulnerable units for a while now and therefore would not have saved that Commando.
  6. Zuriel

    Zuriel Well-Known Member

    I don't get your point, Arc.

    I feel silly.
  7. ArcturusV

    ArcturusV New Member

    The point being, that having Random Effects that are beyond the control of a player can be fun. There is some excitement and drama in the unknown. However, this shouldn't be tied down to something that is so gamebreaking.

    See for example: Random Newbie Mode Mineshaft Events. Other than the Trolling that was Sheep or Huggers necessarily on a team that had never seen them before, it was a good use of Random Outcomes in the map. Every time you say that "rumbling emits from the mineshaft" or something you had no idea what was coming up. Huggers? Do I need my Flamethrower? Gauss Rifle because it's Zues and Leto and I need long range power? Use my M45 to help pick off Infested marines while teammates focus down nydus worms? It's random, it gives you a sense of the unknown and momentary excitement. It however doesn't wholly determine the outcome of the game or have a serious effect on it's outcome (Beyond dying because your team didn't know how to handle Huggers or something).

    The Intelligence Talents and Endurance Lives were an example of bad use of Random elements in design. The random rewards not only are very low probability outcomes (Turning them from measurable risk/reward chance to random mana from heaven miracle chances), but also had gamebreaking effects, particularly the bonus talents, and result in general low player satisfaction as Luck becomes as much a factor to various victories as player skill.

    While getting lucky tends to provide a temporary high. It eventually results in a deeper low point in a player's mood as they realize that they are not actually good, just Lucky. If Luck goes against a player, but they succeed despite it, it gives them not only a momentary high, but a lasting feeling that as a player they are progressing and reaching a pinnacle.

    An example of that last point would be say, Blaqk's story about how as an old Mind Ops he managed to not only get a bit of bad luck with timing on Force Push and Spawns, but the epic save he pulled off to get the unlucky Pathfinder out of harm's way.

    Now, one point I only slightly touched on in my post above, is that the current random stat bonuses aren't even a measure of Risk vs. Reward. It's a Pure Reward vs. No Reward but still general benefits.

    Another Example/Explanation:

    Take the Combat Rifleman's current tier one, Rapid Fire and Critical Strikes. Taken alone (Forget about Grenades, Repulse, Bloodlust, and Precision Shot making Critical Strikes the better choice). Rapid Fire provides a clear, consistent, and dependable increase in DPS via attack speed. You can measure it, you can count on it. You know exactly what you can expect. Now with Critical Strikes you get Risk vs. Reward. In any individual firefight against any target you might luck out and put him down at half the speed it would normally take. Or you might gain zero net effect from the talent. It tends to average out over the game as a whole, sure. But you're putting up the Reward of getting Double Damage on any particular attack with the risk of basically having a wasted talent point on any individual attack where Critical Strikes doesn't active.

    Right now, Endurance and Intelligence don't have that. The +5 Energy is potent and you typically want it anyway. The bonus talent is just a free, random, potentially game breaking benefit you can get for zero potential risk. As the DemoTank in the example said "Hell I was going to do it anyway because I need the energy to tank".
  8. Blaqk
    • Development Team
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    Blaqk NOTD Staff: Operations and Web

    Continued wow.
  9. Ghost
    • Warden

    Ghost Warden

    Whether you lose a life or die outright is pretty random too based on current hp, damage modifiers and a tad of luck.

    So you could argue that giving people extra lives in the first place and they die outright would lead to a big low, therefore we should not have any lives?

    Like I said, I can see DT from intel getting toned down in total number because having 3+ is gamebreaking, but I don't see why getting bonus lives from endurance is bad. Its rare, yes, but most of the time it won't be a factor except if you happen to have a streak of bad luck where this good luck of getting a bonus life may just balance the scales.

    I doubt many/any people put 9 in endurance just because of bonus lives, but mainly for the regen, ailment resistance and weight reduction. The bonus lives is just that, a bonus. You don't depend on it, but its a "nice to have" which isn't hurting the team as someone whoring xp would be.

    For the DT, only those who are new or unreasonable would curse "i would have won if I had a dt!!!111". Most people just get a DT, think o nice, and move on. In an organized game, the person with the DT will then be mindful tolet others get their T3 in time too rather than whore 2 T3s himself. Because face it, those people have no place in an organized game.
  10. Blaqk
    • Development Team
    • Webmaster/Ops

    Blaqk NOTD Staff: Operations and Web

    I'm with Ghost on this one. I'd be happy capping the quantity of double talents per game (1 is preferred), but removing it and extra lives outright really isn't going to "improve" anything. Honestly, it wont hinder anything either. I'd even go so far as to suggest that removing bonus lives would not be worth the community backlash since we gain little to nothing from doing so.
  11. ArcanePariah
    • Development Team
    • Map Developer

    ArcanePariah Miracle Worker

    I would also have to agree with Ghost/Blaqk, when has DT's ever made or broke a game? Honestly, when I get DT's, like Ghost said, just means I can just chillax earlier while my rest of my team can whore a bit more and get slightly faster T3's. Sure you get those insanely aberrant "I got 3 dt's in a row", and you have tier 3 by like military base, but what T3 that early fundamentally alters the game? Only one the remotely comes to mind is early Nexus, which permits faster zoo buildup, but beyond that most T3's are whore related skills (Armageddon/Bloodlust/Nuke/TTD/MasterSub,Marksman/Overdrive/etc.) or pure support (Refresher/Restore/The Horror/Drone), none of which significantly impact the game before they are needed. They all do make the immediate impact IF USED, but to do so almost certainly screws your own teams leveling, which is to say, your not being a team player. Say an opcomm has nuke by airlock, good nuker will NOT use it at all on mobs, why would he? Just whores even more kills to someone who doesn't need it, the rest of the team does.

    Since teams are not remotely (as far as I can see) basing any strategy around DT's (having a given T3 by point X), getting the DT's becomes a nice "Oh cool my team can level more" and... not much else. Almost no T3 will bail a team out of bad situation, especially given most of the "bail them out/lifesaving" skills are tier 1/2's (OSOK/Mono/Escape/Traps/Boom headshot/nano shield/Pshot/Tower stuns/taunts/look).
  12. Lord NiteShade
    • Wiki Founder
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    Lord NiteShade NOTD Staff: Wiki Founder/TeamSpeak Admin

    Just remove the stupid percentage chance based bonuses, and add more appropriate ones. It's not hard, it doesnt take much time, and it doesnt take much effort. This thread wreaks of worthless excuses.
  13. ArcanePariah
    • Development Team
    • Map Developer

    ArcanePariah Miracle Worker

    Am I to understand that basically any chance based bonus is worthless/bad/unbalenced?

    While I appreciate that they may have unintended effects on game balance, I do like having them as a way for even a noobish/low XP player to have similar bonuses to me at sky high XP/maxed out CP/maxed out medals. It makes the game more interesting in my opinion. I'm not entirely sure why they would be considered stupid. As much people may hate various troll things (brood from the sky, formerly instant appearing spawns), I do like having SOME pure random stuff that can happen and make things interesting, as opposed to the current completely tamed, controlled situation where everything is so predictable. Things like the alternate spawns of airlock or comms in Apollo are what im referring to, where you can employ similar strategies but you have to adjust to the situation. Also if we removed any chance based bonus, I'd argue to remove any variablity of the seth drop, they are wildly varying in terms of gameplay impact (Getting a stinger vs HMG vs 3 H3 cans has very different impact on the game).

    I just feel small random rewards are not a bad for a game overall. The extra lives are nice to have, same with DT's and if we feel they are too powerful, just limit how many you can get in a game, which retains the nice to have part but doesn't degenerate into someone by chance becoming mr god mode.
  14. ArcturusV

    ArcturusV New Member

    There's good use of Random, and bad use of random in game design.

    To be honest anything that requires an infinitesimally small chance in order to be "balanced", is generally a bad use of Random. The very fact that it's considered "Balanced" because it has almost no chance of actually occurring by the rules of probability says how unbalanced the actual reward for it is. Yes, this means I am also including things like "Kenny dropped a Shiva".

    Or to think in traditional RPGs, things like the Instant Death Magic Spells, which only have something like a 10% chance to work on even normal enemies, and what bosses aren't immune to it tend to have it at something like a 1-2% chance. That is a factor of bad design. Most RPGs with them you just sit there looking at the spell slot that is taken up by Death and go "what a waste", as it never actually works when you would want an Instant Death move to work. And even when it COULD have worked, you end up having to use it 6 times then just realize you could have done the same thing by chucking fireballs.

    The alternate spawns you list are a good use of Random in games. Zoombie Ambush (Which I think should have an increased chance of happening as it almost never occurs right now) vs. Agron Pain Train in the Airlock. Seth Drops are... okay. I mean yeah, people will bitch and moan if they didn't get the Stinger, we've all seen it. But the HMG isn't that bad. It alters the tactics you use and who on your team is likely to benefit. It doesn't THAT drastically impact the game. Only mode where it's really mattered all that much is Apollo Security Team, and that's a factor of letting the Sex Ops/Tech whore up as much as possible... which is more of a concern for that one storyline in particular and the nature of it's challenges and demands on the team than a concern for random drops.
  15. Ghost
    • Warden

    Ghost Warden

    I realize your argument is all about game design and streamlining, but we can't apply standard game design to every single game. Every single game merits its own mechanics and unique points, including NOTD.

    The argument that I don't think really has been delivered is why would you want to remove X other than "I think it is bad design because it involved chance". The chance for lives and DTs is small, yes, but as AP and others pointed out, getting them doesn't make you a god and doesn't make you win the game. Team play is what does it.
    You can have tons of DTs like we had in some games previously and still wipe because something didn't work out or someone messes up. In a single player game, sure, getting extra goodies by chance makes the game maybe too easy because its balanced around you alone. In a 8player game, you getting a bonus life or DT doesn't change much at all.

    NOTD is a team game, PvE not PvP. Therefore random chances aren't a bad thing compared to competitive games where people will rage and cry if a chance didn't proc. And face it, who wants to play NOTD if it is so stale as to not have randomness and little gems like this? Another NM run all the same won't bring out any emotions other than boredom after a while.

    And finally, does the chance of an extra life or DT really bother people that much? Do you see endless rage on the forums or in game? Do people ruin organized games because they got/didn't get a DT/Life? I don't think so.
  16. ArcturusV

    ArcturusV New Member

    Because no player is going to rage about random free gifts with no potential ante put up to it. Just like no player raged that Inception/March of the Machine->Shiva needed to be nerfed or it was some terrible idea.

    Though objectively we can go... "Hmm, routinely one shotting the end boss of the suppposedly hardest storyline nigh effortlessly is probably a bad thing..." when we look back at it.

    It's not to that point of course.
  17. Ghost
    • Warden

    Ghost Warden

    People did talk about how shiva was OP in that regard, myself included.

    We also found the extra 32 talent thing problematic.

    The DT (in limitation) and extra lives however are very rare and have little impact unless you get several of them (and really just the DT, more extra lives doesn't change much besides make people happy). So there isn't really a need to change it for the sake to aligning with a document that says "this is how it should be"
  18. Maniac

    Maniac Member

    How BORING, if theres no such chance or luck and EVERYTHING IS SO PREDICTABLE. Like Arcane said, its small random awards. Single DT or two DT won't make you win game in guaranteed. I think, sometimes, DT makes people somehow arrogant and let down their guard often and get teams wiped out. And.. this happens quite number of time, im afraid.
  19. Ramses II
    • Donator

    Ramses II Help, I can't change my title!

    I don't think a cap is necessary if you instead give a bonus level instead of a bonus talent point. It removes the ability to snowball massively as it takes a ton of experience to get to level 10, 11, 12, etc. It would give consistency with the new cp bonus, and make it clear that level 5 is tier 2, 9 is tier 3, 11 is blacked out tree, etc.
  20. ArcanePariah
    • Development Team
    • Map Developer

    ArcanePariah Miracle Worker

    Perhaps but then you have the same issue as the changed CP: That a DT amounts to nothing more then exp gain (which is acquired just as easily by whoring more), except in this case, the a DT at start benefits you far LESS at beginning where you can easily level as opposed to getting a DT at say, lvl 9, where the bump is a HUGE jump in XP. That may be a good thing, make the bonus grow ever stronger late game, but I'm not sure a bonus that changes as the game progresses is a good thing, for the same reason the new CP is considered terribad.

    As for snowball massively, I've heard this brought up a number of times, and I must ask: Does no one use restraint and focus on leveling their team and is it all about acquire every skill and whore mercilessly with them? I quite honestly don't understand how organized teams of any sort permit one person to super level, then once they have their T3, let them to continue killing/exp gain at the same pace at the expense of the team overall leveling. There is no single character who is so important that they MUST have their entire tree blacked out before others have T3.

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