Change the double talent points from intelligence

Discussion in 'NOTD Discussion' started by Ramses II, May 6, 2012.

  1. Ramses II
    • Donator

    Ramses II Help, I can't change my title!

    Currently, dt chance from intelligence have a huge chance to either not impact a game at all or completely screw with the dynamics. First of all, there's only a 25.4% chance of getting a double talent point in the first nine levels (getting to your tier 3). This means that 3/4 games you get nothing from it, while 1/4 games you get a huge bonus.

    In addition, from time to time you have a game where you get 2, 3, 4 double talent points in a game, completely breaking it open. On a dps class such as the opsmando, 3-4 dts, especially early game, will get you pretty damn close to double T3s. The same is true of recons and medics with their massive xp share.

    I'm mainly protesting the inconsistency and extreme luck involved in the system, with the potential to wreck games and also the potential to do basically nothing.

    I suggest doing what was done with the cp bonus: change it from a bonus talent point with one level to a bonus level in addition to one level. (ex: you fill the xp bar from level 4 and it puts you up to level 6 instead of 5) This keeps it from snowballing as easily, and wrecking a major aspect of the game.

    To compensate, increase the chance from .4% per point to about .6% or so. This increases the chance of getting a dl (double level) to 35.9% by level 9. This is primarily to make intelligence actually come into play more often in a game and to keep people from qqing.

    Not really sure whether this would end up averaging out to a nerf or a buff, anyone want to try to figure it out?
  2. Osaze

    Osaze Well-Known Member

    hmmm interesting idea, I never truly thought that the chance for a dt was nescessary due to the fact you had to make the game harder to keep the better players from owning the game when they get multiple dts

    A bad player still sucks even if he gets dt's and a normal player is usually hampered by the quality of his teammates. Its the good players that the difficulty is built around, and its the good players that gaint he most from dt.

    just remove it all together.

  3. Kith
    • Development Team
    • Designer

    Kith NOTD Staff: Anti-Fun Wizard Skeleton

    I get intelligence because of the energy increase. I don't care about the double talent. I'm actually working on Stat Points right now as part of the next K Report, bundling them with the one focused on Items. One of the things I was aiming to do with Endurance was get rid of the extra lives thing, and I was toying with the idea of doing away with the Double Talent chance and instead putting in an energy regeneration buff. I'm honestly pretty tired of the random chance shenanigans. Pretty much the only random chance shenanigans that I'm interested in seeing is Critical Strike, because it makes sense in context, and also because it's a very widely accepted gameplay mechanic that shows up in many, many places.
  4. ArcturusV

    ArcturusV New Member

    Wait, I can get Extra Lives? xP

    Yeah, that's stupid. I can have 9 in Endurance for 10 games in a row and not see an Extra Life. Like Kith said, I do use Intelligence for Energy, not random Talent Chances where I might get one every 6th game. I don't mind the random Critical Strike on Perception however. But I think I could be fine with Endurance Lives and Intelligence Bonus Talents getting axed.

    Maybe instead having something like: Endurance: 1% resistance to Ailments per point. e.g. A Ghoul having a 20% chance to inflict Venom on a hit. With 9 Endurance it has only an 11% chance to.

    Intelligence: Fine with it losing the Bonus Talent chance, and not really getting anything else. The extra energy is pretty powerful. If there is a huge demand for something else though... maybe something like .3 Casting Range increase on Abilities.
  5. Hongbearr

    Hongbearr New Member

    I think the +energy and +energy regen should be good enough as a bonus.

    If anybody thinks that's too much of a nerf, how about +energy, +energy regen and an extra 1% experience bonus per point?
  6. Kith
    • Development Team
    • Designer

    Kith NOTD Staff: Anti-Fun Wizard Skeleton

    Because then it would become, hands down, the best stat in the game. Energy/Energy Regen would be fine. Fiddling with leveling rates in any way beyond the Level 2 CP Bonus is something that bothers me a lot.
  7. ArcturusV

    ArcturusV New Member

    I was actually considering something like "Increased Squad XP" when I posted above. But on reflection I decided not to suggest it.


    As things currently stand, most players seem to think that Intelligence is the clearly superior stat. If you are only going to put points into one stat, unless you're an Assault, it will be Intelligence. This isn't just because extra energy is a huge boon (And it is), but also because of the Bonus Talent chance and how much it can break a game open if you are lucky, as Ozy said.

    If you remove the Bonus Talent, but increase XP gain instead, you still have a Clearly Superior stat. Gaining levels will always be more useful than 10 HP, or .5 Detection Range, etc. It will still be the clearly superior stat for most players.

    If it's just Energy, and maybe something minor like the Casting Range, it becomes useful, but not as immediately clearly so. Most people won't really think twice about casting range. But this does effect things like... a Medic being able to Nano-Weave a tank during Seth without being in Polarity Damage range. Effectively increases the AoE of a Monofiliment Cartridge Shot. Would make the Flamethrower class a bit more effective.
  8. SirGalahad

    SirGalahad New Member

    I think that energy regen would be potentially overpowered unless it is percentage based. If it is a set amount per stat point, even small gains in energy regen will be very powerful on classes with low base energy regen, such as the combat engineer.

    Casting range is a pretty nice idea. It works pretty well as an additional minor benefit to the primary one (+energy).

    If we are changing the stat point bonuses, may we please properly move the weight tolerance bonus to Strength? It's bizarre that it is linked to Endurance despite the descriptions.
  9. Kith
    • Development Team
    • Designer

    Kith NOTD Staff: Anti-Fun Wizard Skeleton

    This is why I save everything for one thread - everyone always comes up with the same shit that I do.

    The current projection is this (no numbers yet because I'm still figuring those out and I don't want people to throw a bitchfit)

    Strength - Hitpoints and Weight
    Endurance - Health Regeneration and Ailment Resistance
    Agility - Movement Speed and Reload Reduction
    Perception - Sight/Detection and Critical Strike
    Intelligence - Energy maximum and Energy regeneration

    Either it's going to be .22 or .15 at 9 Int. Not sure yet. Still have to figure out what the proper balancing is in regards to having it replace the Double Talent chance.

    Oh, and, Endurance's health regeneration is going to be worth a shit.
  10. Jercy

    Jercy Well-Known Member

    Isn't it already? I know I consider it to be hands down the best talent, and a lot of the people I consider to be vets believe the same.

    I like the way it is right now. Yeah sure getting a whole bunch of dts can break the game,b ut its not like it happens every single game. It only happens occasionally and when it does its fun and enjoyable which is an aspect of the game I like. Having the occasional game where you become massively overpowered is awesome and fun for everyone. Plus I hardly ever get a dt, so I don't think it is a big issue really and doesn't really have a huge impact on the game. I think the dt on intelligence should be left in.
  11. Zuriel

    Zuriel Well-Known Member

    Do consider allowing whatever stat bonus to stack with existing equipment:augments/skills.

    Ie. Perception should stack with things like occ, scope etc.
  12. Kith
    • Development Team
    • Designer

    Kith NOTD Staff: Anti-Fun Wizard Skeleton

    You think everything should be left in, Darcy. Look, the DT thing can make or break games. Either things suddenly become way easier or people get overconfident and die, neither of which are smart or good in any capacity.

    Also, Zuriel, they're supposed to stack.
  13. Lord NiteShade
    • Wiki Founder
    • Community Leader

    Lord NiteShade NOTD Staff: Wiki Founder/TeamSpeak Admin

    Jercys just set in his ways. If it aint broke dont fix it. Problem is, its been broken so long people forgot it was broken. Go into the archive and dig up all the rage when that was added. It always has been both overpowered and broken, theres just no one left who remembers, or cares.
  14. Ghost
    • Warden

    Ghost Warden

    Whether something is broken or not depends on who you ask and for notd is very grey.

    I do think that changes to stat in this respect are better off in the main than bo forum.

    Doing away with just about anything chance based is A) streamlining and B) turning the game more stale because C) every game will be the same if you use the same tactic which you will.

    That said, some of you advocating removing lives from endurance were still saying keep it in some days ago with the change to ms bonus for rating. I do feel that many of the small changes turn the game ever more towards something more arcady as well as AMish

    One thing I would agree with is to cap the max DT per game to say 3 or cap at 2 and give another bonus to INT.

    Keep the bonus lives from endurance as they are.
  15. Zuriel

    Zuriel Well-Known Member

    ^keeping the bonus lives from endurance is silly. It will be more likely to cause people to be overconfident and facetank than double talents.

    Every player would want free stuff. Like free lives or free talents, myself included. But let's standardise our stand on this freebie issue and not make half-assed decisions.
  16. Ghost
    • Warden

    Ghost Warden

    If people become overconfident and die, they learn.

    Turning the argument around, giving people ms as they lose lives causes them to be overly cautious and run away from things and avoid hits.

    See what I did there?

    The question is, what is Ability's vision of what should be encouraged or indeed, whether things should be equally/similarly worthwhile.

    If people want to play recklessly and take hits or otherwise just aren't good enough to avoid getting hit, they are getting fewer benefits than those who avoid getting hit.
    This is a relic from AM, and not necessarily how SC ought to be like. However recent changes have moved the game from a balance where playstyle was free and neither was encouraged towards the AM system of "why do you need hp/lives? you shouldn't get hit anyway"
  17. Zuriel

    Zuriel Well-Known Member

    Isn't what we're doing now making the game balanced and fair for all?

    Bonus talents can screw games up as easily as free lives. Just remove this variable and we won't have ramboing players thinking they can afford to lose a life since they got a free one.

    Experienced players will continue to avoid taking hits and sticking to the team, rambos will be less likely to do stupid things just cos they have a free ride.

    Its an even better way to teach people not to take hits than what you're suggesting, ghost.
  18. Ghost
    • Warden

    Ghost Warden

    Having any lives does not equate to "greater chance of facetanking".

    Taking hits reduces rating, does not mean that "you must always avoid taking hits or you are a noob".

    Dying is obviously bad, but people even those with lives who have been playing NOTD for a while know not to rely on the extra life to proc or safe you. However it is nice to have and it is a benefit of putting stat points into endurance - reward for playing and surviving long enough to get points to put into the stat in the first place.

    Let players play like they want to without penalizing/benefiting any particular style as long as they perform the mission objectives and help teammates.

    Like I said, I can see a reasoning to cap bonus talents from intelligence, but I see no good reason why endurance should not give bonus lives other than "you shouldn't get hit anyway noob" which really is a poor attitude IMO and removes player choice.
  19. Blaqk
    • Development Team
    • Webmaster/Ops

    Blaqk NOTD Staff: Operations and Web

    I disagree with this statement. People who die from overconfidence don't learn because they weren't really paying attention to begin with.
  20. Zuriel

    Zuriel Well-Known Member

    Good players are going to have 1 or no lives to begin with, and if shit happens they die anyway. We shouldn't breed a sense of complacency with the free lives.
    How does disabling the chance to get a free life "removing players choice"? The main point of endurance is the HP regen. Its not every game that extra lives are given, so that is just the icing on top of the cake.

    Not a poor attitude, but more of a practical and logical one.

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